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Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

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    Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    Sanctuary is/was her project, alongside Martin Wood I believe, so in that regard I imagine they possibly had to give in somewhere. I'm not familiar with how contracts for actors work, you'll have to ask someone who knows more about that sort of thing.

    I can only compare it perhaps to working for a boss, and for yourself at the same time. You signed a contract with your employer stating you'll be there on the given days agreed upon in the contract, while the rest of the week you spent doing your own thing. But probably a lot more complicated than that.

    I do remember vaguely reading somewhere that on CSI Miami, the one dude that dies at the end of season 1 (and is then replaced by Jonathan Togo playing Ryan Wolf), wasn't allowed to work on anything else cause he signed a 3-year contract or something... but don't quote me on that.
    Got it.

    Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
    Carter holds the higher rank, therefore she is automatically military commander. It's not that hard to understand.
    So he would be her second in command and no longer the military commander. Got it. To me it is hard to understand, LOL!

    No. Go back and read SR's post again, she clearly explained how such a situation should work.
    But she said that if Carter had been loaned to the IOA she would no longer be there in a military position, didn’t she?

    Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
    This is why I said earlier that they messed it up because her being in Elizabeth's job made it a military position unless they loaned her out to the IOA.
    I am sorry this might be clear to you, but maybe for me it is not yet so clear.
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      Okay, I managed to confuse everybody else and myself, so I consulted my resident expert. Without getting too technical, Carter would have been the overall commander of the base because of her superior rank. She would have assigned John to be in charge of the daily operations of the base. The title "military commander" would no longer apply because Sam was also military, whereas Elizabeth was not. When Elizabeth was there the military and civilian sections were handled separately, but since Sam was military, the whole operation became a military operation with Sam as the boss of all of them. Sam would have had final word over the military unlike when Elizabeth was there and John had the final say over anything military.

      And when someone is "on loan" they are still military and if they work with someone who is also military the chain of command is upheld no matter what jobs they do or even if they don't wear uniforms at work. The fact that you are in the military always comes first.

      I hope this helps clear things up.
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      Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

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        Originally posted by Pearl of Atlantis76 View Post
        But she said that if Carter had been loaned to the IOA she would no longer be there in a military position, didn’t she?

        I am sorry this might be clear to you, but maybe for me it is not yet so clear.
        *sighs* No, she did not. You're still ignoring the second part of her post where she says: "But even so, John would still have had to follow her orders and treat her like his military superior. He would no longer have been the "military commander" but the second in command because she outranked him. I know this gets confusing but it's just how the US military works. John would have still done his old job but technically, Sam would have been at the top of the military chain of command. "

        Looks crystal clear to me. Carter might have been loaned to the IOA, but she is STILL a military officer and she and any other military officers in Atlantis will STILL follow the military chain of command. End of story.

        Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
        Okay, I managed to confuse everybody else and myself, so I consulted my resident expert. Without getting too technical, Carter would have been the overall commander of the base because of her superior rank. She would have assigned John to be in charge of the daily operations of the base. The title "military commander" would no longer apply because Sam was also military, whereas Elizabeth was not. When Elizabeth was there the military and civilian sections were handled separately, but since Sam was military, the whole operation became a military operation with Sam as the boss of all of them. Sam would have had final word over the military unlike when Elizabeth was there and John had the final say over anything military.

        And when someone is "on loan" they are still military and if they work with someone who is also military the chain of command is upheld no matter what jobs they do or even if they don't wear uniforms at work. The fact that you are in the military always comes first.

        I hope this helps clear things up.
        Exactly. Like I said, it was crystal clear to me from the beginning.
        (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
        Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

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          Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
          Okay, I managed to confuse everybody else and myself, so I consulted my resident expert. Without getting too technical, Carter would have been the overall commander of the base because of her superior rank. She would have assigned John to be in charge of the daily operations of the base. The title "military commander" would no longer apply because Sam was also military, whereas Elizabeth was not. When Elizabeth was there the military and civilian sections were handled separately, but since Sam was military, the whole operation became a military operation with Sam as the boss of all of them. Sam would have had final word over the military unlike when Elizabeth was there and John had the final say over anything military.

          And when someone is "on loan" they are still military and if they work with someone who is also military the chain of command is upheld no matter what jobs they do or even if they don't wear uniforms at work. The fact that you are in the military always comes first.

          I hope this helps clear things up.
          For those that also watched SG1, think back to when we met Carter and Jack wanted to be smart and tease or whatever and call her Dr. Carter and she corrected him (rather cheekily and I loved every second of it because I'm a goober like that) saying that it was protocol to refer to her by her rank, not her title (or something like that)...

          I've loved all the discussion and have nothing new or interesting to add...except to say that I kind of feel like having Sheppard be the defiant, "bad boy" toward Sam would have made him seem more like O'Neill was toward Hammond. Been there, done that and he deserves to be his own person...not that I don't think he should have forced the issue of going out to look for Elizabeth. i would have loved for him to have done that, just in his own way.

          (I'm not sure I'm making much sense...it's been a long, emotionally exhausting week for me....about to dig into my sparky vids on youtube for a pick me up)
          My fanfics:http://evil_bad_evil.livejournal.com/3389.htmlMember of the Sisterhood of the Pantster Fan Fic Writers
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            Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
            Ah yes, I remember those days...the conflict before the real conflict. Having her in the Ellis role would have worked, I think, differently, but it would have worked. They said they tried to write a conflict with Shep, but Carter was just too nice and it didn't work, or something. It would also, IMHO, have brought back some of the idea of him being hard to handle. I would like to have seen that.
            Even if they'd kept the rest of s4 exactly the same, it would have provided a bit of continuity. Plus they could replace those boring filler scenes at Midway with them actually finding Atlantis

            I liked the story old Rodney told John about what happened to Carter. I can see her being heroic like that.
            I liked that too, a good death, if there is such a thing. I recall reading a "what were Carter's last words?" thread where someone commented "finally my reproductive organs will be on the outside instead of the inside"



            I would also have liked to see the team interact more with others. John and Lorne had good chemistry. I would have liked just a moment of seeing them being friends. I know time was a factor, but I could give them a long list of scenes they could have left out.
            I wish you had, and I wish they had listened

            I would love to come see you. NZ is on our bucket list. I saw The Hobbit the other day and now I want to go even more. I know you must hate that all we Americans know of NZ is that movie, but it sure has helped tourism.
            I haven't seen it, but I hear it's good if you're into that sort of thing. I also haven't seen LOTR. It doesn't bother me that that's all most Americans know of NZ is those movies. Generally its either that, or the haka (which people either ask you to do, or is done to excess by others)

            Very good point. And when we quote what actors say at cons, it is to be taken with a huge grain of salt because they tend to change their statements. One consistent thing, though, is Joe's defense of Torri and his stories of how he went to TPTB and, in his words, "pitched a fit" after they let both her and Paul go.
            Agreed. And that's when they stopped talking to him



            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
            And then they really went isolationist with Woolsey getting his own lunch and taking it back to his office...
            Maybe that's why he wanted Ronon to do verbal mission reports - so it would seem like he was eating with a friend?



            Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
            @Gateraid - I haven't set anything in stone yet.
            Understood. Nothing to see here, move along folks

            Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
            Be careful with writings like these especially since we don't know what really happened behind the scenes, the things we as mere mortal fans have no privilege to know about.

            What we do know is the following:

            A) Amanda had an eleventh season contract for SG1, which TPTW decided to use on Atlantis, so technically speaking she had no choice but to follow her contract. I'm sure there were small letters in it about breaking the contract but like I said not privileged to know such matters.

            B) Amanda was working on her own show at the time she did season 4 of Atlantis, namely Sanctuary, and that hit it off pretty good and more importantly she was one of the PTW on it so had more control over where it went or how it was.

            And I absolutely love Helen Magnus who's one awesome lady... okay, was but still.

            So, there's probably a good chance AT didn't have a choice and went with the flow as best as she could. I think we have learned by now that actors generally have little say in how things are run higher up the chain unless the people in command allow them to have more of a say and value their input.
            ^ this.

            Everything I've read on the subject says (to me at least) that AT was obliged to do s4, and it was up to TPTW to determine in what capacity. Also, some of her limited screentime in s4 is also due to filming on the SG-1 movies, as well as Sanctuary. Not returning for s5 was a logical decision from a career standpoint - she'd been with SG for 11yrs at that point and was just another actor voice in the crowd, compared to the brand new Sanctuary, where she was part of the production team.


            I disagree. On the outside he was still that ruggedly handsome flyboy we got to know in Rising, but on the inside he would have grown as a character over the years. Sure, he had his moments, his wild moments, but he still would have grown ... dare I say more mature in his position and his being. And like SR mentioned (I think) Carter was his commanding officer, he had to follow her orders whether he liked to or not.
            Not to mention I don't recall them ever actually having an argument, aside from in S & R.


            Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
            Okay, I managed to confuse everybody else and myself, so I consulted my resident expert. Without getting too technical, Carter would have been the overall commander of the base because of her superior rank. She would have assigned John to be in charge of the daily operations of the base. The title "military commander" would no longer apply because Sam was also military, whereas Elizabeth was not. When Elizabeth was there the military and civilian sections were handled separately, but since Sam was military, the whole operation became a military operation with Sam as the boss of all of them. Sam would have had final word over the military unlike when Elizabeth was there and John had the final say over anything military.

            And when someone is "on loan" they are still military and if they work with someone who is also military the chain of command is upheld no matter what jobs they do or even if they don't wear uniforms at work. The fact that you are in the military always comes first.

            I hope this helps clear things up.
            I just wish when the militarised it, they actually pushed the barrow a bit further. Perhaps have Carter come in and be the one to declare war on the replicators (again) while Shep had a wait and see approach. Maybe divert Rodney's attention to replicator-based tasks. Bolstering the shields in case of attack. Something, anything
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              Originally posted by drewandian View Post
              For those that also watched SG1, think back to when we met Carter and Jack wanted to be smart and tease or whatever and call her Dr. Carter and she corrected him (rather cheekily and I loved every second of it because I'm a goober like that) saying that it was protocol to refer to her by her rank, not her title (or something like that)...

              I've loved all the discussion and have nothing new or interesting to add...except to say that I kind of feel like having Sheppard be the defiant, "bad boy" toward Sam would have made him seem more like O'Neill was toward Hammond. Been there, done that and he deserves to be his own person...not that I don't think he should have forced the issue of going out to look for Elizabeth. i would have loved for him to have done that, just in his own way.

              (I'm not sure I'm making much sense...it's been a long, emotionally exhausting week for me....about to dig into my sparky vids on youtube for a pick me up)
              Thanks for those points. I had forgotten that about Carter and the rank, and I like what you added about John being too much like Jack if he had argued with her.

              Originally posted by gateraid View Post
              I just wish when the militarised it, they actually pushed the barrow a bit further. Perhaps have Carter come in and be the one to declare war on the replicators (again) while Shep had a wait and see approach. Maybe divert Rodney's attention to replicator-based tasks. Bolstering the shields in case of attack. Something, anything
              I'm not sure they really did militarize the base. That was never clear because Sam was wearing the expedition uniform, not her USAF uniform. It's a subtle distinction and may be yet another mistake from TPTB. Does anyone have info on whether it was stated that they made it a military operation? My memory is getting foggy this far removed.

              Mr. SR and I watched the last Indiana Jones movie last night and I thought of Sam when they referred to Cate Blanchett's character as "Colonel Doctor." LOL
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              Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

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                Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and S-minus 5 hours and 18 minutes until the Echoes post-a-thon!

                Originally posted by drewandian View Post
                For those that also watched SG1, think back to when we met Carter and Jack wanted to be smart and tease or whatever and call her Dr. Carter and she corrected him (rather cheekily and I loved every second of it because I'm a goober like that) saying that it was protocol to refer to her by her rank, not her title (or something like that)...

                I've loved all the discussion and have nothing new or interesting to add...except to say that I kind of feel like having Sheppard be the defiant, "bad boy" toward Sam would have made him seem more like O'Neill was toward Hammond. Been there, done that and he deserves to be his own person...not that I don't think he should have forced the issue of going out to look for Elizabeth. i would have loved for him to have done that, just in his own way.

                (I'm not sure I'm making much sense...it's been a long, emotionally exhausting week for me....about to dig into my sparky vids on youtube for a pick me up)
                That's a good point about Sheppard being too much like O'Neill if he'd argued with Carter. On the other hand, there probably were ways to handle it without it seeming like a retread. Like you said, to let John do it "in his own way" with regards to forcing the issue on searching for Elizabeth, etc.

                Hey, if you need a Sparky pick-me-up, maybe you'd like to join us for the post-a-thon today? We're watching Echoes, and there's nothing like that lovely faint-and-carry scene to brighten one's day! We start at 4:30 Eastern time, if you can make it! *hugs*

                Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                I liked that too, a good death, if there is such a thing. I recall reading a "what were Carter's last words?" thread where someone commented "finally my reproductive organs will be on the outside instead of the inside"
                *snorts*

                Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                Maybe that's why he wanted Ronon to do verbal mission reports - so it would seem like he was eating with a friend?


                Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                I'm not sure they really did militarize the base. That was never clear because Sam was wearing the expedition uniform, not her USAF uniform. It's a subtle distinction and may be yet another mistake from TPTB. Does anyone have info on whether it was stated that they made it a military operation? My memory is getting foggy this far removed.
                I'm not sure either. Oh well, we'll be able to refresh our memories in a few more weeks when we get to Season 4 on the post-a-thon schedule.
                (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

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                  I'm going to do my best to be here... someone's gotta be here to squee about my psychologist, right.
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                    Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                    I'm not sure they really did militarize the base. That was never clear because Sam was wearing the expedition uniform, not her USAF uniform. It's a subtle distinction and may be yet another mistake from TPTB. Does anyone have info on whether it was stated that they made it a military operation? My memory is getting foggy this far removed.
                    I think there's a line in the episode where Sam takes over about the IOA worrying about the Asurans and wanting the person with the most knowledge of both the Repilcators and Ancient tech heading up the expedition.
                    I tell you Teal'c, hockey is the coolest game on Earth!

                    Did you not say it is played on ice, O'Neill?

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                      Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                      Okay, I managed to confuse everybody else and myself, so I consulted my resident expert. Without getting too technical, Carter would have been the overall commander of the base because of her superior rank. She would have assigned John to be in charge of the daily operations of the base. The title "military commander" would no longer apply because Sam was also military, whereas Elizabeth was not. When Elizabeth was there the military and civilian sections were handled separately, but since Sam was military, the whole operation became a military operation with Sam as the boss of all of them. Sam would have had final word over the military unlike when Elizabeth was there and John had the final say over anything military.

                      And when someone is "on loan" they are still military and if they work with someone who is also military the chain of command is upheld no matter what jobs they do or even if they don't wear uniforms at work. The fact that you are in the military always comes first.

                      I hope this helps clear things up.

                      Thank you so much, SR, for the clarification. It was really appreciated. I always like to learn and understand things as much as possible.

                      John was the military commander when Elizabeth was there because Elizabeth was a civilian, so now he no longer was the military commander with Carter there, since she was/ is also from the military. It makes perfect sense.

                      So with Carter there, and since she was part of the military, the final military decisions (and civilian as well) were always up to her. Got it.

                      Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                      *sighs* No, she did not. You're still ignoring the second part of her post where she says: "But even so, John would still have had to follow her orders and treat her like his military superior. He would no longer have been the "military commander" but the second in command because she outranked him. I know this gets confusing but it's just how the US military works. John would have still done his old job but technically, Sam would have been at the top of the military chain of command. "

                      Looks crystal clear to me. Carter might have been loaned to the IOA, but she is STILL a military officer and she and any other military officers in Atlantis will STILL follow the military chain of command. End of story.
                      All in all, Carter was the one that ended up having the full control of everything, she would be the one that ended up making the final decisions, no matter if military decisions or civilian decisions.

                      Exactly. Like I said, it was crystal clear to me from the beginning.
                      And now it is also (finally) crystal clear to me. Sorry, maybe I am not as smart as you are, LOL.
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                        Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                        Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and S-minus 5 hours and 18 minutes until the Echoes post-a-thon!



                        That's a good point about Sheppard being too much like O'Neill if he'd argued with Carter. On the other hand, there probably were ways to handle it without it seeming like a retread. Like you said, to let John do it "in his own way" with regards to forcing the issue on searching for Elizabeth, etc.

                        Hey, if you need a Sparky pick-me-up, maybe you'd like to join us for the post-a-thon today? We're watching Echoes, and there's nothing like that lovely faint-and-carry scene to brighten one's day! We start at 4:30 Eastern time, if you can make it! *hugs*



                        *snorts*







                        I'm not sure either. Oh well, we'll be able to refresh our memories in a few more weeks when we get to Season 4 on the post-a-thon schedule.
                        Echoes was my favorite episode until Vegas came along, so I will definitely be there. In fact Mr. SR suggested we go out to eat, and I said okay, but we had to be back by 4:30. We had a late lunch at Chili's and here I am.

                        Originally posted by mandogater View Post
                        I think there's a line in the episode where Sam takes over about the IOA worrying about the Asurans and wanting the person with the most knowledge of both the Repilcators and Ancient tech heading up the expedition.
                        Which means it was not a military operation but she was working in her capacity as a scientist. I didn't think they would let the US military have total control. Good to know.
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                          Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                          Thanks for those points. I had forgotten that about Carter and the rank, and I like what you added about John being too much like Jack if he had argued with her.



                          I'm not sure they really did militarize the base. That was never clear because Sam was wearing the expedition uniform, not her USAF uniform. It's a subtle distinction and may be yet another mistake from TPTB. Does anyone have info on whether it was stated that they made it a military operation? My memory is getting foggy this far removed.
                          I don't recall whether it was specifically stated on the show. There was buzz about it in fandom, but I don't think they said the word itself on screen.

                          Mr. SR and I watched the last Indiana Jones movie last night and I thought of Sam when they referred to Cate Blanchett's character as "Colonel Doctor." LOL
                          And then her head exploded

                          Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                          Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and S-minus 5 hours and 18 minutes until the Echoes post-a-thon!



                          That's a good point about Sheppard being too much like O'Neill if he'd argued with Carter. On the other hand, there probably were ways to handle it without it seeming like a retread. Like you said, to let John do it "in his own way" with regards to forcing the issue on searching for Elizabeth, etc.
                          I read without seeming like a retard. But yeah, it didn't need to be a full blown argument (mostly because he would have been fired transferred), just raising a suggestion or two


                          Originally posted by mandogater View Post
                          I think there's a line in the episode where Sam takes over about the IOA worrying about the Asurans and wanting the person with the most knowledge of both the Repilcators and Ancient tech heading up the expedition.
                          That was the Rodney/Radek convo. Surprisingly, based on that line, it actually would suggest Rodney is the most qualified person (in Pegasus, at the time). And that Sam was waaaaay overqualified for the job, especially given her military background. I would have thought that the skills needed to run atlantis would be: the ability to manage large groups of people, the ability to manage egos, the ability to function in a crisis and take advice where needed, and the ability to take the salient information out of any briefing and act accordingly
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                            Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                            Which means it was not a military operation but she was working in her capacity as a scientist. I didn't think they would let the US military have total control. Good to know.
                            Yep. Makes perfect sense. The IOA wanted somebody to save their backsides and didn't care who. Once that was done, said person would be caste aside.
                            I tell you Teal'c, hockey is the coolest game on Earth!

                            Did you not say it is played on ice, O'Neill?

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                              S-minus 1 hour and 25 minutes to the Echoes post-a-thon!

                              Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                              I'm going to do my best to be here... someone's gotta be here to squee about my psychologist, right.
                              We're all gonna be squeeing over Kate. Atlantis's Angels, FTW!

                              Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                              I read without seeming like a retard. But yeah, it didn't need to be a full blown argument (mostly because he would have been fired transferred), just raising a suggestion or two


                              Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                              That was the Rodney/Radek convo. Surprisingly, based on that line, it actually would suggest Rodney is the most qualified person (in Pegasus, at the time). And that Sam was waaaaay overqualified for the job, especially given her military background.
                              That's how I interpreted that line as well. And frankly, it makes sense that Rodney would be more qualified with Ancient technology and the Asuran Replicators; he's had the most hands-on-experience, after all. Carter's experience in Ancient tech was limited to whatever they found in the Milky Way and Ori tech (which, while derived from the same source, is still separated from Lantean Ancient tech by millions of years) and her experience with Replicators was specific to the Milky Way Replicators.

                              Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                              I would have thought that the skills needed to run atlantis would be: the ability to manage large groups of people, the ability to manage egos, the ability to function in a crisis and take advice where needed, and the ability to take the salient information out of any briefing and act accordingly
                              Hence, why Elizabeth was far more qualified as leader, and even Woolsey, with his flaws, is better suited to the job than Carter ever was. At least, I think so.
                              (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                              Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

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                                Oh phew, not too late... however, I got stuff to do yet... T-minus 50 minutes if I'm counting correctly.
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