Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Brie]

I so agree with what you wrote Luz.

I agree with this 100%. It didn't make sense given the prior canon characters. But then, everything Joe Mallozzi was in charge of and wrote didn't make much sense, particularly after Cooper and Wright left him free reign.

There was a lot of things that didn’t make any sense once JM took over which sucks, he should have never been allowed to have any kind of free rein over SGA ever.

True, it was like S4-5 started all over and none of the old canon was left. Plus, especially in S5, the stories just got more and more juvenile. Trio, Brainstorm...OMG. If not for Vegas, there would have been no hope. And I guess there wasn't any bright spot for the Elizabeth fans.

Yeah, it was especially hard when the series first aired and I didn’t know about all the BTS stuff and just saw what was on-screen so I spent each episode waiting for Elizabeth to come back (because based on the show I didn’t understand d why she wasn’t there), it was pretty bad, thankfully I do like most of the other characters so I did keep watching and I found some episodes that I could still enjoy even if it wasn’t the same.

That's for sure. Season 5...... OMG so much garbage after garbage. People claiming they should have cut Vegas to make Enemy at the Gate a 2 parter always make me roll my eyes. There were SO many episodes in 5 that could have been cut. But of course, that would have cut some of their Keller and McKeller love and we couldn't have that.

I do wish that they could have made ‘Enemy at the Gate’ a two-parter because it felt so rushed but to cut out ‘Vegas’ would NOT have been the way to go, I probably would have put it earlier in the season, maybe as episode 15-16 and then skip some of the pointless episodes like ‘Brainstorm’ or ‘Identity’ (which I still don’t see the point of because they came so late in the final season and they had nothing that contributed to the storyline.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday, and Happy Memorial Day to everyone here in the US!

That's for sure. Season 5...... OMG so much garbage after garbage. People claiming they should have cut Vegas to make Enemy at the Gate a 2 parter always make me roll my eyes. There were SO many episodes in 5 that could have been cut. But of course, that would have cut some of their Keller and McKeller love and we couldn't have that.

I do wish that they could have made ‘Enemy at the Gate’ a two-parter because it felt so rushed but to cut out ‘Vegas’ would NOT have been the way to go, I probably would have put it earlier in the season, maybe as episode 15-16 and then skip some of the pointless episodes like ‘Brainstorm’ or ‘Identity’ (which I still don’t see the point of because they came so late in the final season and they had nothing that contributed to the storyline.

They could've cut both Brainstorm and Identity and made Enemy at the Gate a three-part episode.

I would advise taking the opposite attitude. Watching the ones with Torri will only make the lack of her piss you off more. Watch the ones without her knowing you won't see her with the idea of enjoying or not enjoying them on their own merit. For example, I would hate for anyone not to experience the glory that is Vegas because she's not in it. The Teyla/Ronon fans couldn't seem to get past their absence to the point of hating it. The same could be said of GitM, which I argue is even more Sparky because it isn't her. The fact that John is so affected by the mere idea that this replicator is maybe her or not her and is screwing with them points to his so very deep involvement emotionally with the real her. If that makes sense.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons why I wanted to go ahead and watch the entire series for the post-a-thon, so we could watch all those Elizabeth-less episodes together, mocking the bad ones and enjoying the good ones (yay Vegas!). And of course, watching for all those wonderful little tells from John about how much he misses Elizabeth. *melts*

[Southern Red]

I so agree with what you wrote Luz.



There was a lot of things that didn’t make any sense once JM took over which sucks, he should have never been allowed to have any kind of free rein over SGA ever.



Yeah, it was especially hard when the series first aired and I didn’t know about all the BTS stuff and just saw what was on-screen so I spent each episode waiting for Elizabeth to come back (because based on the show I didn’t understand d why she wasn’t there), it was pretty bad, thankfully I do like most of the other characters so I did keep watching and I found some episodes that I could still enjoy even if it wasn’t the same.



I do wish that they could have made ‘Enemy at the Gate’ a two-parter because it felt so rushed but to cut out ‘Vegas’ would NOT have been the way to go, I probably would have put it earlier in the season, maybe as episode 15-16 and then skip some of the pointless episodes like ‘Brainstorm’ or ‘Identity’ (which I still don’t see the point of because they came so late in the final season and they had nothing that contributed to the storyline.

It was obvious with those and others like Infection that they had run out of ideas and/or weren't even trying to come up with ideas that didn't feature Keller as a damsel in distress or put her front and center with a side dish of McKeller for good measure. By this time, the writers had admitted that they loved writing for McKay above all else, JF had been cut out of the loop and Sheppard had been reduced to Rodney's sidekick with limited intelligence. But I may just be a little bitter. Oh, and Ronon was back to being a caveman. I won't mention Teyla because frankly, the less of her the better, but I understand if her fans wanted more.

[Luz]

I was catching up (altho I did skip the post-a-thon snark)...and I'm one of those Torri/Elizabeth fans who still hasn't worked up the gumption to watch past Lifeline. I have the whole set of DVDs, treated myself last summer when Amazon had them for a super amazing price, but just haven't been able to bring myself to watch. I dunno if I can do SGA w/out Torri. I'll have to start a rewatch and work my way up...and maybe just watch the last two seasons real quick-like....

The one thing I *don't* worry about is feeling/seeing the sparkyness....I know that'll still be there, me being a hopeless romantic and all

I have to agree with SR. I tried the full re-watch but it only made it worse and now I'm even more pissed off and I don't think I'll ever be able to give seasons 4 and 5 a fair chance. But hey, it's not like tptb gave Weir and her fans a fair chance, so whatever.

I do want to at least watch TMC and GitM. Also, Vegas because everyone keeps talking about what a good episode it is and Joe said it was his favorite and I love Joe, so I might watch it for him.

I won't even get into the discussion about the guy with the food blog. I don't know how permissive the forum is about criticism of tptb and I don't want to get in trouble because I have nothing positive to say about food blog guy.

[JT-2]

You used it wrong, but I completely missed it, so what does that say about me? Don't worry though, it's a common error and grammarians even argue about it. You give a horse "free rein" to run, so that's the most common and accepted use. But you might argue that a ruler is given "free reign" to run the country. I could make a sentence about the current administration in the US to illustrate, but let's not get political and spoil everyone's day.

Yeah, that was the argument I had in my head about which word to use. Cause you could say he reigned as he was in charge of the show, but then the other word fit too.

And let's not get into politics, because I'll make arguments back at you about other administrations and we would have a big fight and it wouldn't be pretty. I love ya anyway, SR. 1bighug.jpg




Oh, and I could basically quote everyone on this page and agree with them. "Identity", "Brain Storm", "Tracker"... those could all go. But then those were all Keller and McKeller ones, so there you go. I also didn't care for the Daniel eps because of the nastiness towards John, and Daniel didn't really seem Daniel-ish to me. He was mean spirited. I didn't like it. Plus the whole thing made it so clear who TPTW thought was really the star of the show - Rodney. Now, I really do like Rodney but I don't like how he is overused and how his characterization seems to fluctuate so wildly. FH's screen time count actually proved that Rodney had more screen time in season 5 than John. Only by a small amount, but it shouldn't have even been close. John is the lead. Not Rodney.

[Luz]

Oh, and I could basically quote everyone on this page and agree with them. "Identity", "Brain Storm", "Tracker"... those could all go. But then those were all Keller and McKeller ones, so there you go. I also didn't care for the Daniel eps because of the nastiness towards John, and Daniel didn't really seem Daniel-ish to me. He was mean spirited. I didn't like it. Plus the whole thing made it so clear who TPTW thought was really the star of the show - Rodney. Now, I really do like Rodney but I don't like how he is overused and how his characterization seems to fluctuate so wildly. FH's screen time count actually proved that Rodney had more screen time in season 5 than John. Only by a small amount, but it shouldn't have even been close. John is the lead. Not Rodney.

It's weird how the animosity against Sheppard seeped into what we saw on screen. And I'm speaking of seasons 1-3, but from what I've heard it actually got worse.

Usually my problem with tv is that male protagonists are put on a pedestal by tptb. They can do no wrong, even when they're the worst of the worst the audience is supposed to side with them and understand them no matter what. It irks me and it's one of the reasons why I've gradually stopped watching as much tv as I used to. I got tired of the glorification of the male protagonist.

But with SGA it was the other side of the coin. TPTB had a gorgeous charismatic male protagonist, but they couldn't be bothered or worse, they hated him. I'm convinced every bit of character development Sheppard had was because of the man playing him, Joe went beyond what was give to him and he poured a lot of effort into giving Sheppard dimension and depth because as far as tptb were concerned they just wanted him to be seen but not heard. Just stand there and look pretty.

It's so frustrating because I keep wondering what would have been of this show and these characters with someone else at the helm. Someone who appreciated the show for what it was not for whatever other show they wanted it to be. Can you imagine how someone who loved Sheppard would have written for him? How could tptb not love him? What is there not to love?

[Southern Red]

Yeah, that was the argument I had in my head about which word to use. Cause you could say he reigned as he was in charge of the show, but then the other word fit too.

And let's not get into politics, because I'll make arguments back at you about other administrations and we would have a big fight and it wouldn't be pretty. I love ya anyway, SR. [ATTACH=CONFIG]37887[/ATTACH]

And I'd have to say something about what flavor of Kool Aid you've been drinking, and we'd just confuse our foreign friends, so I'll just let it go.

Oh, and I could basically quote everyone on this page and agree with them. "Identity", "Brain Storm", "Tracker"... those could all go. But then those were all Keller and McKeller ones, so there you go. I also didn't care for the Daniel eps because of the nastiness towards John, and Daniel didn't really seem Daniel-ish to me. He was mean spirited. I didn't like it. Plus the whole thing made it so clear who TPTW thought was really the star of the show - Rodney. Now, I really do like Rodney but I don't like how he is overused and how his characterization seems to fluctuate so wildly. FH's screen time count actually proved that Rodney had more screen time in season 5 than John. Only by a small amount, but it shouldn't have even been close. John is the lead. Not Rodney.

Oh yes, I forgot the Daniel thing. It was amazing to me how badly they wrote even the SG-1 people when they came to Atlantis. Sam is a good example. I loved her on SG-1, but I didn't recognize her on SGA. And just in case anyone wonders, I love Rodney too. I saw his gentler side and sometimes felt sorry for him because of his awkwardness and how he wanted to be more like John, but it was like TPTB tried to spoil that for me. By the end, the only thing leading about John was JF's number on the call sheet.

[Brie]

Agreed. This is one of the reasons why I wanted to go ahead and watch the entire series for the post-a-thon, so we could watch all those Elizabeth-less episodes together, mocking the bad ones and enjoying the good ones (yay Vegas!). And of course, watching for all those wonderful little tells from John about how much he misses Elizabeth. *melts*

It is easier to watch them together. And I’m glad that I can be here for them.

It was obvious with those and others like Infection that they had run out of ideas and/or weren't even trying to come up with ideas that didn't feature Keller as a damsel in distress or put her front and center with a side dish of McKeller for good measure. By this time, the writers had admitted that they loved writing for McKay above all else, JF had been cut out of the loop and Sheppard had been reduced to Rodney's sidekick with limited intelligence. But I may just be a little bitter. Oh, and Ronon was back to being a caveman. I won't mention Teyla because frankly, the less of her the better, but I understand if her fans wanted more.

Mmm, I agree though I must say that I will never understand in what universe anyone would find Rodney to be all that entertaining, I mean he can be when there are other characters around who can balance him out (and by that I don’t mean Keller because she was more on his side and just kept encourage his behavior) but I mean like John or Elizabeth or even Ronon because they knew how to bring Rodney back to earth and kept him from well, getting too full of himself and getting to over the top.

[Southern Red]

It's weird how the animosity against Sheppard seeped into what we saw on screen. And I'm speaking of seasons 1-3, but from what I've heard it actually got worse.

Usually my problem with tv is that male protagonists are put on a pedestal by tptb. They can do no wrong, even when they're the worst of the worst the audience is supposed to side with them and understand them no matter what. It irks me and it's one of the reasons why I've gradually stopped watching as much tv as I used to. I got tired of the glorification of the male protagonist.

But with SGA it was the other side of the coin. TPTB had a gorgeous charismatic male protagonist, but they couldn't be bothered or worse, they hated him. I'm convinced every bit of character development Sheppard had was because of the man playing him, Joe went beyond what was give to him and he poured a lot of effort into giving Sheppard dimension and depth because as far as tptb were concerned they just wanted him to be seen but not heard. Just stand there and look pretty.

It's so frustrating because I keep wondering what would have been of this show and these characters with someone else at the helm. Someone who appreciated the show for what it was not for whatever other show they wanted it to be. Can you imagine how someone who loved Sheppard would have written for him? How could tptb not love him? What is there not to love?

You're looking at it the wrong way. (I'm on a roll today.) They wanted to be him, knew they never could be, remembered getting dissed by guys like him in high school and saw this as a chance for revenge by making him look stupid, immoral and/or weak in some way while pretending to portray him as the hero. They deliberately kept him as vanilla as possible so he'd have little depth. From some things I heard, Joe wanted to show his less than perfect side but they kept saying no the hero can't be that flawed. In other words, shut up and look pretty. Joe had a whole background in his head for John, which he refuses to divulge at this point, but he says that it was totally different from what they came up with and he was surprised by the back story on John they did do in Outcast. My personal theory was that they couldn't get past Joe's own background and made that a part of John for whatever reasons. Lack of imagination comes to mind. Jealousy seems to have been a driving force. But then, I may have just extrapolated all that from a few things. By S4 it was all about holding a grudge against JF because he didn't snap to and salute every decision and actually had the nerve to argue, stand up for his co-stars and tell TPTB they were wrong at times.

[Nolamom]

[Southern Red]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/General%20Art/Academy_neverforget_nola.jpg~original

Wow, that is just stunning. And we are all proud of those young men and women. The Air Force Academy is not an easy place, and they continue to turn out outstanding officers.

[Nolamom]

[Luz]

You're looking at it the wrong way. (I'm on a roll today.) They wanted to be him, knew they never could be, remembered getting dissed by guys like him in high school and saw this as a chance for revenge by making him look stupid, immoral and/or weak in some way while pretending to portray him as the hero. They deliberately kept him as vanilla as possible so he'd have little depth. From some things I heard, Joe wanted to show his less than perfect side but they kept saying no the hero can't be that flawed. In other words, shut up and look pretty. Joe had a whole background in his head for John, which he refuses to divulge at this point, but he says that it was totally different from what they came up with and he was surprised by the back story on John they did do in Outcast. My personal theory was that they couldn't get past Joe's own background and made that a part of John for whatever reasons. Lack of imagination comes to mind. Jealousy seems to have been a driving force. But then, I may have just extrapolated all that from a few things. By S4 it was all about holding a grudge against JF because he didn't snap to and salute every decision and actually had the nerve to argue, stand up for his co-stars and tell TPTB they were wrong at times.

So, Sheppard and McKay were a revenge of the nerds? Bring down the jock while building up the geek. I can see it, it makes sense.

Though if this was their attempt at trying to make Sheppard look bad, it only made me love him more. And I kind of don't wanna know how it'd have been if they'd liked Sheppard. If it was anything like O'Neill, just urgh. If that's their version of a likeable male lead then I'd rather have them hating Sheppard.

I'm contrary, try too hard to make me like a character and I'll probably end up praying for them to be gone.

[ShipperWriter]

Oh yes, I forgot the Daniel thing. It was amazing to me how badly they wrote even the SG-1 people when they came to Atlantis. Sam is a good example. I loved her on SG-1, but I didn't recognize her on SGA. And just in case anyone wonders, I love Rodney too. I saw his gentler side and sometimes felt sorry for him because of his awkwardness and how he wanted to be more like John, but it was like TPTB tried to spoil that for me. By the end, the only thing leading about John was JF's number on the call sheet.

Jack in "The Return" felt like the Jack I knew from SG-1, but I agree. For Daniel and Sam, they seemed much different from their original selves.

As for the Daniel episodes, I only liked them because of this:

[Southern Red]

I liked the Daniel episodes only because of this:

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/.../PDVD_0163.jpg

I was thinking that earlier but didn't want to be all fangirly. Especially since I've been complaining lately about a certain FB page But anyway.

Spoiler: