Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

Wasn't it because Jason Momoa was dead set on leaving after season 5? I guess they would have had to kill him, because it was the only plausible way to explain Ronon leaving the show. There's no way Ronon would want to leave the team,or Atlantis, so death would have probably been the only option. As a Ronon fan, I am glad that season 5 wad the last.

I heard that also, and that Jason wanted Ronon to stay dead in EatG. But who knows the real truth. You can't blame Jason for wanting to do something that gave him a bigger role.

same question here.

I love the fact that they wanted her to be back, but why season 6? why so late? They could have easily done it in season 5 after ghost in the machine.

I don't understand this John/Teyla thing at all. If he really wanted them to be together John would be the father of Teyla's child but he isn't. so it's pretty clear for me that there will never be John/Teyla at all, even if there was a season 6. she has a family and it would be so stupid if they become a couple after having a child with another man.

S6 wouldn't have been late if they got renewed. They were just plotting out possible ideas for that season and with the cancellation, it all fell apart. Just because JM said it was an idea doesn't mean it would ever have been done. He may have been pandering to fans and/or just throwing out ideas. If you have been following his recap of SGA, you have seen him mention tons of ideas that never got written.

We don't understand John/Teyla because we don't ship them, but their shippers feel as strongly about them as we do Sparky. TPTB made it pretty plain for all 5 seasons and even since that they would go with John/Teyla at some point. We just don't like to believe it because of what we saw with our own two eyes what we peferred. They would most likely have killed off Kanaan. It would have been the easiest way, but JM himself said Teyla got her happy ending and that was that for now. He left it open to revisit her love life in the future. Besides all that, JM is only one voice out of many. The other writers/producers all had a vote also.

Either way, it didn't happen and it's canon that John grieved over Elizabeth, so we got a pretty good deal. We all have fanfic to console ourselves.

[Raelis]

I heard that also, and that Jason wanted Ronon to stay dead in EatG. But who knows the real truth. You can't blame Jason for wanting to do something that gave him a bigger role.

I don't blame him. I also don't think in this situation it would have been fair to blame the TPTB either.

I also heard that Momoa did not like the idea of Ronon/Keller, which may be the reason why the writers decided not to got with that ship.

TPTB made it pretty plain for all 5 seasons and even since that they would go with John/Teyla at some point.

Which is what puzzles me: if they wanted that all along, why didn't they just go for it? It's so wierd. I really don't understand them at all...

[Southern Red]

I don't blame him. I also don't think in this situation it would have been fair to blame the TPTB either.

I also heard that Momoa did not like the idea of Ronon/Keller, which may be the reason why the writers decided not to got with that ship.



Which is what puzzles me: if they wanted that all along, why didn't they just go for it? It's so wierd. I really don't understand them at all...

I don't think it's all that hard to understand. They were operating under the false assumption that hooking up their star in a permanent relationship would spoil the show. They wanted to keep him free to have casual romances. It's what action heroes do when written by men. LOL With the exception of Babylon Five, I can't think of another show that didn't follow this exact pattern with their lead actor. It was tease, tease, tease and then get them together in the last season. Bones is trying to do it differently and is reaping the wrath of fandom for it. We'll see how Castle turns out. I still have high hopes for them. The X Files tried it and the show ended shortly thereafter. Show business types are not known for their flexibility and the fans don't like change.

They thought it was obvious who John was going to end up with and couldn't understand that a lot of us disagreed. Just look at the huge OMG!What? reaction they had when we shut down GW after the hug with all the Sparky fans online. Yes, it happened. I was a witness. Then Gero came out and told us we were wrong to see any ship...move along now, nothing to see here. Logic, of course, would have made them think about it and decide...hmmm, this many fans want this...hmmm.

[Raelis]

I don't think it's all that hard to understand. They were operating under the false assumption that hooking up their star in a permanent relationship would spoil the show. They wanted to keep him free to have casual romances. It's what action heroes do when written by men. LOL With the exception of Babylon Five, I can't think of another show that didn't follow this exact pattern with their lead actor. It was tease, tease, tease and then get them together in the last season. Bones is trying to do it differently and is reaping the wrath of fandom for it. We'll see how Castle turns out. I still have high hopes for them. The X Files tried it and the show ended shortly thereafter. Show business types are not known for their flexibility and the fans don't like change.

Nope, still don't understand. I get it that they thought that a permanent relationship for the Hero of the show was bad, but if they were still planning to hook him up with Teyla, they should have at least provided some reason for why these two hadn't acted on their 'attraction' even once. They did it with Sam/Jack - they kept them from becoming a couple, but they also gave the audience a reason for why this was not going to happen (Sam and Jack would be breaking regulations). If they wanted the viewers to believe that John and Teyla were desperately attracted to each other, they should have given us a plausible reason for their reluctance to act on the attraction... but they did not give any such reasons. Other shows I watched also usually gave some reason as for why the lead man and the lead lady could not become a couple. I don't see any obstacles in John and Teyla's way, no misunderstandings, no regulations, no love triangles, no other issues, nothing. This is why I don't believe they were ever going to go full-tilt John/Teyla.

[CaptainMina90]

don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against John/Teyla shippers at all. as you said, everyone has their own opinion. It just would be weird for me if they would end up together after Teyla's pregnancy because John is not the father. Even if they would have killed Kanaan off the series it still would be disturbing (for me)

and just as you said, just because JM said it was an idea doesn't mean it would ever have been done. if his opinion about John and Teyla was so important, why we have seen so many scenes where John and Liz were so close together in almost every episode.

[Southern Red]

Nope, still don't understand. I get it that they thought that a permanent relationship for the Hero of the show was bad, but if they were still planning to hook him up with Teyla, they should have at least provided some reason for why these two hadn't acted on their 'attraction' even once. They did it with Sam/Jack - they kept them from becoming a couple, but they also gave the audience a reason for why this was not going to happen (Sam and Jack would be breaking regulations). If they wanted the viewers to believe that John and Teyla were desperately attracted to each other, they should have given us a plausible reason for their reluctance to act on the attraction... but they did not give any such reasons. Other shows I watched also usually gave some reason as for why the lead man and the lead lady could not become a couple. I don't see any obstacles in John and Teyla's way, no misunderstandings, no regulations, no love triangles, no other issues, nothing. This is why I don't believe they were ever going to go full-tilt John/Teyla.

Oh, now I get why you are confused. I think it was because Teyla was on John's team. Technically, he was her leader. She chose to take orders from him, so that made him her boss in the field and in team matters. It would have been a bit tacky and they would have had to remove her from his team. The IOA would have had a fit. In explaining why they didn't make John the father of her baby, Mallozzi said they thought it wouldn't be right since she was on his team. I think they were planning to wait until they knew the show was ending and have them suddenly look at each other and go "I wuv you." But her real life pregnancy spoiled that plan. The only moral and PG way to go now would be to kill off Kanaan and have most of a season pass before getting them together. Stargate has always been PG, so secret love affairs, and having the hero split up a family would not have been allowed. And yes, I realize they were inconsistent with this considering John's kirking in S2. Trying to get inside the minds of TPTB is kinda scary.

[Brie]

Nope, still don't understand. I get it that they thought that a permanent relationship for the Hero of the show was bad, but if they were still planning to hook him up with Teyla, they should have at least provided some reason for why these two hadn't acted on their 'attraction' even once. They did it with Sam/Jack - they kept them from becoming a couple, but they also gave the audience a reason for why this was not going to happen (Sam and Jack would be breaking regulations). If they wanted the viewers to believe that John and Teyla were desperately attracted to each other, they should have given us a plausible reason for their reluctance to act on the attraction... but they did not give any such reasons. Other shows I watched also usually gave some reason as for why the lead man and the lead lady could not become a couple. I don't see any obstacles in John and Teyla's way, no misunderstandings, no regulations, no love triangles, no other issues, nothing. This is why I don't believe they were ever going to go full-tilt John/Teyla.

Who knows, I mean we know that Kanaan wasn’t just a fling for Teyla since Elizabeth knew about him in GitM + it’s obvious what Teyla’s feeling are for him in ‘Broken Ties’ and you also see that they clearly share a room on Atlantis, my point is the same as you that even if she did have a baby with someone else, they didn’t have to keep it up like that if they wanted to indicate someone else, but who knows.

[Brie]

They thought it was obvious who John was going to end up with and couldn't understand that a lot of us disagreed. Just look at the huge OMG!What? reaction they had when we shut down GW after the hug with all the Sparky fans online. Yes, it happened. I was a witness. Then Gero came out and told us we were wrong to see any ship...move along now, nothing to see here. Logic, of course, would have made them think about it and decide...hmmm, this many fans want this...hmmm.

Haha, I didn’t know that but that is so cool, and after listening to the commentaries (where both Joe and David were awfully quiet during that scene and only Gero said that).
I agree that they wanted it to be obvious but I must say that when I was watching though the season 1 promo pics it does feel as if the picture tell a different story, and not even in the pictures of just John and Elizabeth but it’s also something to see in the group pics with them and all or a few of the rest of the cast.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[IMG]

Now I don’t know how you’re supposed to view promo pics but for me they always felt as if they were supposed to make people interested in the characters of a show (though it may not be the idea behind every promo shot for every TV show) but with the season 1 pics it felt this way and I don’t think TPTB had nothing to do with it or at least they must have had a photographer hired by TPTB who took them and told them to stand and act in a certain way.

[Southern Red]

Haha, I didn’t know that but that is so cool, and after listening to the commentaries (where both Joe and David were awfully quiet during that scene and only Gero said that).
I agree that they wanted it to be obvious but I must say that when I was watching though the season 1 promo pics it does feel as if the picture tell a different story, and not even in the pictures of just John and Elizabeth but it’s also something to see in the group pics with them and all or a few of the rest of the cast.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[IMG]

Now I don’t know how you’re supposed to view promo pics but for me they always felt as if they were supposed to make people interested in the characters of a show (though it may not be the idea behind every promo shot for every TV show) but with the season 1 pics it felt this way and I don’t think TPTB had nothing to do with it or at least they must have had a photographer hired by TPTB who took them and told them to stand and act in a certain way.

The promo pics were done by the studio and/or the network. I think the placement had a lot to do with billing. Joe and Torri came first. And also with height. Notice how later, Jason is always in the back. Joe and Torri fit very nicely together height wise. A photographer is going to be looking at those things. A lot of what shippers see as ship in the show is based on who is close to whom. It's not always intentional. In the commentaries you hear them talk about how they place them for the best camera angles. I've noticed when they were around that conference table that where they were sitting sometimes had to do with who spoke when and whom they talked to. Plus, there is a HUGE disconnect from what the writers see and what we see. It's like when you write a fic and sometimes the readers don't get your point that you thought was obvious. That's why Sparky just seemed to baffle them. LOL

[Southern Red]

Who knows, I mean we know that Kanaan wasn’t just a fling for Teyla since Elizabeth knew about him in GitM + it’s obvious what Teyla’s feeling are for him in ‘Broken Ties’ and you also see that they clearly share a room on Atlantis, my point is the same as you that even if she did have a baby with someone else, they didn’t have to keep it up like that if they wanted to indicate someone else, but who knows.

Plus if Kanaan had been a fling, it would have been completely OOC for Teyla. I never got a hint from her that her people were casual in their relationships. She even said in Sunday, that the man had to make the first move. How traditional is that? So, she would never have just slept with someone for the heck of it, even if she had known him a long time. They seemed like a very structured, morally conservative group, going by their formal rituals and beliefs.

[Scary Kitty]

On the "Elizabeth returns in Season 6" thing: Mallozzi has elaborated several times, both on his blog and at least one interview that was posted shortly after SGA was cancelled, on the idea that the real, original, human Elizabeth Weir (not a clone, not a Replicator duplicate) was still alive and hidden away somewhere by the ascension-aspiring Replicators, and that the rest of Team Atlantis would eventually find her and bring her home. Basically.

As for John/Teyla, that's really kind of off-topic for this thread, so I will only say that TPTW clearly had no understanding of the concept of "show, don't tell."

[Falcon Horus]

Yah, now that I have a job I'm about to be over run with plot bunnies. As it stands I have 2 started that I need to finish, 7 begging me to start them and 2 others that I have ideas on how to expand. There just aren't enough hours in the day!!!

Sleep is overrated, every plotbunny knows that.

It's the first rule in the plotbunny handbook - Plotbunny 101.
Plotbunnies for Dummies also starts with this rule. It's universal.

Wasn't it because Jason Momoa was dead set on leaving after season 5? I guess they would have had to kill him, because it was the only plausible way to explain Ronon leaving the show. There's no way Ronon would want to leave the team,or Atlantis, so death would have probably been the only option. As a Ronon fan, I am glad that season 5 wad the last.

If we'd gotten a season 6 I wouldn't have blamed him at all for doing so. Would you be satisfied with 2 lines per episode, I wouldn't be.

****

For those not getting certain ships - try understanding my straight OTP - Kate/John... They never had any scenes together, as just them together. And yet, I ship them all because of this one moment, one ittybitty moment in Michael where they're arguing in the briefing room over Michael's fate.

[mandogater]

Awww, thanks. It was a labor of love. I love writing John.

You're welcome and your love of writing for John really showed.

[JT-2]

Thanks for all the kind words, everyone. *hugs*

OMG the Chicago con is NEXT WEEK. Crap. I gotta get my pictures printed.

I guess you're right, there is some sense to the pairing. It would've meant his interest in Torren actually made sense - the 'child of two gifted parents' thing seemed silly when he was doing gene manipulation anyway

Yes. The Prodigal had a lot of good things going for it. (Thanks Joe for making sure Teyla killed Michael.) But it made no freaking sense at all that he wanted the baby unless there was ship behind it. No sense. So I conclude he was in love with her. Cause I like logic.

I shudder to think what their Season 6 would've looked like as well. Sure, we might have gotten Elizabeth back permanently, if the plotting Mallozzi has detailed on his blog can be believed, but would it have been as satisfying as what we're planning for Atlantis Rising? I doubt it.

I don't believe for a single moment that there was any real notion of Elizabeth coming back. I think Mallozzi was just being his usual self when he posted that (that's the most PG way I can say it).

I don't think it's all that hard to understand. They were operating under the false assumption that hooking up their star in a permanent relationship would spoil the show. They wanted to keep him free to have casual romances. It's what action heroes do when written by men. LOL With the exception of Babylon Five, I can't think of another show that didn't follow this exact pattern with their lead actor. It was tease, tease, tease and then get them together in the last season. Bones is trying to do it differently and is reaping the wrath of fandom for it. We'll see how Castle turns out. I still have high hopes for them. The X Files tried it and the show ended shortly thereafter. Show business types are not known for their flexibility and the fans don't like change.

They thought it was obvious who John was going to end up with and couldn't understand that a lot of us disagreed. Just look at the huge OMG!What? reaction they had when we shut down GW after the hug with all the Sparky fans online. Yes, it happened. I was a witness. Then Gero came out and told us we were wrong to see any ship...move along now, nothing to see here. Logic, of course, would have made them think about it and decide...hmmm, this many fans want this...hmmm.

One of the problems I have with this PTB. You know how my math girl self likes logic. And they just don't seem to grasp it very well. Or character development. Or creating new plot instead of reusing old plot. I could keep going but I'm bored now.

Oh, now I get why you are confused. I think it was because Teyla was on John's team. Technically, he was her leader. She chose to take orders from him, so that made him her boss in the field and in team matters. It would have been a bit tacky and they would have had to remove her from his team. The IOA would have had a fit. In explaining why they didn't make John the father of her baby, Mallozzi said they thought it wouldn't be right since she was on his team. I think they were planning to wait until they knew the show was ending and have them suddenly look at each other and go "I wuv you." But her real life pregnancy spoiled that plan. The only moral and PG way to go now would be to kill off Kanaan and have most of a season pass before getting them together. Stargate has always been PG, so secret love affairs, and having the hero split up a family would not have been allowed. And yes, I realize they were inconsistent with this considering John's kirking in S2. Trying to get inside the minds of TPTB is kinda scary.

That sums it all up quite nicely.

[TheLadyMore]

On the "Elizabeth returns in Season 6" thing: Mallozzi has elaborated several times, both on his blog and at least one interview that was posted shortly after SGA was cancelled, on the idea that the real, original, human Elizabeth Weir (not a clone, not a Replicator duplicate) was still alive and hidden away somewhere by the ascension-aspiring Replicators, and that the rest of Team Atlantis would eventually find her and bring her home. Basically.

As for John/Teyla, that's really kind of off-topic for this thread, so I will only say that TPTW clearly had no understanding of the concept of "show, don't tell."

Seriously....Seriously....being hidden in Atlantis where it is completely obvious to find her while John is left wangsting that he couldn't save Elizabeth because she is floating somewhere in Space? Adds to my theory the writers are bigger whumpers than Kolya and us combined...btw if they wanted to do that....why couldnt they just do it in SEASON 4.