Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

I tried reading one of the novels once but I'd just started and read a review that said it was Weir-lite, so I realised it was nothing I'd be interested in.


They just keep giving us the finger, don't they? Meh, I only needed to read a couple reviews to know this glorified badfic was not something I needed to bother with.


EW, that's so corny it gives me second-hand embarrassment. I'm cringing just reading about it, lol.


Thank god there was at least one good soul with common sense in that crew.

Sing it, sistah!

[JT-2]

I've read a few of the novels.

Casualties of War was pretty good. Nice plot. Good characterization for the most part. Reading it distracted me enough to not have a complete panic attack on a flight home from Georgia, so that means it was pretty good.

Mirror, Mirror had the most Sparky fun. It was confusing for the first few chapters but if you keep going it'll all make sense. And like SR said, Sparky's together through most of the book and while it's not outright ship, it's the same level as on the show. Take of that what you will.

I've read the Rising novelization also. There were some good bits where John was reflecting on how he liked Elizabeth as a person. And of course, that bit at the end made me gape when I read it and just thank my lucky stars that the episode ended the way it actually ended - with an iconic screen shot of our duo on the balcony.

I started to read Blood Ties but found it dreadful, mainly focusing on an original character who was such a Mary Sue she put Carter to shame. (Sorry, I had to do it.)

As for the new novels, I want them to LEAVE ELIZABETH ALONE!!! I've read that woman's fanfic and she treats Elizabeth horribly (besides the fact that she can't write worth ****). You can not like a character but still treat the character properly in fic (see SGA Rising with Keller). You can also treat a ship you hate properly (see Box of Dreams). If you need to treat a rival for your OTP's affections with such canon-breaking, open hostility then you are not confident enough of your own ship. I've read enough McShep/Sheyla written fic where they bash Elizabeth to the point where it is clearly and absolutely not in canon. You know they do it because they think Sparky was actually the intended ship (plenty of them have admitted to this in various forums). If you were truly confident that your ship is in love, and meant to be, and all that - then why do you feel the need to bash other characters? Sorry for the rant. That's an issue that bugs the crap out of me.

[Sparky She-Demon]

So.... Avoid Blood Ties?

[Luz]

If you write a book that's supposed to be a sanctioned continuation of a tv series, be a pro. If only a tiny portion of fandom will be able to enjoy it because it's not canon compliant and massive amounts of character assassination were needed because you couldn't leave your shipper bias at the door, then you are doing a lousy job.

[mandogater]

I've had back problems since college (which was a long, long time ago for me ), so I hear ya.

Sparky invalids assemble!

I'm ready!!!! *Shakes walker in the air*

[Sequoia Hope]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is a possibility of 2 more legacy books. They are waiting for the decision by MGM even as we speak. The first will be called "Unascended" and from what I hear will most likely be

Spoiler:

about Elizabeth, since I believe they had her descend in the series or at least wrote that she had ascended.

This is not good news for her fans.

I have read Mirror Mirror, which I found very Sparky as

Spoiler:

John and Elizabeth were together for most of it. They were careful to not hint at any romance though.

Otherwise, it was exciting and I enjoyed it. Mr. SR read it and thought it jumped around so much as to be confusing. I thought the characterization, with a few minor glitches like Rodney liking lemon cake, was good. I would love to have seen this one on screen.

I also read Reliquary and enjoyed it though I don't remember many details. I don't think any of the books have any Sparky ship, or any other for that matter.

I read the novelization of Rising also, which pretty much follows the script right up to the end where

Spoiler:

instead of staying on the balcony with Elizabeth, John is led away by the hand by Teyla.

Spoiler:

Interesting change, wouldn't you say.

Now I wonder why that happened.

I didn't know that scene was part of the original script. I'm kind of horrified that it was. Whatever the reason the producers took it out, I'm glad they did.

I've read a few of the novels.

Casualties of War was pretty good. Nice plot. Good characterization for the most part. Reading it distracted me enough to not have a complete panic attack on a flight home from Georgia, so that means it was pretty good.

Mirror, Mirror had the most Sparky fun. It was confusing for the first few chapters but if you keep going it'll all make sense. And like SR said, Sparky's together through most of the book and while it's not outright ship, it's the same level as on the show. Take of that what you will.

I've read the Rising novelization also. There were some good bits where John was reflecting on how he liked Elizabeth as a person. And of course, that bit at the end made me gape when I read it and just thank my lucky stars that the episode ended the way it actually ended - with an iconic screen shot of our duo on the balcony.

I started to read Blood Ties but found it dreadful, mainly focusing on an original character who was such a Mary Sue she put Carter to shame. (Sorry, I had to do it.)

As for the new novels, I want them to LEAVE ELIZABETH ALONE!!! I've read that woman's fanfic and she treats Elizabeth horribly (besides the fact that she can't write worth ****). You can not like a character but still treat the character properly in fic (see SGA Rising with Keller). You can also treat a ship you hate properly (see Box of Dreams). If you need to treat a rival for your OTP's affections with such canon-breaking, open hostility then you are not confident enough of your own ship. I've read enough McShep/Sheyla written fic where they bash Elizabeth to the point where it is clearly and absolutely not in canon. You know they do it because they think Sparky was actually the intended ship (plenty of them have admitted to this in various forums). If you were truly confident that your ship is in love, and meant to be, and all that - then why do you feel the need to bash other characters? Sorry for the rant. That's an issue that bugs the crap out of me.

It's a well-formulated rant, though. You make some very good points here. Some people in fandom just have trouble understanding the concept of respect. We're not here to engage in arguments disputing whose ship is preeminent to all the rest; those who actually want to do so are either insecure about their own ship, as you stated, or just bored and trying to stir up trouble. But where's the fun in creating schisms in what is supposed to be enjoyable entertainment for all? If only we could just be one, big happy family - I'm sure that would make things a lot easier. But alas, that's never going to happen.

[Southern Red]

I'm ready!!!! *Shakes walker in the air*

Dude, you can lift your walker? Is that how you work out?

Some of the comments made above about canon and writing are the major reason SGA-R has tried so hard to stick with what was shown on screen, no matter how much most of us might disagree with it. We resisted the temptation to bring Elizabeth back early on and are

Spoiler:

resisting the bigger temptation now to get her and John into a relationship before enough time has passed to make it believable.

Any continuation of a series should strike the same tone as the show. That's just common sense. Those books we've been talking about are supposed to follow canon, and I think they are allowed to grow the characters and change things in a forward direction, but they can't go back and change canon. So, that brings up a question. Has the person at MGM who approves the books ever watched the show long enough to understand how it all fit together or did they just read a summary of the characters and plots? Because, to my way of thinking, anyone who thinks the Athosians are polyamorous just wasn't paying attention.

OT: We enjoy the TV show The Glades. Last week they had a plot involving polyamory, which immediately made me think of the Legacy books. LOL In fact they showed the people in committed relationships, not just wandering around on walks and making babies with casual friends. *shudders*

[ShipperWriter]

I finally got my Internet back at home, and I can now post this:

*singsongs* JT, I think you're gonna like this!

Spoiler:

"Persuasion"

The iPhone on the antique mahogany table buzzed. At first, Elizabeth thought that it was her sister's; after all, Ann had a terribly chronic habit of leaving her belongings all over the house. And despite moving into a new house, in a new city, it didn't seem that old habits were going to change.

But Elizabeth reached for her phone in the back pocket of her jeans and realized it wasn't there, and the vibrating continued, so she paced across the floor and grabbed her phone.

It wasn't a voice call, but a lengthy text message from Mary.

"Lizzie, I think I'm coming down with something. My head hurts and my nose is stuffed up. If there's any chance you could swing by and keep me company for awhile, I would really like that. But if you can't, you know, I understand. I'm sure there is something more exciting for you to do than hang out with your sick sister. Oh well. Let me know."

Elizabeth hung her head and groaned. Mary had been a hypochondriac since she was a child, ever since she found out that it was the best way to get their mother to pay attention to her. Even after their mother's death and their entrance into adulthood, it had not lessened. Elizabeth was frequently finding herself feeling pity for Charlie, as well as amazement that he had been able to sanely bear it this long.

Without replying, she slid the phone back in her pocket.

Then someone knocked at the door.

Her eyes darted to the mess in the entryway. Knowing that Ann probably expected her sister to clean it up, she sighed and made her way to the door.

When John Sheppard looked up at her with sad hazel eyes, she almost took a step back. "John."

He nodded at her, wringing his hands. "You got a minute?"

"Umm, sure." She backed up just far enough for him to walk in the doorway. "Sorry about the mess."

"Don't worry about it. I'm only here as a favor to Sophie and Edward. Can we talk?"

Elizabeth gestured to the empty dining room.

He walked in and paced to the end of the table, sighing heavily before turning around. "I don't know how else to say this than to just spit it out, so here goes. Sophie heard that you and Wallace were getting married."

Elizabeth gasped as quietly as she could.

Apparently it wasn't quiet enough as John gritted his teeth. "And they're under the impression that he wants you to live back in Kellynch after the wedding. So they sent me to ask if this true. And if it is, they'll start looking for a new place immediately."

Her jaw hung open for a moment. "I ... I don't know what to say."

John cocked his head to the side. "Yes or no would suffice."

Elizabeth shook her head. "Yes. I mean, no."

God, why was it so hard to concentrate when he was around?

"I don't know who told Sophie that, but no. I'm not engaged. And I'm definitely not marrying Simon."

His eyes widened. "You're... not?"

"No," she quietly replied, finally raising her head to meet his gaze.

And for the first time in years, she saw hope.

The door rapidly opened and shut behind her, and she saw the familiar mask cross John's face, which meant it was probably only one of two people.

"Elizabeth?" an unwelcome voice asked from behind her.

Her eyes closed and she sighed.

Diana Russell walked around her and shot a harsh glare at John. "I apologize for interrupting your conversation, but I really need to speak with Elizabeth."

"Can't it wait?" Elizabeth asked, refusing to take need eyes off of John's.

He held up a hand. "It's all right, I need to get back to Sophie's anyway," he said by way of farewell, carefully winding his way around the table to get to the door.

Elizabeth waited until he was closest to her, then leaned towards him. "Can we talk later?"

He nodded quickly. "Yeah, I think we should."

The door hadn't even shut behind him before Diana started speaking. "So it's true? Simon proposed?"

Elizabeth nodded, even though she didn't want to. The thought of being married to him, though at one time attractive, was now causing her stomach to turn.

"He did, but I didn't say yes."

Her godmother's eyebrows rose in disbelief. "You turned him down?"

"No. He didn't give me enough time to."

Diana scoffed and threw her arms up. "I don't believe this. You would turn down the first man to ask for your hand in marriage?"

"The first reputable man, you mean," Elizabeth retorted, placing her hands on her hips as she glared back. "You know full well he wasn't the first."

Angrily, Diana raised her hand and pointed an accusatory finger at her. "Don't even go there. That was eight years ago."

"Yes, it was. We were both young, and eight years ago was not the right time to get married." She raised her eyes to meet Diana's and frowned angrily at her. "But he is the same man today that he was then. Tell me, was there anything you found objectionable about him aside from his lack of fortune?"

Diana began to reply, but the look on her face was one that she had seen on her father's a thousand times whenever he would begin discussing his disdain of anybody in the military.

So Elizabeth cut in.

"And don't even think about using the 'military makes them heroes when they're not' argument. That had absolutely nothing to do with it then, and it doesn't now."

Diana's jaw snapped shut and she ran a hand through her short blonde hair. "Elizabeth, you know that I have always looked out for you like you were my own daughter. But I could never have lived with myself, knowing that I supported a match that you would've regretted in the years to come. And you finally came around to understand as well, if I recall correctly."

"I never came around," Elizabeth spat out with a vehemence she didn't realize she had. "You, and my father, and Ann, and Mary, everyone did everything in their power to persuade me that it was wrong. And I finally gave in because I didn't like the feeling of knowing that my family, and my closest friend, were against me." She stopped walking, not even realizing that she had been pacing around the room, and turned to look at Diana. "But that was a long time ago, and I've seen more than my fair share of hypocrisy in the world since then. I've watched as my sister dismissed me as nothing more than a servant. My father started dating a woman who has nothing to her name, except for the fact that she is loaded and fertile. And you encourage a match between me and Simon, knowing full well that he is the last man in the world that I would ever want to marry."

Diana set her jaw rigidly and narrowed her eyes. It was obvious that she did not like her goddaughter regaling her of all the bad conduct of her family over the course of the last eight years, but Elizabeth didn't care anymore. She was done being told what to do by people who did not have her best interests at heart.

"So if you don't mind, I have a social appointment to keep with Charlie's mother, and I don't want to be late." And with that, she snatched her coat off a chair and marched out the door, allowing herself a small smirk as it slammed shut behind her.

[Erin87]

Hello all! *waves*

*facepalm at all the Legacy books* Never ever ever.

I finally got my Internet back at home, and I can now post this:

*singsongs* JT, I think you're gonna like this!

Spoiler:

"Persuasion"

The iPhone on the antique mahogany table buzzed. At first, Elizabeth thought that it was her sister's; after all, Ann had a terribly chronic habit of leaving her belongings all over the house. And despite moving into a new house, in a new city, it didn't seem that old habits were going to change.

But Elizabeth reached for her phone in the back pocket of her jeans and realized it wasn't there, and the vibrating continued, so she paced across the floor and grabbed her phone.

It wasn't a voice call, but a lengthy text message from Mary.

"Lizzie, I think I'm coming down with something. My head hurts and my nose is stuffed up. If there's any chance you could swing by and keep me company for awhile, I would really like that. But if you can't, you know, I understand. I'm sure there is something more exciting for you to do than hang out with your sick sister. Oh well. Let me know."

Elizabeth hung her head and groaned. Mary had been a hypochondriac since she was a child, ever since she found out that it was the best way to get their mother to pay attention to her. Even after their mother's death and their entrance into adulthood, it had not lessened. Elizabeth was frequently finding herself feeling pity for Charlie, as well as amazement that he had been able to sanely bear it this long.

Without replying, she slid the phone back in her pocket.

Then someone knocked at the door.

Her eyes darted to the mess in the entryway. Knowing that Ann probably expected her sister to clean it up, she sighed and made her way to the door.

When John Sheppard looked up at her with sad hazel eyes, she almost took a step back. "John."

He nodded at her, wringing his hands. "You got a minute?"

"Umm, sure." She backed up just far enough for him to walk in the doorway. "Sorry about the mess."

"Don't worry about it. I'm only here as a favor to Sophie and Edward. Can we talk?"

Elizabeth gestured to the empty dining room.

He walked in and paced to the end of the table, sighing heavily before turning around. "I don't know how else to say this than to just spit it out, so here goes. Sophie heard that you and Wallace were getting married."

Elizabeth gasped as quietly as she could.

Apparently it wasn't quiet enough as John gritted his teeth. "And they're under the impression that he wants you to live back in Kellynch after the wedding. So they sent me to ask if this true. And if it is, they'll start looking for a new place immediately."

Her jaw hung open for a moment. "I ... I don't know what to say."

John cocked his head to the side. "Yes or no would suffice."

Elizabeth shook her head. "Yes. I mean, no."

God, why was it so hard to concentrate when he was around?

"I don't know who told Sophie that, but no. I'm not engaged. And I'm definitely not marrying Simon."

His eyes widened. "You're... not?"

"No," she quietly replied, finally raising her head to meet his gaze.

And for the first time in years, she saw hope.

The door rapidly opened and shut behind her, and she saw the familiar mask cross John's face, which meant it was probably only one of two people.

"Elizabeth?" an unwelcome voice asked from behind her.

Her eyes closed and she sighed.

Diana Russell walked around her and shot a harsh glare at John. "I apologize for interrupting your conversation, but I really need to speak with Elizabeth."

"Can't it wait?" Elizabeth asked, refusing to take need eyes off of John's.

He held up a hand. "It's all right, I need to get back to Sophie's anyway," he said by way of farewell, carefully winding his way around the table to get to the door.

Elizabeth waited until he was closest to her, then leaned towards him. "Can we talk later?"

He nodded quickly. "Yeah, I think we should."

The door hadn't even shut behind him before Diana started speaking. "So it's true? Simon proposed?"

Elizabeth nodded, even though she didn't want to. The thought of being married to him, though at one time attractive, was now causing her stomach to turn.

"He did, but I didn't say yes."

Her godmother's eyebrows rose in disbelief. "You turned him down?"

"No. He didn't give me enough time to."

Diana scoffed and threw her arms up. "I don't believe this. You would turn down the first man to ask for your hand in marriage?"

"The first reputable man, you mean," Elizabeth retorted, placing her hands on her hips as she glared back. "You know full well he wasn't the first."

Angrily, Diana raised her hand and pointed an accusatory finger at her. "Don't even go there. That was eight years ago."

"Yes, it was. We were both young, and eight years ago was not the right time to get married." She raised her eyes to meet Diana's and frowned angrily at her. "But he is the same man today that he was then. Tell me, was there anything you found objectionable about him aside from his lack of fortune?"

Diana began to reply, but the look on her face was one that she had seen on her father's a thousand times whenever he would begin discussing his disdain of anybody in the military.

So Elizabeth cut in.

"And don't even think about using the 'military makes them heroes when they're not' argument. That had absolutely nothing to do with it then, and it doesn't now."

Diana's jaw snapped shut and she ran a hand through her short blonde hair. "Elizabeth, you know that I have always looked out for you like you were my own daughter. But I could never have lived with myself, knowing that I supported a match that you would've regretted in the years to come. And you finally came around to understand as well, if I recall correctly."

"I never came around," Elizabeth spat out with a vehemence she didn't realize she had. "You, and my father, and Ann, and Mary, everyone did everything in their power to persuade me that it was wrong. And I finally gave in because I didn't like the feeling of knowing that my family, and my closest friend, were against me." She stopped walking, not even realizing that she had been pacing around the room, and turned to look at Diana. "But that was a long time ago, and I've seen more than my fair share of hypocrisy in the world since then. I've watched as my sister dismissed me as nothing more than a servant. My father started dating a woman who has nothing to her name, except for the fact that she is loaded and fertile. And you encourage a match between me and Simon, knowing full well that he is the last man in the world that I would ever want to marry."

Diana set her jaw rigidly and narrowed her eyes. It was obvious that she did not like her goddaughter regaling her of all the bad conduct of her family over the course of the last eight years, but Elizabeth didn't care anymore. She was done being told what to do by people who did not have her best interests at heart.

"So if you don't mind, I have a social appointment to keep with Charlie's mother, and I don't want to be late." And with that, she snatched her coat off a chair and marched out the door, allowing herself a small smirk as it slammed shut behind her.

Wheee! AWESOME. The summer heat must be melting my brain b/c the whole John/Wentworth military men parallel didn't even register when you first mentioned this. But it works so well.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

Some of the comments made above about canon and writing are the major reason SGA-R has tried so hard to stick with what was shown on screen, no matter how much most of us might disagree with it. We resisted the temptation to bring Elizabeth back early on and are

Spoiler:

resisting the bigger temptation now to get her and John into a relationship before enough time has passed to make it believable.

Any continuation of a series should strike the same tone as the show. That's just common sense. Those books we've been talking about are supposed to follow canon, and I think they are allowed to grow the characters and change things in a forward direction, but they can't go back and change canon. So, that brings up a question. Has the person at MGM who approves the books ever watched the show long enough to understand how it all fit together or did they just read a summary of the characters and plots? Because, to my way of thinking, anyone who thinks the Athosians are polyamorous just wasn't paying attention.

OT: We enjoy the TV show The Glades. Last week they had a plot involving polyamory, which immediately made me think of the Legacy books. LOL In fact they showed the people in committed relationships, not just wandering around on walks and making babies with casual friends. *shudders*

This. All of this, so hard. With Atlantis Rising, we set out to create stories that any fan could read and enjoy, and be able to say, "I can see this happening on the TV show." A good, well-written media tie-in should feel like it just stepped out of the TV/movie theater and into the book (or in our case, website). I still find it rather telling to note that the first Stargate novel to win a Scribe Award (given out at Comic-Con by the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers) is still also the only one to have ever won; that would be Casualties of War by Elizabeth Christensen back in 2008. If a jury of their author peers can't find the newer Stargate novels worthy of even a nomination, that's saying something.

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!



This. All of this, so hard. With Atlantis Rising, we set out to create stories that any fan could read and enjoy, and be able to say, "I can see this happening on the TV show." A good, well-written media tie-in should feel like it just stepped out of the TV/movie theater and into the book (or in our case, website). I still find it rather telling to note that the first Stargate novel to win a Scribe Award (given out at Comic-Con by the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers) is still also the only one to have ever won; that would be Casualties of War by Elizabeth Christensen back in 2008. If a jury of their author peers can't find the newer Stargate novels worthy of even a nomination, that's saying something.

I didn't know that. You would think an authorized tie-in series would at least by nominated. Wow. That's telling.

[ShipperWriter]

Hello all! *waves*

*facepalm at all the Legacy books* Never ever ever.

Wheee! AWESOME. The summer heat must be melting my brain b/c the whole John/Wentworth military men parallel didn't even register when you first mentioned this. But it works so well.

Thanks!!!

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Fluffy Thursday!

This. All of this, so hard. With Atlantis Rising, we set out to create stories that any fan could read and enjoy, and be able to say, "I can see this happening on the TV show." A good, well-written media tie-in should feel like it just stepped out of the TV/movie theater and into the book (or in our case, website). I still find it rather telling to note that the first Stargate novel to win a Scribe Award (given out at Comic-Con by the International Association of Media Tie-In Writers) is still also the only one to have ever won; that would be Casualties of War by Elizabeth Christensen back in 2008. If a jury of their author peers can't find the newer Stargate novels worthy of even a nomination, that's saying something.

That's amazing, and so worth it. I'm sincerely jealous of her writing style, and it is a good book. Still re-reading it right now. It portrays Sparky exactly the way that we saw on screen: a partnership, a team, two people that had to come together unexpectedly and made the decision to work together and support each other. And there may be a moment in the book when they touch hands for a little while that made my inner fangirl squee but anyhow.

[Luz]

That's amazing, and so worth it. I'm sincerely jealous of her writing style, and it is a good book. Still re-reading it right now. It portrays Sparky exactly the way that we saw on screen: a partnership, a team, two people that had to come together unexpectedly and made the decision to work together and support each other. And there may be a moment in the book when they touch hands for a little while that made my inner fangirl squee but anyhow.

You're making me want to read it. Lately I've been craving friendship pieces that resemble the dynamics on the show, more than romance. So this sounds right up my alley.

[ShipperWriter]

You're making me want to read it. Lately I've been craving friendship pieces that resemble the dynamics on the show, more than romance. So this sounds right up my alley.

Do it!

And I was browsing while my mom's getting ready to go to the doctor (she's had this insufferable shoulder pain for a few days that hasn't even allowed her to sleep), I found this little gem from KrisRussel. It's fantastic!!!

[Sparky She-Demon]