Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Sparky She-Demon]

As long as John and Liz stop fighting against a relationship and accept that they're really head over heals with eachother, I wouldn't mind if it was one huge nightmare, as long as it wasn't really sappy.

How much time would you think would be a good time to have passed? Of course the reunion couldn't be too sappy, because that's just not their style. I agree with them stop fighting their obvious feelings for each other!

[Sparky She-Demon]

I've never read fics like that.

[Falcon Horus]

I've never read fics like that.

I think you should just go ahead and give it a go... if you don't like it, you don't have to continue reading. If you do, then there are already 7 episodes to enjoy.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Started the first episode of Atlantis Rising. Glad a certain character got mentioned!

[Falcon Horus]

Started the first episode of Atlantis Rising. Glad a certain character got mentioned!

Also, as a reminder, anything that is subject to Rising should be posted in the appropriate thread. Spoilers should be hidden underneath a cut (spoiler-space), especially anything dealing with future episodes and/or episodes being posted at the moment.

[Sparky She-Demon]

I could be talking about any brunette.

[Falcon Horus]

I could be talking about any brunette.

Of course...

[Sequoia Hope]

Anyway, my old time buddies here have all seen this but you new folks haven't. http://mathgirl24.livejournal.com/11496.html

OMG, these are hilarious. I especially like the one with John and Colonel Everett in the Hologram room. Thanks for sharing!

* I can almost buy Weir being injured in FS as an afterthought. It would make s4 interesting, wouldn't it? She'd have to volunteer to go on the Lifeline mission

I heard somewhere that unlike Paul McGillion, who was told that his character was being killed off months before the actual shooting, the writers actually didn't know what they wanted to do with Elizabeth until the last few days of shooting Season 3. I always wondered if this meant that they were uncertain whether letting her go would a good move, or if it would negatively impact the show.

A lot of people complained about the stuff in Sunday that had Rodney and Carson as BFFs, but they must have forgotten Hide and Seek where it was shown that they were very friendly. Throughout the show, I think we got scenes of casual, comfortable friendliness between them. And you're right, Rodney wanted to be John. Coup d'Etat is a good example of that.

Carson and Rodney were such good friends, because Carson was pretty much the one person who could take Rodney's whining and arrogance and not complain. He saw the best in Rodney and softened his pompous personality whenever it got too much. I think that Rodney did envy John at times when he saw how all the marines followed their colonel's orders, and he was stuck with a bunch of scientists who couldn't keep up with him. And while John and Rodney could get along well at times, I wouldn't consider them best friends.

These writers were just incapable of changing directions or making adjustments. I honestly don't think, if you can believe what TPTB consistently said all 5 years, that they ever considered anything between John and Elizabeth to be hinting at ship when they were doing it. Yeah, maybe later on a couple of commentaries, but all involved, even Torri and Joe, were always consistent in denying it. And remember also that none of them, as far as we know, watched the finished product. So, let's say you are a photographer, and your assignment is to take a pic of some daisies. You snap a bunch of pics and send them to your boss thinking you have done a great job showing how pretty the daisies are, but the boss looks closely and sees a skunk hiding under the flowers. Did you intend to photograph a skunk? Bad analogy but sorta gets my point across.

Hmmm, really? I suppose that watching yourself on-screen as a different character might feel a bit strange, but I wonder if it would have been a wise decision for them to watch the episodes when they were aired, so they could have gotten an idea of what the fans were seeing and what direction the show had the potential to take.

I really wish we had seen more friendship scenes with Teyla and Elizabeth. *sighs*

Agreed. They actually had some great scenes together at the very end of Season 3 in "Sunday," "Vengeance," and "First Strike." The writers could have gone somewhere with them... they just had to write Elizabeth out.

I hate to say it, but if they had really been serious about killing off someone to make the show more "realistic" to the audience (the utterly lame excuse they used to justify getting rid of Elizabeth, Carson and Kate), then they really should've killed off a member of Sheppard's team, since they were consistently in greater danger, always being out on the front lines and all. With both Ronon and Teyla having some overlap in their character traits and both being wallpapered, sadly, one of them would've been a more logical candidate to go.

Also agree with this. Killing off a member of John's team would have demonstrated that they were not invulnerable, that because they took risks every day, they were just as susceptible to the dangers off-world, and tragedies sometimes just can't be prevented.

I totally agree with you on this. But then if that's the case, why did they introduce Teyla's pregnancy there, it didn't make much sense.

Teyla's pregnancy was introduced, because Rachell Luttrell got pregnant in real life. It completely thwarted TPTW's plans, had they any, for any future ship between John and Teyla, because it wouldn't have looked good for either character to be involved in a secret relationship. Not that we're complaining...?

By the way, Pearl (you and others may address me as Sparks, by the way ), is it all right with you if I share the same Atlantis Rising signature as you? Your current signature happens to be my favorite one for Atlantis Rising, and if it's all right with you, I'd like to have it as my signature, too. However, I can change it if you prefer that we don't share the same signature.

[Falcon Horus]

Your current signature happens to be my favorite one for Atlantis Rising, and if it's all right with you, I'd like to have it as my signature, too. However, I can change it if you prefer that we don't share the same signature.

Many people on here share the same signature, yet asking is good. However, as a little hint. Your signature currently exceeds the forum limits. The whole thing can't actually be bigger than 250 px high, and thus you'll have to remove the text-block underneath it.

[Southern Red]

I heard somewhere that unlike Paul McGillion, who was told that his character was being killed off months before the actual shooting, the writers actually didn't know what they wanted to do with Elizabeth until the last few days of shooting Season 3. I always wondered if this meant that they were uncertain whether letting her go would a good move, or if it would negatively impact the show.

Actually, they surely knew before the end of S3 that they were letting Torri go because the main reason for it was to put Amanda Tapping on the show. They just didn't bother to inform Torri until then, and they conveniently waited until most everyone else had gone home for the break because they knew that it wouldn't go over real big, particularly with JF. They indicated that they didn't know where to take the character so decided to let her go.

Hmmm, really? I suppose that watching yourself on-screen as a different character might feel a bit strange, but I wonder if it would have been a wise decision for them to watch the episodes when they were aired, so they could have gotten an idea of what the fans were seeing and what direction the show had the potential to take.

Well duh, you would think. So, as a result at least with the actors, what they thought they were showing us at times turned out to be the opposite.

By the way, Pearl (you and others may address me as Sparks, by the way ), is it all right with you if I share the same Atlantis Rising signature as you? Your current signature happens to be my favorite one for Atlantis Rising, and if it's all right with you, I'd like to have it as my signature, too. However, I can change it if you prefer that we don't share the same signature.

*puts on showrunner hat* If I'm not mistaken, that sig came from a collection of downloads on the SGA Rising site. They are available for all to use, but that particular one and several others contain a HUGE spoiler. We probably should not have included them until that episode was written. There are bunches of them that don't reveal our big surprise. Just go to our site and look under "downloads" and then "banners" and I would ask everyone to please use one without Elizabeth for now.

[Brie]

Yeah, it was Kate's nightmare.

But I think you might have thought that since they didn't actually show anyone else of the secondary/tertiary characters apart from Lorne, have nightmares that you got it mixed up with a Teyla dream. However...

Spoiler:

...when Kate... falls to her death off the tower...the sequence fades to black and the next scene starts with the door to Kate's quarters opening and Keller entering, finding a distraught Teyla there.

Also it didn't go unnoticed by yours truly that Teyla has access to Kate's quarters.

Of course, looking back it does make sense, I guess since it’s not my favorite episode and all of the things in it that doesn’t make any sense it’s hard to keep track.

Spoiler:

I did notice that but I guess that her being in the Kate’s quarter made me draw the conclusion that it had been Teyla’s dream and it was her fear of what had happened in her dream that made her rush to see Kate when she woke up, but again it was a while ago I saw it and I haven’t seen it that many times either that I really though much of it, I was thinking more about what happened to Kate rather than how it happened

Actually, they surely knew before the end of S3 that they were letting Torri go because the main reason for it was to put Amanda Tapping on the show. They just didn't bother to inform Torri until then, and they conveniently waited until most everyone else had gone home for the break because they knew that it wouldn't go over real big, particularly with JF. They indicated that they didn't know where to take the character so decided to let her go.

The whole thing was just so poorly handled that I’m not surprised that Torri wasn’t willing to bend to their will later on by staying around so that she could come back whenever THEY wanted the character back, I’m proud of her for it actually because in my opinion you don’t threat people like that, especially as adult, I mean sometimes you have to let people go, it’s not that I mean but it’s how you do it and that could have been handled better. The sad part is that when you look back now later and see how season 4 and 5 were written that there are so many parts of it that could have changed so that everyone could have been happy.




And I have to say that I get characters dies on TV, I mean when you’re at war it wouldn’t make much sense otherwise however I do feel that if you look at SG-1 where they have the same lead characters and no one dies (well, stays dead anyway) for 8 seasons until RDA and Don S. Davis decided to step down and they get some new characters but my point is why they could go 8 seasons with the exact same main characters yet SGA couldn’t even go more than a season before killing of someone (Ford) and then by the time season 4 came around two more main characters (Elizabeth and Carson) were gone, it’s a very strange logic.

[Eri13]

OMG, these are hilarious. I especially like the one with John and Colonel Everett in the Hologram room. Thanks for sharing!

I heard somewhere that unlike Paul McGillion, who was told that his character was being killed off months before the actual shooting, the writers actually didn't know what they wanted to do with Elizabeth until the last few days of shooting Season 3. I always wondered if this meant that they were uncertain whether letting her go would a good move, or if it would negatively impact the show.

Carson and Rodney were such good friends, because Carson was pretty much the one person who could take Rodney's whining and arrogance and not complain. He saw the best in Rodney and softened his pompous personality whenever it got too much. I think that Rodney did envy John at times when he saw how all the marines followed their colonel's orders, and he was stuck with a bunch of scientists who couldn't keep up with him. And while John and Rodney could get along well at times, I wouldn't consider them best friends.

Hmmm, really? I suppose that watching yourself on-screen as a different character might feel a bit strange, but I wonder if it would have been a wise decision for them to watch the episodes when they were aired, so they could have gotten an idea of what the fans were seeing and what direction the show had the potential to take.

Agreed. They actually had some great scenes together at the very end of Season 3 in "Sunday," "Vengeance," and "First Strike." The writers could have gone somewhere with them... they just had to write Elizabeth out.

Also agree with this. Killing off a member of John's team would have demonstrated that they were not invulnerable, that because they took risks every day, they were just as susceptible to the dangers off-world, and tragedies sometimes just can't be prevented.

Teyla's pregnancy was introduced, because Rachell Luttrell got pregnant in real life. It completely thwarted TPTW's plans, had they any, for any future ship between John and Teyla, because it wouldn't have looked good for either character to be involved in a secret relationship. Not that we're complaining...?

By the way, Pearl (you and others may address me as Sparks, by the way ), is it all right with you if I share the same Atlantis Rising signature as you? Your current signature happens to be my favorite one for Atlantis Rising, and if it's all right with you, I'd like to have it as my signature, too. However, I can change it if you prefer that we don't share the same signature.

Actually, they surely knew before the end of S3 that they were letting Torri go because the main reason for it was to put Amanda Tapping on the show. They just didn't bother to inform Torri until then, and they conveniently waited until most everyone else had gone home for the break because they knew that it wouldn't go over real big, particularly with JF. They indicated that they didn't know where to take the character so decided to let her go.

Well duh, you would think. So, as a result at least with the actors, what they thought they were showing us at times turned out to be the opposite.

*puts on showrunner hat* If I'm not mistaken, that sig came from a collection of downloads on the SGA Rising site. They are available for all to use, but that particular one and several others contain a HUGE spoiler. We probably should not have included them until that episode was written. There are bunches of them that don't reveal our big surprise. Just go to our site and look under "downloads" and then "banners" and I would ask everyone to please use one without Elizabeth for now.

I can say that sometimes when you work in the industry, after everything that goes into putting together an episode, watching the final product may not be terribly exciting. The final product is a shortened version of all the work that was put into it. And it's work, like any job. I do :30 promo spots, and it can take a month to deliver a final product. I do watch the final cut, but I'm mostly analyzing it for approval. Only if it turned out incredibly do I pause to recognize that. I suppose if you're shooting for 16 hour days, rewatching dailies, etc--and it takes months for the completed product to air, it's just not as shiny as it is for a fan.

Plus, there is so much more into the build of production. Most episodes have much more in the script and shoots than viewers see. Shooting schedules, etc. Scripts have certainly been written and approved, and given to actors, before many prior episodes are laid down for final cut, so they may not be thinking to remember how they acted a few weeks prior. At that point, even if you get to watch the episodes that have been finished if they've been finished, another few have already been shot between now and then so it's difficult to keep character continuous.

That's why writers rooms and show bibles become so important, or at least having a Showrunner who keeps it all together, works well with their actors, and in general just loves their show concept. The good Showrunners (Andrew Marlowe comes to mind) know their characters and plots, and know when they screen teleplays for the first time that a character shift could occur if a character was written in a particular way. They organize it all ahead of time to prevent too much shifting within different writer scripts, work with the actors to discuss character development, keep their directors on an even keel and in general have it so in hand so that it's not even really necessary to watch the final product, at least for the actors. Though I believe those types of showrunners do.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Lazy Sunday and S-minus 4 hours and 45 minutes until No Man's Land!

On the College Football Round-up... Virginia Tech had a bye this week, Georgia knocked off #2-ranked Florida 17-9, USC lost to Arizona 39-36, Tennessee lost to South Carolina 38-35, Air Force beat Nevada 48-31, and Navy beat East Carolina 56-28. So... not so good a week for me and PK, but darn good for everyone else.

The whole thing was just so poorly handled that I’m not surprised that Torri wasn’t willing to bend to their will later on by staying around so that she could come back whenever THEY wanted the character back, I’m proud of her for it actually because in my opinion you don’t threat people like that, especially as adult, I mean sometimes you have to let people go, it’s not that I mean but it’s how you do it and that could have been handled better. The sad part is that when you look back now later and see how season 4 and 5 were written that there are so many parts of it that could have changed so that everyone could have been happy.

In many respects, that's the worst part of all of this. There were so many pieces to S4-5 that had a lot of potential for interesting stories and clever developments for characters, things that TPTW planned, and things that came up out of the blue that they had to deal with (like Rachel's pregnancy). But in nearly every case, they didn't come out nearly as satisfying as they could have. Hindsight is always 20-20, I suppose.

I can say that sometimes when you work in the industry, after everything that goes into putting together an episode, watching the final product may not be terribly exciting. The final product is a shortened version of all the work that was put into it. And it's work, like any job. I do :30 promo spots, and it can take a month to deliver a final product. I do watch the final cut, but I'm mostly analyzing it for approval. Only if it turned out incredibly do I pause to recognize that. I suppose if you're shooting for 16 hour days, rewatching dailies, etc--and it takes months for the completed product to air, it's just not as shiny as it is for a fan.

Plus, there is so much more into the build of production. Most episodes have much more in the script and shoots than viewers see. Shooting schedules, etc. Scripts have certainly been written and approved, and given to actors, before many prior episodes are laid down for final cut, so they may not be thinking to remember how they acted a few weeks prior. At that point, even if you get to watch the episodes that have been finished if they've been finished, another few have already been shot between now and then so it's difficult to keep character continuous.

That's why writers rooms and show bibles become so important, or at least having a Showrunner who keeps it all together, works well with their actors, and in general just loves their show concept. The good Showrunners (Andrew Marlowe comes to mind) know their characters and plots, and know when they screen teleplays for the first time that a character shift could occur if a character was written in a particular way. They organize it all ahead of time to prevent too much shifting within different writer scripts, work with the actors to discuss character development, keep their directors on an even keel and in general have it so in hand so that it's not even really necessary to watch the final product, at least for the actors. Though I believe those types of showrunners do.

And why I find it mystifying that TPTW felt that they didn't need to have a show bible for Atlantis. One would think that after seven years of doing SG-1 (at that point), they'd have realized that with all the complicated stuff they throw out there, they'd be well-served by having some sort of central document to refer back to that would keep them all on the same level. Guess they thought they were too good for that. Except that they weren't.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Of course...

But, I'm not just talking about any brunette...

[Falcon Horus]

And why I find it mystifying that TPTW felt that they didn't need to have a show bible for Atlantis. One would think that after seven years of doing SG-1 (at that point), they'd have realized that with all the complicated stuff they throw out there, they'd be well-served by having some sort of central document to refer back to that would keep them all on the same level. Guess they thought they were too good for that. Except that they weren't.

You'll never gonna find them saying that though... ...admit it's better to have a show bible than to have none. I mean, heck, look at us at Atlantis Rising... we're amateurs (no offence to the great authors whom I consider far beyond amateurs btw) but we hammered it all out and literally had sticky notes all over the place. Doubt, you could call that a show bible but we left no stone unturned, right.