Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

Love the lollipop, Nolamom.

I also prefer the team episodes, I mean I do think that there are a few great episodes with one character as the main focus such as ‘Before I sleep’ (Elizabeth) and ‘Common Ground’ (John) but we get to see a lot of the other characters and no one takes over anyone else if that make sense?

What you are saying makes perfect sense. And I am not totally against episodes in which the focus is centered in one character, once in a while i like it and don’t mind it at all, but on seasons 4 and 5 it wasn’t exactly like that. Most of the episodes begun focusing in one or two characters only, and sometimes being one of those characters someone that was not even part of the main cast, and all the other characters were completely neglected and that happened in more than one episode, one after the other. And i am against that.

But although “Common Ground” was focused on John and “Before I Sleep” was focused on Elizabeth, never the less the rest of the cast was still on the episode, i mean they interacted through out the episode as well, and that’s what i like to see, not most of the cast away from the episode.

[Luz]

So I think you should probably give it a try at watching “Missing” next weekend, although it is really not the greatest of the episodes. Don’t worry, I stopped liking Carter as soon as she “stepped foot” on SGA, and if you didn’t like her before on SG1 you for sure you would have hated her here on SGA, but I still believe and suggest you to watch all the episodes (even if fast forwarding) from seasons 4 and 5 at least once. In my opinion things got a little bit better with Woolsey, far from being perfect, but at least more bearable. From what you are describing I think you might be talking about the episode “Search and Rescue”, although that scene you are mentioning of Rodney and Keller seated on a bed, I can’t seem to place it on this episode.

I was never an SG1 fan and once regular contact with earth was established and the crossover episodes increased it got progressively worse. I hated it that in The Return II it was an SG1 character who got to save the day. And that so much of season 2 finale and season 3 premiering episodes took place at the SGC. I've never watched Grace Under Pressure, I've skimmed through and watched the scenes with Sheppard and Weir and that's it, that's how much SG1 presence on SGA bugs me. So, replacing Weir with Carter was like a slap in the face.

[Torri012]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j55/Nolamom/Shippiness/atl_416_021manip.jpgriginal

how sweet <3

[poundpuppy29]

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

I hated it that in The Return II it was an SG1 character who got to save the day.

I am not sure if I agree with that, he helped, but he didn’t exactly save the day. The plan they had to turn the shield into an ARG was McKay’s idea and that’s what actually “saved the day”.

I've never watched Grace Under Pressure, I've skimmed through and watched the scenes with Sheppard and Weir and that's it

Oh yeah, “Grace Under Pressure”, i agree with you, the only good thing on this episode were the few scenes we had in Atlantis, particularly the Sparky scenes (literally with Sparks!!).

that's how much SG1 presence on SGA bugs me.

I also dislike when SG1 references or presence happens in SGA, they should never have them mixed, at least not in the way they did. Because although we were on SGA it always seemed that the SG1 team was the greatest of all, no matter in what galaxy. In a way they seemed to imply that SGA should follow the examples or the guidance of SG1, and I really, really hated that!

[Brie]

What you are saying makes perfect sense. And I am not totally against episodes in which the focus is centered in one character, once in a while i like it and don’t mind it at all, but on seasons 4 and 5 it wasn’t exactly like that. Most of the episodes begun focusing in one or two characters only, and sometimes being one of those characters someone that was not even part of the main cast, and all the other characters were completely neglected and that happened in more than one episode, one after the other. And i am against that.

But although “Common Ground” was focused on John and “Before I Sleep” was focused on Elizabeth, never the less the rest of the cast was still on the episode, i mean they interacted through out the episode as well, and that’s what i like to see, not most of the cast away from the episode.

Oh I know what you mean, in the first three season even the McKay centered episodes had a lot of the other characters there, such as ‘Tao of Rodney’ which treated us to a lot of great Sparky and a lot of great Elizabeth moments and you like you do I missed that in season 4 and 5.

I was never an SG1 fan and once regular contact with earth was established and the crossover episodes increased it got progressively worse. I hated it that in The Return II it was an SG1 character who got to save the day. And that so much of season 2 finale and season 3 premiering episodes took place at the SGC. I've never watched Grace Under Pressure, I've skimmed through and watched the scenes with Sheppard and Weir and that's it, that's how much SG1 presence on SGA bugs me. So, replacing Weir with Carter was like a slap in the face.

I could handle crossover episodes like ‘Home’ and ‘Rising pt. 1’ during season 1 and I also didnät mind the use of Jack in ‘The Real World’ because it worked and it didn’t take over, but for me that was it, once SG-1 character became the focus on several episodes then I had about enough and I agree that there was too much of it and shouldn’t have happened at all, especially since TPTB even said that they wanted the two shows to be separate from one another and then they did what they did and had several episodes per seasons with SG-1 characters in the focus and then of course brining Carter over full time and for me if I would have wanted to watch the SG-1 characters, I would have watched SG-1 but I wanted to watch SGA and enjoy those characters so it just made me angry and resentful.

[Brie]

I saw now that they are re-airing SGA again, tonight’s episode is ‘Rising pt. 2’. They really are showing the seasons over and over again, they just finished season 5 a few weeks ago, and then they had a bit of a break and now they’re starting over again

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

Oh I know what you mean, in the first three season even the McKay centered episodes had a lot of the other characters there, such as ‘Tao of Rodney’ which treated us to a lot of great Sparky and a lot of great Elizabeth moments and you like you do I missed that in season 4 and 5.

Exactly! “Tao of Rodney” is a good example of how the episode was focused on Rodney but had all the other characters there as well.

On the other hand “Grace Under Pressure” wasn’t all that great, although we still had great Sparky moments. But never the less this episode can’t be compared to the ones from seasons 4 and 5.

if I would have wanted to watch the SG-1 characters, I would have watched SG-1 but I wanted to watch SGA and enjoy those characters so it just made me angry and resentful.

Couldn’t agree more!! Besides when they started to bring SG1 characters more into SGA, it was already on a period that SGA already had their own fans, I mean I believe that most fans of SGA are probably not that fond of SG1, or at least not as much (although I might be wrong here), and having them forcing us SG1 characters on our face like to tell us, “they are the main ones”, wasn’t right.

I guess they started bringing SG1 characters more to SGA because they were planning to end it, and they still wanted to keep the SG1 characters “alive”, but if that was the case, they should have never ended SG1! I would have preferred much more that the two shows would never have been mixed.

I saw now that they are re-airing SGA again, tonight’s episode is ‘Rising pt. 2’. They really are showing the seasons over and over again, they just finished season 5 a few weeks ago, and then they had a bit of a break and now they’re starting over again

Here they are also re-airing SGA, now season 5 is showing. I hope they will re-air it also from season 1 here, once season 5 ends.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Well, I guess I'll just have to ask for Season 4 of SGA for my birthday then.

And, PROMOTION!

[mandogater]

*rolls into the thread*

Hi there!
Just wanted to say that tonight our family goes to the country to visit our grandparents... that's quite far away from Moscow: about 800 km or so. I hope I'll be back on Sunday evening
Tough I'm not sure if I have enough time to check the forum regularly...

I wish everybody here nice week!
Please don't forget me that fast

Sounds like an interesting trip, Varda. Have fun.

[JT-2]

Hope you have a wonderful trip, Varda!

Have a great trip. We won't forget you.

Spoilers for OT.

Spoiler:

I just got back from the dentist. Due to eroding gums I've had bonding done on most of my teeth. Expensive and not fun. This time was in the lower front. I can eat on either side, just not in the middle.

And Mr. SR just got back from the eye doc. He has cataracts in both eyes and will be having surgery soon. I'm telling you, getting old is not for sissies.

Oh, dude!!

Spoiler:

Both of those suck!! My mom had cataract surgery along with some procedure for her glaucoma. Her pupils ended up being different sizes permanently. Whenever she'd see a new medical person they'd always freak out about it so I'd have to explain the surgeries to them. Honestly, the idea of someone cutting into my open eye freaks me the hell out. No regular Ativan or Valium would be able to calm me down enough to get through that. And I'm no sissy - 2 back surgeries, over 20 kidney stones to my name.

I'm going for a new crown tomorrow. I don't think that's supposed to be bad. Just expensive. Bonding - sounds painful!

I was never an SG1 fan and once regular contact with earth was established and the crossover episodes increased it got progressively worse. I hated it that in The Return II it was an SG1 character who got to save the day. And that so much of season 2 finale and season 3 premiering episodes took place at the SGC. I've never watched Grace Under Pressure, I've skimmed through and watched the scenes with Sheppard and Weir and that's it, that's how much SG1 presence on SGA bugs me. So, replacing Weir with Carter was like a slap in the face.

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. There were some crossovers that didn't bother me, like Jack in The Real World. But then Jack in Return 2 was a bit too much. And I'm not a big fan of Grace Under Pressure, but love Tao of Rodney. Someone else already said this (maybe Pearl? Damn, should have quoted that post too. Sorry!), that Tao was about one character but really showed the entire Atlantis family.

I would not say I was a fan of "team episodes" but rather Atlantis family episodes. Eps where the team went to some medieval village and shot things were boring to me. I much preferred episodes that involve all of Atlantis, not just the core team. How some people want eps with only the team is another throwback to SG-1 in my mind. To me, Atlantis was not an SG-1 clone originally. It was more about the entire expedition and the lost city of Atlantis. The later seasons tried to go back to the SG-1 formula because TPTW loved SG-1 much more than they ever cared for Atlantis.

ETA - and the ultimate insult to me was how much of the Atlantis finale, Enemy at the Gate, was in the SGC with SG-1 characters. That just made it very clear to me what Mallozzi, Mullie, and the others really thought about Atlantis.

[Southern Red]

Oh, dude!!

Spoiler:

Both of those suck!! My mom had cataract surgery along with some procedure for her glaucoma. Her pupils ended up being different sizes permanently. Whenever she'd see a new medical person they'd always freak out about it so I'd have to explain the surgeries to them. Honestly, the idea of someone cutting into my open eye freaks me the hell out. No regular Ativan or Valium would be able to calm me down enough to get through that. And I'm no sissy - 2 back surgeries, over 20 kidney stones to my name.

I'm going for a new crown tomorrow. I don't think that's supposed to be bad. Just expensive. Bonding - sounds painful!

OT reply:

Spoiler:

Nah, bonding is easy. It's just a bit of light drilling and then they fill the tooth in with bonding material. I had 3 done today. And they come out looking like brand new teeth. But the dentist said my gums "worry" him. I have 11 crowns. Some of them have been redone and one is an ultra-fancy titanium crown because I clenched my teeth so hard I cracked the other one. *snort*

The cataract surgery also sounds much improved from even a few years ago. It's nothing more than Lasik now, and with something called a "multi-lens" your eyesight is much improved. Mr. SR is excited. Oh, but the insurance doesn't cover the multi, so it's 2 grand per eye. Hello. But he's been blind without glasses since age 13. I say he deserves it, and that's what credit cards are for.

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. There were some crossovers that didn't bother me, like Jack in The Real World. But then Jack in Return 2 was a bit too much. And I'm not a big fan of Grace Under Pressure, but love Tao of Rodney. Someone else already said this (maybe Pearl? Damn, should have quoted that post too. Sorry!), that Tao was about one character but really showed the entire Atlantis family.

I would not say I was a fan of "team episodes" but rather Atlantis family episodes. Eps where the team went to some medieval village and shot things were boring to me. I much preferred episodes that involve all of Atlantis, not just the core team. How some people want eps with only the team is another throwback to SG-1 in my mind. To me, Atlantis was not an SG-1 clone originally. It was more about the entire expedition and the lost city of Atlantis. The later seasons tried to go back to the SG-1 formula because TPTW loved SG-1 much more than they ever cared for Atlantis.

ETA - and the ultimate insult to me was how much of the Atlantis finale, Enemy at the Gate, was in the SGC with SG-1 characters. That just made it very clear to me what Mallozzi, Mullie, and the others really thought about Atlantis.

ITA as usual. While I liked the team eps, I much preferred it when they were all on Atlantis or the team included Carson or Radek or especially Elizabeth. Otherwise, it was just a clone of SG-1. TOR is a nearly perfect ep in how everyone got a good part in it. Then came M&M with their disdain for their main character, and it never reached those heights again. Even Vegas couldn't make up for 2 years of neglect.

[Scary Kitty]

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. There were some crossovers that didn't bother me, like Jack in The Real World. But then Jack in Return 2 was a bit too much. And I'm not a big fan of Grace Under Pressure, but love Tao of Rodney. Someone else already said this (maybe Pearl? Damn, should have quoted that post too. Sorry!), that Tao was about one character but really showed the entire Atlantis family.

Absolutely. Even Grace Under Pressure does show a lot of the Atlantis family working together, it's just that the Rodney scenes are a lot more... grating, I guess. I'd count Epiphany as another one of those "Team Atlantis" episodes that kinda works (in the team scenes), but kinda doesn't (in the isolated character in trouble arena).

I would not say I was a fan of "team episodes" but rather Atlantis family episodes. Eps where the team went to some medieval village and shot things were boring to me. I much preferred episodes that involve all of Atlantis, not just the core team. How some people want eps with only the team is another throwback to SG-1 in my mind. To me, Atlantis was not an SG-1 clone originally. It was more about the entire expedition and the lost city of Atlantis. The later seasons tried to go back to the SG-1 formula because TPTW loved SG-1 much more than they ever cared for Atlantis.

ETA - and the ultimate insult to me was how much of the Atlantis finale, Enemy at the Gate, was in the SGC with SG-1 characters. That just made it very clear to me what Mallozzi, Mullie, and the others really thought about Atlantis.

This. This so damn hard.

[gateraid]

The same can be said about McKay and Keller. We give them a pretty hard time too. And Sam has taken a beating lately. Why can't we just be honest and say how we feel? It's just an opinion. Maybe we are actually holding back a lot of times so as not to give offense. We're not going to all agree. If the mods think we go too far, they will let us know.

Sing it sistah. And I think any of us who were around for the Weir hatred that was once rampant on this forum tend to hold back for fear of being in any way like those people. We have chosen to take the high road and be gracious as long as it is humanly possible. Though sometimes it's difficult to keep from blasting off. I admire the restraint of this thread and how we are welcoming to everyone unless they bash Sparky or try to tell us we're wrong.

I try to restrain myself because of misinterpretations. Even when one thinks they have spelled out their position as much as possible, there will always be wiggle room. Such as, it's hard to say things like "I like the *idea* of Carter on Atlantis but didn't like the character that showed up, nor how it panned out" on a pro-Weir thread. Or, saying that you like Teyla and wanted to see more of her, just not in a pairing with Sheppard.

But okay, let us delve into some unpopular opinions once again.

Teyla was poorly treated by TPTW. I thought she got a good run in s1 (there were times they could have used her more, sure, but she had some of her better scenes within that season) but they dropped the ball re how many story opportunities there were with her. Heck, look at Vengeance - how easy would it have been for the team to meet her on the planet (even within the teaser) because she'd been there with the Athosians (all it would have taken would have been two non-speaking extras for effect) and found something amiss. What about Trinity - her and Ronon go off on their own, have a cool story (where she kicks his ass) and we see character insight for both of them. Could they not have done something similar in The Return? I also think they didn't show enough of her 'adjustment' into Earth culture. If you look at s2 onwards, she may as well have been an earthling as she was practically fully assimilated. But the biggest blow to her is this: they tried to make Shep and Weir butt heads but dropped that becuase they couldn't make it work - why not re-evaluate how Teyla is/was fitting in at the same time? And what about when they brought Ronon in - there was clearly going to be some overlap in their roles, so why not do some 'tweaking'?

Sam could have worked really well on SGA. If they had a clear idea of what they wanted to achieve with the character, that might not have solved all their problems but it probably would have helped considerably. There are only two bits of her tenure that stand out for me - the transporter scenes with Zelenka in Quarantine, and S & R. And do you know why the S & R planet scenes worked so well? It's because you could have subbed in Sheppard in her place. I've always liked the Trinity scene with Shep/Weir/Caldwell where they're needling her to test the photonic cannon (). This could have worked just as well with Carter pushing McKay into a more aggressive form of terminating the replicators. She even had her own backstory to support this.

There was scope to introduce elements of SG-1 into the show, but they went the wrong way about it. Having the Deadalus around would have worked a lot better if the trip back to Earth took months instead of weeks. Then they could have done a couple of Deadalus eps in a row and then been without assistance for a few. Having crossover characters would have worked better in this manner - they could even go on a mission or two, then piss off home. I thought RDA worked well in TR, but the water scenes dragged on a bit. Teal'C in Midway was a bit of a waste of time - one character that grunts a lot talking to one that nods a lot.

Woolsey did seem to grow a pair during this season but he still wasn't the most qualified to lead the expedition.

To be fair, Carter was the most qualified, as she was the only one with history of being in command. It's possible Weir might have had an embassy posting at some point but we don't know that. Elizabeth's only qualification was that President Hayes 'thought' she was the right person to head the revitalisation of the SGC.

Agreed. Of the replacement leaders, Woolsey was by far the better of the two, in my opinion. In addition to being more like Elizabeth on a professional level (neither scientist nor military), he also seems to fit in more with the "Island of Misfit Toys" vibe that I get from the rest of the ensemble.

character-wise, Woolsey turned out to be a surprisingly good fit. Props to RP I'm amazed - it seemed like they went out of their way to incorporate Woolsey compared to with Carter

[Southern Red]

Absolutely. Even Grace Under Pressure does show a lot of the Atlantis family working together, it's just that the Rodney scenes are a lot more... grating, I guess. I'd count Epiphany as another one of those "Team Atlantis" episodes that kinda works (in the team scenes), but kinda doesn't (in the isolated character in trouble arena).



This. This so damn hard.

GUP even showed that John could work with the scientists and that he knew their names. I thought it was neat that we got to see what he was capable of without Rodney. It just pointed up how good John was in dealing with Rodney and how he could goad him into coming up with the perfect solution. Plus, the chocolate and peanut butter scene is just perfection.

I try to restrain myself because of misinterpretations. Even when one thinks they have spelled out their position as much as possible, there will always be wiggle room. Such as, it's hard to say things like "I like the *idea* of Carter on Atlantis but didn't like the character that showed up, nor how it panned out" on a pro-Weir thread. Or, saying that you like Teyla and wanted to see more of her, just not in a pairing with Sheppard.

But okay, let us delve into some unpopular opinions once again.

Teyla was poorly treated by TPTW. I thought she got a good run in s1 (there were times they could have used her more, sure, but she had some of her better scenes within that season) but they dropped the ball re how many story opportunities there were with her. Heck, look at Vengeance - how easy would it have been for the team to meet her on the planet (even within the teaser) because she'd been there with the Athosians (all it would have taken would have been two non-speaking extras for effect) and found something amiss. What about Trinity - her and Ronon go off on their own, have a cool story (where she kicks his ass) and we see character insight for both of them. Could they not have done something similar in The Return? I also think they didn't show enough of her 'adjustment' into Earth culture. If you look at s2 onwards, she may as well have been an earthling as she was practically fully assimilated. But the biggest blow to her is this: they tried to make Shep and Weir butt heads but dropped that becuase they couldn't make it work - why not re-evaluate how Teyla is/was fitting in at the same time? And what about when they brought Ronon in - there was clearly going to be some overlap in their roles, so why not do some 'tweaking'?

Sam could have worked really well on SGA. If they had a clear idea of what they wanted to achieve with the character, that might not have solved all their problems but it probably would have helped considerably. There are only two bits of her tenure that stand out for me - the transporter scenes with Zelenka in Quarantine, and S & R. And do you know why the S & R planet scenes worked so well? It's because you could have subbed in Sheppard in her place. I've always liked the Trinity scene with Shep/Weir/Caldwell where they're needling her to test the photonic cannon (). This could have worked just as well with Carter pushing McKay into a more aggressive form of terminating the replicators. She even had her own backstory to support this.

There was scope to introduce elements of SG-1 into the show, but they went the wrong way about it. Having the Deadalus around would have worked a lot better if the trip back to Earth took months instead of weeks. Then they could have done a couple of Deadalus eps in a row and then been without assistance for a few. Having crossover characters would have worked better in this manner - they could even go on a mission or two, then piss off home. I thought RDA worked well in TR, but the water scenes dragged on a bit. Teal'C in Midway was a bit of a waste of time - one character that grunts a lot talking to one that nods a lot.



To be fair, Carter was the most qualified, as she was the only one with history of being in command. It's possible Weir might have had an embassy posting at some point but we don't know that. Elizabeth's only qualification was that President Hayes 'thought' she was the right person to head the revitalisation of the SGC.



character-wise, Woolsey turned out to be a surprisingly good fit. Props to RP I'm amazed - it seemed like they went out of their way to incorporate Woolsey compared to with Carter

Good points all. I just have a few general comments. I think a lot depends on who is your favorite character. I like John. I make no bones about it, and it's not just some fangirly OMGHE'SHAWT! thing. Though I admit to a bit of that also. Even though it makes me squicky when I occasionally wander into some of the threads or areas on LJ that only seem to see him as a collection of body parts. If someone criticizes John or Joe, I get my back up. But that doesn't mean I don't like all the others too, some more than others and some could disappear forever and I wouldn't blink, but I try not to express that opinion in public.

But if there is a discussion of John's fear of intimacy or his social awkwardness or his rash behavior, I'm right there to try to explain it. However, I don't see that as bashing.

Let's face it, after S3 the total focus of these writers was McKay and/or Keller. They didn't think for a second about how they could give anyone else more time. It was all "Okay, enough about McKay. Now let's talk about how Keller feels about McKay." or something to that effect. Keller even took Teyla's place as the damsel in distress, and instead of focusing on Teyla's new motherhood and her people, they just ignored her. Because, I believe, they were saving her to spring Sheyla on us and befuddle the entire viewing audience.

On Sam, the biggest remaining question is why they didn't write for Sam but continued to write for Weir and have Sam deliver the lines. I liked her in S&R too except for the leather suit and how she let John steamroll her. She was good in directing the rescue mission. I can't see Woolsey doing that. However, you're right. Now that I've adjusted to him, I can't see Woolsey leaving and anyone else, including Weir, taking that job. Mostly because I don't want her to be John's boss again, but still, he did a fine job. I can also see Daniel Jackson fitting into the show, but would rather have Weir come back and take a similar role.