Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

I could go for that too. But you know they could never have written for 2 strong women at the same time. Look how they treated the relationship between Weir and Teyla.

They probably realized that it was too much for them. And they called themselves professional writers.

I think since Caldwell had such a history with them and had already gone through the power struggle thingy, they would have had him tell her he was just following orders. But I don't think he would have tried to ignore her or be so rude.

I agree, Caldwell would discard any responsibility and just say that he was following orders, i think Elizabeth would probably have accepted the situation better. Caldwell would have handled things differently, with a little bit more of diplomacy at least.

I vaguely recall reading some comment from Pileggi about wanting to delve into Caldwell's reaction and feelings about Weir's "demise" in Season 4, after they had built up their working relationship the previous couple of years. Or something like that.

So it seems everyone wanted to show their reaction to Elizabeth’s “demise”, as in fact it should have been, i mean someone disappears the way she did and no one seems to react accordingly, it is not natural. If you work with someone for a couple of years it is natural that you will “feel” something when that person is not there anymore, specially when the person disappeared the way she did.

I wonder... Isn't there a saying that states how you're more likely to argue with and hurt those you are closest to? John and Elizabeth were close enough that they were never afraid to voice their individual opinions to each other, even if they knew that one or both of them would be hurt.

That’s actually quite true, i had never thought about it that way.

John would no longer be the military commander, and he'd have to submit to Carter, so you would have Elizabeth and Carter working side-by-side instead of our Sparky pairing.

I wouldn’t want that! We would never see Carter as the military commander with Elizabeth in charge, it wouldn’t make any sense for them to replace John. But they could have had Carter there as the one in charge of Atlantis, because of Elizabeth’s situation, but Elizabeth could still have been there as a diplomat, or as an adviser to Carter or something like that.

- Now, if we were to have conflict between Elizabeth and Carter, I think that any fray would have resulted in one, if not both, of the characters looking bad.

I am guessing there would be a certain conflict between the two of them. It would have been interesting to see that. If there would be any conflict between them, it would not necessarily mean they would look bad, it would depend on what kind of conflict there would be between them, because of what issues and so on.

Not to mention, you would potentially be spliting the audience up into two sides: one that is rooting for Elizabeth and doesn't want Carter to intrude in on a show that she wasn't originally part of, and one that loves Carter and can't stand Elizabeth and wants her gone.

True. That would definitely happen. I mean in a way it actually did. But it would depend also on how the writers would handle the situation.

However, even though displaying Carter as the Colonel everyone loved and revered might have attracted some fans of SG-1, to Atlantis loyalists and fans of Elizabeth, this was an insult to the independence of the show from SG-1 and to the strong leader who had led Atlantis for three years.

I totally agree with you on this. I really hate when people compare SG1 and Atlantis, to me they are different shows. One doesn’t need the other in order to exist.

I love that line of Jason Momoa's in "Reunion" - "Weir never would have doubted me." Any scene that demonstrates his respect for Elizabeth exemplifies how much Elizabeth reached out to the expedition and made a lasting impact on many people. I honestly wonder how much Carter did in the year she was there.

Carter probably didn’t reach out that much to the expedition (or the audience for that matter), because most of times she wasn’t even there. And i also think the writers in a way realized that, i mean if not why did they feel the need of having Teal’C say (“with words”) how everyone in Atlantis seemed to have embraced her as their new leader or something like that. It reminded me of season one when we always had Bates telling us about the “personal” feelings John had for Teyla, am i making any sense here? When something isn’t there, it needs to be “said”.

Ronon was probably the only one who reacted accordingly to Elizabeth’s situation, whether in Reunion or even in Adrift when he goes near Elizabeth’s bed and thanks her for everything she has done for him.

[Southern Red]

Great discussion today. I love it when we get intellectual.



I wonder... Isn't there a saying that states how you're more likely to argue with and hurt those you are closest to?

Indeed there is. There's even a song. Here's an updated version:

Spoiler:

John and Elizabeth were close enough that they were never afraid to voice their individual opinions to each other, even if they knew that one or both of them would be hurt. When I first watched "Rising, Part 2," I remember being very surprised by their argument on the balcony - for two people who hadn't even known each other that long, it was almost alarming how they started a very heated shouting match so easily. However, considering the chemistry they had between them in all the episodes that followed, perhaps it wasn't so surprising that they could get into an argument so early in the series.

Oh boy, so much good stuff to sink my teeth into. *cracks knuckles and goes for more coffee*

The very first time I became aware of a Sparky connection was when he went through the wormhole on their first trip to Athos, and he turned and waved goodbye to her. Bingo! I was hooked. I remember saying aloud "Why is he waving at her?" He hadn't even met Teyla yet, but as soon as I began to see the Sheyla anvils, I just assumed they were going for a triangle. Mr. SR was the one who, judging by his past experience with shows like this, said Sheyla was a red herring and Sparky was gonna happen at some point. So, the argument just fit into that UST scenario. They did seem to get close awfully fast, especially when he started following her around like a little puppy and seemed to have chosen to follow her orders over Sumner's when she essentially sent him on that mission to watch Sumner. "Major, I'd like you to go along." He was looking at her like he was waiting for her to say that..."Pick me, pick me, you know I'm your boy". The chemistry was there right from the start. Just look at that scene when he raises the Champagne bottle and makes eye contact with him. Rodney is right there but gets ignored.

Compare that argument to John's conversation with Carter about rescuing Elizabeth in "Reunion." Carter wasn't willing to let John risk his life on such a rash mission, and the submissive way John replied, "fair enough," demonstrated how he didn't want to argue with her. Part of it might be due to how Carter was John's superior, and he didn't want to look insubordinate, but the quiet, acquiescent manner in which he responded also told me that he wasn't completely comfortable with Carter yet, and he didn't want to argue with someone who he didn't know very well. I'm unsure if John had known Carter personally before she arrived in Atlantis, but I think that this scene definitely epitomizes the lack of initial chemistry between John and Carter, and I don't think it got any better a year later. In "Search and Rescue," when John disobeyed Carter in order to go find Teyla, I was almost disappointed with the quiet tension we got in that scene. John was determined, but he still appeared uncomfortable, and I thought that Carter wasn't forcible enough with John when she told him he couldn't go. I sometimes wonder what might have happened if Elizabeth had been there - I think the scene would definitely have carried a lot more emotion and passion and would have ultimately played out very differently.

Carter's rank in relation to John makes all the difference, and I'm not sure the writers realized that before it was too late. How would it look if John had disobeyed her? Bad for our hero, and we know from some statements TPTB made, they didn't want John to keep going down that road. In fact, early on JF said he had some disagreements with them over letting Shep's dark side show. They even used Mal Reynolds from Firefly as an example of how not to be.

I have to reluctantly disagree and say I think John and Sam had good chemistry. I'm reluctant because shipping them makes me queasy, and I don't want to imply that. There were times when she seemed a bit intimidated by him, which just made her seem weak. Like the scene in S&R. A good commander would have ordered him restrained if he tried to lead a mission in his condition. It put everybody in danger. I think Elizabeth would have been more emotional, sure, but knowing these writers, they still would have had John be all macho and disobey her. Funny that the same people who would have argued that such an act made her a bad leader thought Sam was the best leader Atlantis ever had. And speaking of which, when John told her he respected her more than any commander he ever had, I almost lost my teeth. First of all, Elizabeth was not his "Commanding officer" but of course her haters said he was including her. Second of all, good grief. Just good grief. More "Sam is perfect" innuendo.

There are too many good quotes on this subject. Personally, I think it would have been very difficult to strike a balance between these two female characters. If we have them play nice with each other, well, who's in charge? John would no longer be the military commander, and he'd have to submit to Carter, so you would have Elizabeth and Carter working side-by-side instead of our Sparky pairing. But honestly, I just can't see that working out nicely. If the audience didn't start complaining about how two women were running the city, I think that they might start complaining about the lack of chemistry between them. Granted, they've never interacted with each other in Atlantis before, but I honestly just can't see it happening.

I don't remember the episodes much but Sam and Elizabeth worked together when Elizabeth was at the SGC. I'm thinking there was some conflict but forget over what. Someone can fill you in. There were rumors around here long before S4 that Sam was coming to SGA, and the fans went boom. A good number hated the idea, while the SG-1 fans thought it was brilliant. It was said she would be coming in "her own ship" but that didn't work out until they got rid of Weir.

Now, if we were to have conflict between Elizabeth and Carter, I think that any fray would have resulted in one, if not both, of the characters looking bad. Not to mention, you would potentially be spliting the audience up into two sides: one that is rooting for Elizabeth and doesn't want Carter to intrude in on a show that she wasn't originally part of, and one that loves Carter and can't stand Elizabeth and wants her gone.

Bingo, and it would have looked like a chick fight because they would have written it that way. Also, there was no way Weir would have come out of that looking good. Those factions you mentioned existed. I wish you could see the old anti-Weir threads, but they're all gone. It was a blood bath.

Like pretty much everyone here, I hated that scene in "Reunion" when Carter arrives in Atlantis. Of course TPTW had make a first impression with Carter when they introduced her into Atlantis - otherwise, whatever will SG-1 viewers think? However, even though displaying Carter as the Colonel everyone loved and revered might have attracted some fans of SG-1, to Atlantis loyalists and fans of Elizabeth, this was an insult to the independence of the show from SG-1 and to the strong leader who had led Atlantis for three years. At the time, TPTW believed that Carter would bring a new charisma to the team, but hindsight is always 20/20.

They miscalculated a lot. They actually thought bringing Sam onboard would bring along all the SG-1 fans. Instead what we got was more conflict.

I think working Elizabeth into that S & R scene would have been very difficult (unless it was on the viewscreen, which wouldn't have been very effective and I would have viewed it as a bit of a cop-out) to achieve without it seeming like a contrivance. Although it's possible the Keller hand grip scene could have been switched to Weir and Shep. Come to think of it, its an odd transition from that scene to the Carter/Shep one - you'd think one of them would have brought up "you/I stopped you from doing a rescue a year ago....." or "you wouldn't be standing there if i'd reacted differently during the season premiere (which could mean either Carter wouldn't be there because Elizabeth was still there, or because Carter stopping Weir's rescue meant she likely saved Sheppard's life)"

I think Elizabeth would have been left back on Atlantis as usual, so that scene would still have involved Keller, and you're right. John would have had to talk to Weir on the radio, lessening the impact of the scene where he says he's going on the mission.

this is an interesting take on it, and not one I'd considered (although it is the logical result of having Carter/Weir/Sheppard). Having Carter there as either military head or chief scientist (which would also make her the ranking officer, so that probably wouldn't have worked either) would certainly have ended that way. The cheat way would be to have her as the commander of the Apollo, and have the Apollo stationed permanently in Pegasus. This would have made her available to help out when the story called for it, but not be part of the Atlantis chain of command per se.

That would have made sense and was what most of us thought was going to happen. My biggest problem with Sam was that she was just Weirlite. Scientist Sam appeared to be mostly gone.

[Southern Red]

Carter probably didn’t reach out that much to the expedition (or the audience for that matter), because most of times she wasn’t even there. And i also think the writers in a way realized that, i mean if not why did they feel the need of having Teal’C say (“with words”) how everyone in Atlantis seemed to have embraced her as their new leader or something like that. It reminded me of season one when we always had Bates telling us about the “personal” feelings John had for Teyla, am i making any sense here? When something isn’t there, it needs to be “said”.

Ronon was probably the only one who reacted accordingly to Elizabeth’s situation, whether in Reunion or even in Adrift when he goes near Elizabeth’s bed and thanks her for everything she has done for him.

Yes, yes. You have pointed out the #1 rule of writing: show, don't tell. These writers were experts at doing just the opposite. Thus, why we make fun of all the various "anvils." That's when they have to point out to us what they are trying to convey but failing at. You take a couple who hardly look at each other, never are shown having private time and try to tell us they are in wuv twoo wuv, and then you wonder why we don't all see it. Badwritingbadwritingbadwriting.

[Raelis]

I don't remember the episodes much but Sam and Elizabeth worked together when Elizabeth was at the SGC. I'm thinking there was some conflict but forget over what.

As far as I remember, Sam wanted to use a modified ship to save O'Neill from yet another mortal peril; Elizabeth denied her request because they could need that ship to fend off a Goa'uld attack. Sam then threatened to stop working on modifications for the ship, and that got her the allowance.
Pretty much the same thing as Sam and John's conflict in Search and Rescue. When Sam needed to help O'Neill, she did not hesitate to fight dirty.

[Southern Red]

As far as I remember, Sam wanted to use a modified ship to save O'Neill from yet another mortal peril; Elizabeth denied her request because they could need that ship to fend off a Goa'uld attack. Sam then threatened to stop working on modifications for the ship, and that got her the allowance.
Pretty much the same thing as Sam and John's conflict in Search and Rescue. When Sam needed to help O'Neill, she did not hesitate to fight dirty.

That's right. I remember now. So she should have understood John's need to rescue Teyla. Some would say because it mirrored the ships, but that makes me want to kick something so I'll ignore it. I wonder if the writers thought this through and wanted to show that Sam understood John's position or was it just an accident? What am I saying...of course it was accidental and badly done.

[Raelis]

That's right. I remember now. So she should have understood John's need to rescue Teyla. Some would say because it mirrored the ships, but that makes me want to kick something so I'll ignore it. I wonder if the writers thought this through and wanted to show that Sam understood John's position or was it just an accident? What am I saying...of course it was accidental and badly done.

Honestly, I interpreted the Search and Rescue scene as Sam understanding what John is going through because she has gone through the same thing multiple times. She knew what an SG team bond is like, and she knew she would have done exactly the same thing in his shoes, injury or no. I don't think shipping had anything to do with it, even if the writers did try to push the John/Teyla in that episode.

[Brie]

Hello everyone!

I was planning to be here for the post-a-thon this past Sunday but I had a family thing that kept me away from the computer so I missed the time changed but I most likely would have missed it anyway. Anyway I did read through the pages and it made me realize how long it’s been since I saw ‘First Strike’ and I will have to see it again if I’m going to be able to keep up for ‘Adrift’ on Sunday. I also haven’t been able to show up for the past two days because I’ve had late night classes and I’ve been too tired to log onto my computer.

Does anyone know what happened to Brie? I mean she said she was going to be here yesterday for the post-a-thon, but she never showed up.

I’m here now it’s just been a crazy few days for me and thing happened that I couldn’t get out of long enough to even stop by.

Some loveliness from Tumblr:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/057645637...wllno1_500.gif
http://24.media.tumblr.com/2d9b4eccf...wllno2_500.png
http://25.media.tumblr.com/ddeb7bd3f...wllno3_500.gif




“The whole world is divided for me into two parts: one is she, and there is all happiness, hope, light; the other is where she is not, and there is dejection and darkness…”
- Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

I saw that quote a while back and thought of doing a Sparky fanart to it but never got around to doing it but I do love it and it feels like the perfect quote to fit into what John most have felt during season 4 and 5.

I've committed fic. Give it a read, if you are so inclined.

I love the fic, it was really sweet and just what I needed today.

And you can also start watching season 1 once again and pretend that the series ended on the episode “The Ark” (and that “Submersion was showed before it)!!!!!

Maybe the fact that the writers chose to ignore this potential is the reason why I adore the "Atlantis deliberately cuts all ties to Earth" fics.

I think most if not all of us have something (or a lot of things we wouldn’t mind changing but for me the first one would have been to never have had them make contact with earth in the first place, and not just because I feel that everything went wrong after they made contact with earth again but it does have more to do with one of the things I liked the most about season 1 and that is that they at that point everything was really new but also that whenever they headed off-world it was also more about finding allies to help with food and their survival but also allies willing to stand by their sides if it would ever come to that but once they made contact with earth it was all about finding weapons that earth could use and I dunno, it’s hard to explain but hopefully that makes at least a little sense. They also would have been more careful with people dying, especially in pointless ways. The only thing I would have missed with that storyline would have been Lorne.

I also would have skipped the whole replicator story-line, it’s been done to death on SG-1 and I never understood why they felt the need to bring it to Atlantis as well, I would have much rather have seen more of those evil guys from ‘The Daedalus Variation’ they were really cool and different.

[Southern Red]

Honestly, I interpreted the Search and Rescue scene as Sam understanding what John is going through because she has gone through the same thing multiple times. She knew what an SG team bond is like, and she knew she would have done exactly the same thing in his shoes, injury or no. I don't think shipping had anything to do with it, even if the writers did try to push the John/Teyla in that episode.

Oh, I agree with you from the writers' standpoint. I think that's what they were trying to show, but the shippy connection came from the fans. Gero and his weird candlelight dinner scene confused everybody and set the fans up to expect something they never delivered on. That was very cruel. I can't imagine what the casual fans thought.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday! Something's come up, so I've got a busy morning and can't join in on the awesome discussion you're all having (nooooo! ) but it's fantastic, so keep it up! I want to see lots of good stuff to read when I get back!

Oh, I agree with you from the writers' standpoint. I think that's what they were trying to show, but the shippy connection came from the fans. Gero and his weird candlelight dinner scene confused everybody and set the fans up to expect something they never delivered on. That was very cruel. I can't imagine what the casual fans thought.

I think a general 'WTF?' probably covers it.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

As far as I remember, Sam wanted to use a modified ship to save O'Neill from yet another mortal peril; Elizabeth denied her request because they could need that ship to fend off a Goa'uld attack. Sam then threatened to stop working on modifications for the ship, and that got her the allowance.
Pretty much the same thing as Sam and John's conflict in Search and Rescue. When Sam needed to help O'Neill, she did not hesitate to fight dirty.

And if we would want to be mean, that can also be a reason for her to have denied John’s request to go and look for Elizabeth.

So she should have understood John's need to rescue Teyla.

Exactly. And in a way i think she did, because she didn’t say anything else after the initial denial of permission for him to go.

I’m here now it’s just been a crazy few days for me and thing happened that I couldn’t get out of long enough to even stop by.

Welcome back.

I think most if not all of us have something (or a lot of things we wouldn’t mind changing but for me the first one would have been to never have had them make contact with earth in the first place, and not just because I feel that everything went wrong after they made contact with earth again but it does have more to do with one of the things I liked the most about season 1

I agree, if they had remained isolated from Earth, the stories would probably have been more interesting, i would have loved to see how they would have handled the Siege if the Daedalus would not have arrived at the time it did, among other things.

but it does have more to do with one of the things I liked the most about season 1 and that is that they at that point everything was really new but also that whenever they headed off-world it was also more about finding allies to help with food and their survival but also allies willing to stand by their sides

Exactly. It would have been more interesting to see them struggle for food (among other things, like for example clothes, how would they handle that issue, would they end up wearing similar clothes to the Athosians) and dealing with the Wraith without the back up from Earth. And of course the relationships would have become more interesting too!!

but once they made contact with earth it was all about finding weapons that earth could use and I dunno, it’s hard to explain but hopefully that makes at least a little sense.

I think i can understand what you are trying to say, their purpose changed once they got in touch with Earth, and the purpose of just looking for weapons was less interesting than to see them strugle to survive.

I would have much rather have seen more of those evil guys from ‘The Daedalus Variation’ they were really cool and different.

Or the Pegasus Asgard.

[america126]

hi everyone, i am sorry that i couldn't be on for the post a thon.

also i have a touch of the flu, which doesn't help at all and am going to be finishing a book trilogy today, the last one came out yesterday, it's chasing the prophecy, the final book in the beyonders trilogy by Brandon mull, who also wrote fablehaven.

[Southern Red]

Exactly. It would have been more interesting to see them struggle for food (among other things, like for example clothes, how would they handle that issue, would they end up wearing similar clothes to the Athosians) and dealing with the Wraith without the back up from Earth. And of course the relationships would have become more interesting too!!

Oh man, I would have paid money to see John stick fighting in one of those split skirts. Shirtless, of course. Or maybe some kind of animal skin. *droolz*

[poundpuppy29]

[Raelis]

And if we would want to be mean, that can also be a reason for her to have denied John’s request to go and look for Elizabeth.

No. I can't believe that even if I want to be mean. Sam would never refuse to save someone out of spite or some personal dislike for them. That would be as grossly out of character as John seducing Teyla despite her being with Kanaan, or Ronon forgiving the Wraith.

[Falcon Horus]

Gero and his weird candlelight dinner scene confused everybody and set the fans up to expect something they never delivered on. That was very cruel. I can't imagine what the casual fans thought.

Especially with Ford there as well... John's hallucinating about Teyla and Ford... what a triangle.