Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

That's too bad, because I'd love to hear what you all think on the subject. My opinion is, as far as fanfic goes, any subtext is fair game. Because it's fanfic, something people do for fun! I am very careful about separating canon and fanon though. While I may see a certain scene as full of subtext for my preferred pairing, I know in the back of my mind that the intent behind the scene may be, and often is, completely different. Although I'm not sure I want to consider Stargate authors' actual intent behind subtext because we all know it's John/Teyla UST, and I can't get on board with that.
This reminds me of the many arguments on the Harry Potter boards where people couldn't agree if the author's own interpretation of her characters trumped everybody else's. On the one hand it sounds ridiculous (of course her interpretation is the only one that matters! She wrote the damn books!), but on the other hand, many people got so many things out of the books that the author never even considered, and all those things were backed up by canon. And this begs the question: what should the readers/veiwers do if their interpretation does not match the author's/show creator's? So yeah,it's an incredibly interesting topic for me.

Well, since I agree with what you said, I will venture a couple of comments. As far as subtext goes, I agree that anything is okay in fanon. And I would add that fans have no right to tell other fans that their interpretation of subtext is wrong. But, as far as canon goes, I think the intent of the writers has to be respected even if you hate it with the white hot hatred of a thousand suns.

The bolded part is where I particularly agree. They should have taken some time with Keller, I think. She got too much screen time too early at the expense of other characters,which led to resentment. I like Keller, so I did not have a problem with that, but I certainly understand why others did. I just wish the hate wasn't so strong. She does not deserve that.


ETA: Just started reading the first episode of SGA-Rising. I love the idea of a canon-compliant season 6,and I always preferred plot-heavy fanfic that captures the feel of the episodes. I think it's going to be an amazing journey!

Thanks for reading. Believe me, at times sticking to canon almost killed us all, but we were determined to do it. You'll find as the series goes on we go in new directions, but we still never change anything that happened on screen nor do we work subtext in any way into the episodes. Our characters grow and have new experiences, but they still remain true to their core beliefs.

[Raelis]

Well, since I agree with what you said, I will venture a couple of comments. As far as subtext goes, I agree that anything is okay in fanon. And I would add that fans have no right to tell other fans that their interpretation of subtext is wrong. But, as far as canon goes, I think the intent of the writers has to be respected even if you hate it with the white hot hatred of a thousand suns.

Oh yes, I agree with that! This is why I try to refrain from badmouthing the writers... though that doesn't always work, heh. it's just that some of their decsions are incredibly frustrating (like killing off Elizabeth... and then killing her again, and again.) I definitely respect their right to tell the story they want to tell... and my right to read fanfic that contradicts their intent in every way that is possible!

Thanks for reading. Believe me, at times sticking to canon almost killed us all, but we were determined to do it. You'll find as the series goes on we go in new directions, but we still never change anything that happened on screen nor do we work subtext in any way into the episodes. Our characters grow and have new experiences, but they still remain true to their core beliefs.

I'm already enjoying it! I loved the way you worked Nancy into narrative. I always thought she was interesting and very likeable, so it's nice to see some of her potential explored. My favorite thing has to be Teyla's frustration with being stuck on Earth. It rings very true. Neither she, nor Ronon would be content with being safe on Earth while their people are suffering from the Wraith in Pegasus.

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family and College Football Saturday! Good luck to everyone's teams!

More errands. More shopping. Will it ever end? *sighs*

I just honestly think John and Elizabeth have a more interesting relationship. One John/Teyla shipper once said that she could never see John/Elizabeth working because they would have too much conflict in their relationship whereas John and Teyla's would be mostly harmony.

*snorts* Clearly, that person forgot all about episodes like Letters From Pegasus, The Gift and Spoils of War where there's a culture clash royale. Harmony, my butt.

I'll just butt my head into the thread to say that I see John with chemistry with just about anyone, and see tons between him and Elizabeth as well as Teyla. Although the sister/brother vibe I get from Teyla and John is quite strong. I am a big fan of McShep, they just click (off and onscreen) so be it friendship or a relationship, it's my favorite pairing on the show. I really despise McKeller, it makes Rodney look creepy. I dislike it so much I really can't even read fic that keeps them as a couple (sorry to you guys and to the Graham novels). I do like Jewel though, she's such a pro and the writers did her a diservice with what they did with the character.

I am a huge supporter of John-Rodney bromance. Those two are totally BFFs.

Multishipper?

Definitely!

John/Elizabeth/Atlantis = OT3!

And I could never see Elizabeth with anyone else but John. Nope, not ever. Oh, I also liked John's ex-wife Nancy and would have been fine with her in his life.

Yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem with Nancy coming back, either. Hey, didn't Mallozzi say something about wanting to bring her back in S6?

Or maybe it's because I think John and Elizabeth both need a perspective that is different from their own, and them being together is a harmonious whole precisely because they complete each other. Yin and Yang, that sort of thing.

I couldn't have said that better myself.

Well, since I agree with what you said, I will venture a couple of comments. As far as subtext goes, I agree that anything is okay in fanon. And I would add that fans have no right to tell other fans that their interpretation of subtext is wrong. But, as far as canon goes, I think the intent of the writers has to be respected even if you hate it with the white hot hatred of a thousand suns.

THIS. And hey look! SGA Rising does.

Thanks for reading. Believe me, at times sticking to canon almost killed us all, but we were determined to do it. You'll find as the series goes on we go in new directions, but we still never change anything that happened on screen nor do we work subtext in any way into the episodes. Our characters grow and have new experiences, but they still remain true to their core beliefs.

Exactly. We're merely building upon the foundation that was laid on the TV series. That foundation's always there, and it's always going to have a huge influence on where we go.

[Raelis]

*snorts* Clearly, that person forgot all about episodes like Letters From Pegasus, The Gift and Spoils of War where there's a culture clash royale. Harmony, my butt.

Yeah. Given that she said the same thing about John/Ronon and John/Rodney friendships (harmony and conflict repsectively), I think she simply doesn't believe that civilians will ever understand the military mindset, and Teyla is a warrior, so her and John are meant to be, apparently. But I think it's a very narrow-minded view, honestly. And yes, the culture clash. John and Teyla's relationship is not as smooth and easy as that person wants to believe.

I am a huge supporter of John-Rodney bromance. Those two are totally BFFs.

Yeah, this is probably my favorite friendship in SGA (not counting John and Elizabeth because they're special)! I totally friendship them!

John/Elizabeth/Atlantis = OT3!

Yes, THIS. Atlantis is what brought them together and changed their lives. I sometimes wonder who is more in love with Atlantis - is it Elizabeth or John? And I can't find the answer.

Yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem with Nancy coming back, either. Hey, didn't Mallozzi say something about wanting to bring her back in S6?

I think he even said they were planning to get John and Nancy together romantically. Imagine the howling in all corners of the fandom if this had ever had to pass! Everyone's ships would be ruined, LOL.

[Pearl of Atlantis76]

If you want Elizabeth in your stories, your best bet is fanfic... plenty of fix-it fics around I imagine, or fics where simply never left. Sparky is one of the more popular pairings to write for so plenty of stuff to choose from.

Yeah, i am beginning to think that will be the only way. Fine by me! I love fix-it fanfics!! Yeah, i have so many to read now that i can't seem to be able to find the time to read all of them.

I like fix-it fics. They are very good. As long as they don't get too sappy. It is true, if you want her around, go to fanfic!

I will!!

I have some pics on my photobucket account if they might help you (pages 2 and 3 are the pics).

I looked at your photos (thanks for sharing! ) and wow! I loved that

Spoiler:

postcard from San Diego, in which John is writing to Rodney! (He has a very beautiful handwriting, by the way. ) And correct me if i am wrong, but John and Elizabeth are on their honeymoon?!! Wow, so sweet!!!! I love it!!! Oh and it i so funny that he addresses the postcard to Meredith and not Rodney, LOL!!! So funny!!

Wow, most of your photos are really great, some even made me cry.

Nope, they're not

Spoiler:

bringing Elizabeth back in the Legacy books. That is the last thing they would want because the authors are all Sheyla shippers and have written that into the books. That's fine, since it was the preferred ship of the studio. However, it was very badly done and ended up making everybody involved look ridiculous. I read Homecoming and couldn't stomach going any further. The whole reinvention of the Wraith is also bizarre, and what they did to poor Rodney isn't even a bit funny. I'm surprised that MGM allowed all that, but to each his own. Hopefully, someday they will do tie-in books that are a bit more canon oriented and better written. Also, at least one of the authors posts right here on GW in the book thread, but I don't think most of her loyal readers know who she is. LOL

Yes, we can tell that they are

Spoiler:

all Sheyla. Gosh!!! That's a real pity, because some of the plot, (some!!!) wasn't all that bad, IMO. Oh well, too bad for them, i am not going to buy any of the other books now, if they aren't going to bring Elizabeth back! I red Homecoming and Lost and was getting all excited because in Lost they actually bring Elizabeth back in a very subtle way, at least they are able to tell us, or at least they hint at it, that she has ascended, because she shows up to Rodney in his dreams and when Rodney asks her if she is dead, she tells him to ask Dr. Jackson, so after that i was kind of hopeful that she would eventually return, but it seems they just wanted to let us know what actually had happened to her. I also didn't like what they did to Rodney. But i didn't mind much the way they were going with the Wraith.

You can shoot me for this but done well/written well they can be a just as much a great couple as any other. There, I said it.

I'm sorry, I cannot abide the idea. I'll acknowledge that it can be written well, but I'm Sparky to the core!

I am with you, Sparky She-Demon, I am Sparky to the core and i also can't accept that idea. Sorry, FH.

I agree with this 100%. That's part of the reason Homecoming appalled me so much. But, and this is a big but, for me it mostly goes back to the lack of actor chemistry. I just couldn't see it on the show no matter how much they tried to make me believe it. But with Sparky, they didn't even try and after years of "move along, nothing to see here" they still haven't convinced me that it wasn't real. *iz stubborn*

I am also pretty stubborn, in that aspect!!!

Spoiler:

Even when Teyla used to hug John on season 4 (she did it a few times) i still couldn't see anything there, and the hugs almost seemed so forced.

I'm going by what I saw in Rising at the very beginning... and I've read a couple of good fics back in the day. And there are those that flirt with the idea (I've done that myself with that Long Goodbye tag I wrote). It just depends, I guess...

I agree that it might have happened something in Rising, but that was it, in all the other episodes, i don't think so. John was never "there" with her, in that aspect.

[Southern Red]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Happy Sparky!Family and College Football Saturday! Good luck to everyone's teams!

More errands. More shopping. Will it ever end? *sighs*

End? It has barely begun. I have bought a few gifts, but mostly I have managed to make out my list of everything I have to do for the next month.

Yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem with Nancy coming back, either. Hey, didn't Mallozzi say something about wanting to bring her back in S6?

I think he did. He also said John was going to find Elizabeth and bring her back, so all kinds of possibilities there.

[Scary Kitty]

Yes, THIS. Atlantis is what brought them together and changed their lives. I sometimes wonder who is more in love with Atlantis - is it Elizabeth or John? And I can't find the answer.

As Tony Stark once said: "Is it too much to ask for both?"

I think he even said they were planning to get John and Nancy together romantically. Imagine the howling in all corners of the fandom if this had ever had to pass! Everyone's ships would be ruined, LOL.

At least we'd be all going down together. The concession sales alone would've raked in millions.

End? It has barely begun. I have bought a few gifts, but mostly I have managed to make out my list of everything I have to do for the next month.

*cackles*

I think he did. He also said John was going to find Elizabeth and bring her back, so all kinds of possibilities there.

John/Elizabeth/Nancy. I would so ship that.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

would like to see a longer version, skyfall with SGA is pretty cool.

[Falcon Horus]

I see that too. If John and Teyla had shown that teasing side that I've seen from Joe and Rachel, I might have shipped them. But the sibling vibe is just too strong.

Later on - after they had their moment - Teyla was the one to make sure he came back in one piece. Keep the boys in check, out of trouble and all that.

Agree on the McShep chemistry, and I think the Joe/David chemistry is even stronger. But seeing romance in it just baffles me when they are obviously both straight both in SGA and in RL.

In fanfic anything is possible... remember...

Cause if we have to stick to what we know from the show there are no gay people on the expedition which is downright ridiculous to start with. That's just statistically speaking not possible.

As far as the actors go... I stay as far away from Real People Fic as possible. That's just crossing boundaries which shouldn't be crossed in the first place.

Could anyone control John Sheppard?

I'm having a hard time putting "control" and "John Sheppard" in the same sentence, so no I doubt anyone can.

So of course slashers would turn their gaze on the characters that are presented as straight and try and find some subtext for shipping. It's because straight characters are all they have.

I could try to explain why I ship Kate with Teyla, but I can't really. Sure, the only one we see Kate interact with much is Teyla, and they're obviously friends. So from there I'd say it's only a small jump to imagine them as something more than just friends. Canonically speaking Teyla could be classified as straight seeing as how she's linked to male characters on at least two different occasions (although the marine referred to in McKay & Mrs Miller isn't really referred to as being male - I think, can't really remember). But Kanaan blows any doubt out of the water... And I ship them as canon couple. For the little we saw I really like them together.

Then again - I'm a multishipper. I've written different pairings (het, slash, femslash, threesomes, crossover pairings) and all of them would probably never have happened on the show to begin with. So yeah...

Personally, I don't think shipping John/Rodney or John/Ronon or Teyla/Jennifer (my femslash pairing of choice) (1) or Teyla/Kate is any different that shipping John/Elizabeth in terms of canonicity (is that a word?) (2).

(1) I imagine that pairing doesn't have much fanfics either?
I wrote Jennifer/Kate once. I think there aren't many of those either.

(2) If it wasn't, then it is now.

All these pairings are not canon, but all have subtext that one could interpret as friendly/sibling or romantic. I see some subtext in this show that simply begs to be interpreted in a slashy way (the scene in Outcast comes to mind where Dave's reaction to John and Ronon is a bit peculiar). So I can totally see where the slashers are coming from!

Subtext to me is putting those rose-tinted glasses to good use.

There's also Elizabeth/Cameron who never had any screentime together...

Didn't they have screentime together in SG1's Pegasus Project?

This is the joy of being a multishipper, I guess - you can see so many different takes on one character depending on who he/she is paired with, so many facets explored.

Good point.

I've found two parts, and one part that was saved on my netbook, but not the whole chapter inbetween. Gods, I just wanna smack myself right now. I don't know why, but the fic bunnies really want me to write this fic. Guess it's gonna have to be a weekend project. *shrugs*

Well, at least you got something.

I once lost an entire SG1/Pearl Harbor crossover fic... never did a rewrite of that though.

I think Rodney/Keller is a much better match that the dysfunctional Rodney/Katie (I shudder when I think about their scenes in Quarantine)...

HEY!! Rodney/Katie wasn't dysfunctional... they were cute together. I even liked Rodney better when he was around Katie, except obviously in Quarantine. There she should have smacked him upside the head.

John/Elizabeth/Atlantis = OT3!

That doesn't make you a multishipper...

John/Elizabeth/Nancy. I would so ship that.

That's three different ships now... you're getting closer to becoming a probie multishipper...

I think he even said they were planning to get John and Nancy together romantically. Imagine the howling in all corners of the fandom if this had ever had to pass! Everyone's ships would be ruined, LOL.

Ships would have sailed... no doubt about it. It wouldn't have silenced the fandom, though. Not by a long shot.

...I am Sparky to the core and i also can't accept that idea. Sorry, FH.

Why feel the need to apologize? As long as you're not going to go around stamping on my preferred ship (which is not J/T before anyone gets some crazy ideas), I'll be able to overlook your shortcomings...

No, seriously... I respect that you have Sparky as your OTP, and all others be damned. Just don't apologize for something that I know you don't care about. It only makes you look bad.

I am also pretty stubborn, in that aspect!!!

Spoiler:

Even when Teyla used to hug John on season 4 (she did it a few times) i still couldn't see anything there, and the hugs almost seemed so forced.

Didn't she only hug him once? In Doppelganger, right after losing Kate?

Besides, John's always been an awkard hugger... kinda reminds me of me.

[Scary Kitty]

I'm having a hard time putting "control" and "John Sheppard" in the same sentence, so no I doubt anyone can.

The very idea makes my head spin.

Didn't they have screentime together in SG1's Pegasus Project?

Barely, though. Elizabeth/Daniel had a lot more. And then there's all those Elizabeth/Daniel moments in Lost City and New Order. Hmm, I could probably ship that too.

HEY!! Rodney/Katie wasn't dysfunctional... they were cute together. I even liked Rodney better when he was around Katie, except obviously in Quarantine. There she should have smacked him upside the head.

With a frying pan. Or maybe a spare ZPM.

That doesn't make you a multishipper...


That's three different ships now... you're getting closer to becoming a probie multishipper...

Ships would have sailed... no doubt about it. It wouldn't have silenced the fandom, though. Not by a long shot.

If anything, there'd be a lot more shooting.

Didn't she only hug him once? In Doppelganger, right after losing Kate?

Besides, John's always been an awkard hugger... kinda reminds me of me.

I think she hugged him again in Quarantine. Or was it Spoils of War? Oh well, I suppose we'll find out when we get there in the post-a-thon.

[Falcon Horus]

With a frying pan. Or maybe a spare ZPM.

The ZPM would have to be empty, so I'd have to say use the frying pan to be on the safe side...

Spoiler:

If anything, there'd be a lot more shooting.

That reminds me of a rather heated discussion with a J/T-lover about Kanaan's appearance, how ships had sailed for the both of us... NOT a good idea.

Definitely more shooting... or basically a lot more of this ->

I think she hugged him again in Quarantine. Or was it Spoils of War? Oh well, I suppose we'll find out when we get there in the post-a-thon.

Oh, could be... I think Lorne patted her on the shoulder in Spoils of War. He did comfort her when she was having doubts. The quarantine-hug might have been before John decided to play Spiderman without spider-part. Nah, can't remember (even though I saw that episode 6 times or so).

[mandogater]

The ZPM would have to be empty, so I'd have to say use the frying pan to be on the safe side...

Spoiler:

Being where they were in that episode a gardening tool of some sort would have been more handy.

[Falcon Horus]

Being where they were in that episode a gardening tool of some sort would have been more handy.

A spade then, instead of the frying pan...

[Southern Red]

would like to see a longer version, skyfall with SGA is pretty cool.

That was really cool, and the music fits perfectly.

Didn't she only hug him once? In Doppelganger, right after losing Kate?

Besides, John's always been an awkard hugger... kinda reminds me of me.

She also hugged him in Spoils of War out on the balcony when she got emotional about her baby. He patted her awkwardly and kind of leaned against her to comfort her, but considering she was pregnant with another man's baby, I don't see how it could have been shippy. That was around the time I was so sure S4 would be the year Sheyla became canon. Boy was I happy to be wrong.

[mandogater]

A spade then, instead of the frying pan...

That was the word I couldn't think of. *Gibbs' slaps self again*