Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[ShipperWriter]

All I remember is reunion and that scene between John and Carter. That's about it. So yeah you may have been reading too many Fics.

Sadly, I think you're right.

It's interesting, though -- I've been rereading transcripts on the first half of S4 cause it's easier than fast-forwarding through all the eppys -- and John was practically the only one who brought up Elizabeth. He was the one who told Sam he didn't want her job because of how the IOA treated Elizabeth, and a couple other times he turned the conversation and included her. Thank you, JoeF.

I'd go with the golf one, it's easy to argue because if I can play golf, then it can't be a real sport. Mind you, I play very badly, so....

Perhaps she does play golf, and can drive longer than Sheppard? Or plays poker, but only against the men? The marbled steak is actually seal, not grain-fed cattle?

Ugh ... not nice!

Rodney: Katie said she wanted a teddy for her birthday - what do you think of this?

John: Elizabeth......

Elizabeth: I don't she was referring to that type of teddy, lovely as it is though

*shakes head*

gateraid, what ever are we going to do with you?

Elizabeth: Whoa, that one nearly got us

John: Sorry. You distracted me when you put your hand on my back

Perfect!

That would have been a good idea, but sadly, there was only the scene that LCJS mentioned

Yup. Meesa major league disappointed now.

Oh wait ... I think that was a fic I wrote that I never posted ... it's official. The lines between RL and fandom have blurred to an indistinguishable point. I'm moving in here.

Anyhoodle. Gotta get some sleep. Last day with the students tomorrow, then graduation tomorrow night. The work never ends! Night, everybody!

[ShipperWriter]

Okay, I lied. Sue me.

One more icon, then I'm off.



Night!

*zips off*

[Scary Kitty]

Thanks, I'm kinda partial to her myself. I have someone from TV in mind when I write her. I wonder who will figure it out first. But actually, it's probably better if everybody pictures her as they want her to be.

I have my suspicions, but I don't wanna say it outloud, cause then I'll start to drawl and ... yeah.

LOL. Yeah, I've been having that same feeling. And yes, I'm starting to drawl.

Okay, brainfart, need help.

Is there a specific episode during S4 where Carter tells John that they have to put "finding Elizabeth missions" on the backburner and refocus on regular missions? Or have I just read one too many fics???

Sadly, LCJS and gateraid are correct, there was no such scene. Pity, because there really should've been one.

And some of us have gone full circle of late. I've even found myself defending some of TPTW's decisions, and certain characters. The irony of that is that in some cases I agree with some of the opinions, just not the OTT manner in which they're presented.

I'm right there with you, buddy. Some of the "questionable" things that were done actually had some promising potential... it's just that the execution of those ideas sucked harder than a black hole.

Sadly, I think you're right.

It's interesting, though -- I've been rereading transcripts on the first half of S4 cause it's easier than fast-forwarding through all the eppys -- and John was practically the only one who brought up Elizabeth. He was the one who told Sam he didn't want her job because of how the IOA treated Elizabeth, and a couple other times he turned the conversation and included her. Thank you, JoeF.

Amen to that. In JoeF We Trust.

Yup. Meesa major league disappointed now.

Oh wait ... I think that was a fic I wrote that I never posted ... it's official. The lines between RL and fandom have blurred to an indistinguishable point. I'm moving in here.

Wait... you mean you hadn't permanently crossed over to fandom reality yet?

Okay, I lied. Sue me.

One more icon, then I'm off.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/...zabeth-1-2.jpg

Night!

*zips off*

Squee! That's gorgeous!

Anyway, good night, and pleasant Sparky dreams!

[mandogater]

And lease is done! The landlord thinks my mother and I are lovely people *clears throat* so we move in the middle of next month!

Congratulations, SW!! When's the virtual house/apartment warming party?

[gateraid]

Sadly, I think you're right.

It's interesting, though -- I've been rereading transcripts on the first half of S4 cause it's easier than fast-forwarding through all the eppys -- and John was practically the only one who brought up Elizabeth. He was the one who told Sam he didn't want her job because of how the IOA treated Elizabeth, and a couple other times he turned the conversation and included her. Thank you, JoeF.



Ugh ... not nice!

I've never seen in personally, but you know how the Japanese like marbled steak (which is made from growing cattle to about 1.8x their natural size rather quickly)? Seal is apparently even more marbled than that. I assume that is why the sharks and orca find them so tasty

*shakes head*

gateraid, what ever are we going to do with you?

Hey, Rodney is the one who tried to give Katie a teddy bear for her birthday, not me

LOL. Yeah, I've been having that same feeling. And yes, I'm starting to drawl.



Sadly, LCJS and gateraid are correct, there was no such scene. Pity, because there really should've been one.

And the silly thing is that probably only one scene would have sufficed if they'd done it correctly. Had they addressed the issue in Lifeline and had a definitive "there is no way we can even think about going to rescue her" then that likely would have been the end of the matter.

I'm right there with you, buddy. Some of the "questionable" things that were done actually had some promising potential... it's just that the execution of those ideas sucked harder than a black hole.

My thoughts on this are too long, and too OT (and some of which tack on to the above scene), but...... I think the major problems could have been solved with: show bible, seasonal arcs, show bible

[Southern Red]

Okay, brainfart, need help.

Is there a specific episode during S4 where Carter tells John that they have to put "finding Elizabeth missions" on the backburner and refocus on regular missions? Or have I just read one too many fics???

I agree with the others. Sadly, there is only the one little scene.

Sadly, I think you're right.

It's interesting, though -- I've been rereading transcripts on the first half of S4 cause it's easier than fast-forwarding through all the eppys -- and John was practically the only one who brought up Elizabeth. He was the one who told Sam he didn't want her job because of how the IOA treated Elizabeth, and a couple other times he turned the conversation and included her. Thank you, JoeF.

Thanks to Joe indeed. He even said that they were going to just ignore her and he insisted they include something. It just works in our favor that it was John who said something and showed the most grief. And it makes it even more of a glaring error that Rodney didn't. The only other thing I can think of is the moment when Clone!Carson asks about her, but even then they don't do into detail or show him reacting.

Oh wait ... I think that was a fic I wrote that I never posted ... it's official. The lines between RL and fandom have blurred to an indistinguishable point. I'm moving in here.

Anyhoodle. Gotta get some sleep. Last day with the students tomorrow, then graduation tomorrow night. The work never ends! Night, everybody!

I've been at this so long, I blurred those lines years ago. It's hard to remember what was real after so many fics.

Enjoy the last day. Today is Mr. SR's last day at his old job before he starts the new one on Tuesday. He's kind of excited to be doing new stuff.

I've never seen in personally, but you know how the Japanese like marbled steak (which is made from growing cattle to about 1.8x their natural size rather quickly)? Seal is apparently even more marbled than that. I assume that is why the sharks and orca find them so tasty

The taste is in the fat, so that's why marbling is so good. Maybe I'll have CL go on a rant about that at some point. LOL

By the way, it seems some of you think you know who she's based on. Actually, I started seeing her as a combo of a couple of people but she is evolving. I'm working on something that reveals a lot about her, so you may change your minds. We still won't learn her name though.

And the silly thing is that probably only one scene would have sufficed if they'd done it correctly. Had they addressed the issue in Lifeline and had a definitive "there is no way we can even think about going to rescue her" then that likely would have been the end of the matter.

Sorry, but I disagree here. The whole underlying theme of this show was not to leave anyone behind along with John disobeying orders. Now suddenly we had him following orders not to rescue her. Inconsistent and OOC, IMHO.

My thoughts on this are too long, and too OT (and some of which tack on to the above scene), but...... I think the major problems could have been solved with: show bible, seasonal arcs, show bible

Now this part I totally agree with.

[Brie]

Good afternoon everyone, I hope you’re all having a good Friday.

Love your icons SW and I also would have loved to have seen a scene like that.

Thanks to Joe indeed. He even said that they were going to just ignore her and he insisted they include something. It just works in our favor that it was John who said something and showed the most grief. And it makes it even more of a glaring error that Rodney didn't. The only other thing I can think of is the moment when Clone!Carson asks about her, but even then they don't do into detail or show him reacting.

The only time I felt that it did affect Rodney was in TMC in the scene at the end with Radek.

ZELENKA: Oh, Rodney, we've been working for five hours straight. We should take a break.

McKAY: Yeah, I will – when I'm finished.

ZELENKA: I know what you're trying to do.

McKAY: Yeah, what's that?

ZELENKA: Lose yourself in your work to avoid thinking about Elizabeth.

ZELENKA: You must realise it's only a temporary distraction.

McKAY: That's one of the perks of the job. Something terrible happens, you don't have enough time to dwell on it ‘cause you're too busy trying to stop the next terrible thing from happening. Seriously, if it wasn't for the Replicators and their plan to wipe out every human in the galaxy, I'd be in pretty bad shape right now.

McKAY: No, this is Carson all over again and I'm just not ready to deal. Not yet.

ZELENKA: You're not the only one who misses them, Rodney. I don't suppose you want to talk about it.

McKAY: Eventually, but not now.

Something like that. And then there was a few moments in GitM but the guilt he felt in those episodes doesn’t fit with what he felt (or didn’t feel) in the episodes in between.

Sorry, but I disagree here. The whole underlying theme of this show was not to leave anyone behind along with John disobeying orders. Now suddenly we had him following orders not to rescue her. Inconsistent and OOC, IMHO.

That have always been something I’ve reacted to, that the first three seasons catch phrase basically was “We don’t leave people behind in the hands of the enemy” and then they just changed it, and especially without knowing if Elizabeth was really dead or not but especially since they are more than painfully aware of what the replicators can do and will do to others and then just have them leave her there to suffer such a terrible mind torture, and since we know that if it was anyone else, Elizabeth wouldn’t have rested until they got some real answers. Now I do know that Elizabeth wouldn’t have wanted anyone to risk their lives for her it was still pretty out of characters for all of them to not even try.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Pretty Friday!

And the silly thing is that probably only one scene would have sufficed if they'd done it correctly. Had they addressed the issue in Lifeline and had a definitive "there is no way we can even think about going to rescue her" then that likely would have been the end of the matter.

Hmm, I'd have to agree with SR and Brie here, at least in part. After all the times in the first three seasons that we've seen John hammering the belief that "we don't leave our people behind," it seems totally out of character for him to not push harder than his one token protest in Reunion to do something. And after all the times that Elizabeth herself insisted on continuing to search for lost team members, long after most would think sensible, it makes John look even more disingenuous not to try to continue the search for her.

That said, the way he oh-so-quickly believes the lie told by the Replicators to the Clone!Team in TMC that Elizabeth was killed by Oberoth is understandable, in a way. After all those months, the thought that she could still be alive, being tortured both mentally as well as physically... it's horrible for anyone to comprehend, but for someone as close to her as John was? That itself must be torture. Better for his own sanity to believe that she's dead, that her suffering is over. At least, that's my take on the situation.

My thoughts on this are too long, and too OT (and some of which tack on to the above scene), but...... I think the major problems could have been solved with: show bible, seasonal arcs, show bible

I seem to recall Mallozzi saying at some point that they didn't even have a show bible for SGA. Certainly explains a lot, doesn't it?

Thanks to Joe indeed. He even said that they were going to just ignore her and he insisted they include something. It just works in our favor that it was John who said something and showed the most grief. And it makes it even more of a glaring error that Rodney didn't. The only other thing I can think of is the moment when Clone!Carson asks about her, but even then they don't do into detail or show him reacting.

Rodney's chronic lack of remorse and guilt over his own role in Elizabeth's loss has always pissed me off. Sure, we know that Rodney isn't terribly good at expressing his feelings (a trait he shares with John), but still!

By the way, it seems some of you think you know who she's based on. Actually, I started seeing her as a combo of a couple of people but she is evolving. I'm working on something that reveals a lot about her, so you may change your minds. We still won't learn her name though.

Heh! This should be fun to watch!

[Southern Red]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Pretty Friday!



Hmm, I'd have to agree with SR and Brie here, at least in part. After all the times in the first three seasons that we've seen John hammering the belief that "we don't leave our people behind," it seems totally out of character for him to not push harder than his one token protest in Reunion to do something. And after all the times that Elizabeth herself insisted on continuing to search for lost team members, long after most would think sensible, it makes John look even more disingenuous not to try to continue the search for her.

That said, the way he oh-so-quickly believes the lie told by the Replicators to the Clone!Team in TMC that Elizabeth was killed by Oberoth is understandable, in a way. After all those months, the thought that she could still be alive, being tortured both mentally as well as physically... it's horrible for anyone to comprehend, but for someone as close to her as John was? That itself must be torture. Better for his own sanity to believe that she's dead, that her suffering is over. At least, that's my take on the situation.



I seem to recall Mallozzi saying at some point that they didn't even have a show bible for SGA. Certainly explains a lot, doesn't it?



Rodney's chronic lack of remorse and guilt over his own role in Elizabeth's loss has always pissed me off. Sure, we know that Rodney isn't terribly good at expressing his feelings (a trait he shares with John), but still!



Heh! This should be fun to watch!

I think what you said about John believing she's dead is perfectly reasonable. We know that John was feeling a lot of guilt in regards to her. If they hadn't cut the scene from Remnants in which Kolya taunted him about it, it would be canon. But the fact that he even had that conversation with Carter tells me that finding her was a big priority of his in those days right after she was lost. It just seems to crush him when Carter denies his request. After some time passes, he comes to terms with the fact that losing her is easier to handle than thinking about her always being tortured.

Rodney just pissed me off big time. Especially when Carter arrived and he went all googly eyed or even before that when he actually thought he might get the job. The Rodney from TOR would have been saying that nobody could replace her. Ronon was the only one who stayed in character there, though I guess since she was John's CO, we can't expect him to be openly hostile to her.

[ShipperWriter]

Afternoon, Sparkies!

So slight OT rant: my high school's graduation ceremonies are scheduled for tonight, and it's been raining. All. Day. Long. The principal is waiting until the last minute to postpone it, and the other interpreter and I have a ton of work to do tonight during the speeches. My God. We have to fingerspell over 400 names.

I'm gonna need a beer or two when tonight is over.

So until I get that phone call, telling me what's up, I'm hanging out here.

[/rant]

Sadly, LCJS and gateraid are correct, there was no such scene. Pity, because there really should've been one.

Right. Well, I need to go find a fic that I wrote ages ago. And possibly post it.

Amen to that. In JoeF We Trust.

We're gonna have to give in and make that a sig. And freely distribute it.

Wait... you mean you hadn't permanently crossed over to fandom reality yet?

Apparently not. But now I have!

Congratulations, SW!! When's the virtual house/apartment warming party?

The drinking starts after the graduation ceremony tonight. *smirk* As for the party, it's always goin' on here!

As for the "Welcome to Fandom Reality" party, I'm starting it now.

Hey, Rodney is the one who tried to give Katie a teddy bear for her birthday, not me

True. Guess I can't argue that point with you.

My thoughts on this are too long, and too OT (and some of which tack on to the above scene), but...... I think the major problems could have been solved with: show bible, seasonal arcs, show bible

Exactly. I have a fic bible folder, and if I don't consult it, I might as well not write a fic in the first place. You would think that experienced writers who have done this before would have a bit of common sense...

Well, you would think.

Thanks to Joe indeed. He even said that they were going to just ignore her and he insisted they include something. It just works in our favor that it was John who said something and showed the most grief. And it makes it even more of a glaring error that Rodney didn't. The only other thing I can think of is the moment when Clone!Carson asks about her, but even then they don't do into detail or show him reacting.

There were a few miniscule times that Rodney played the "I screwed up, now let me fix this to atone" card, but not nearly enough.

I've been at this so long, I blurred those lines years ago. It's hard to remember what was real after so many fics.

*snorts*

By the way, it seems some of you think you know who she's based on. Actually, I started seeing her as a combo of a couple of people but she is evolving. I'm working on something that reveals a lot about her, so you may change your minds. We still won't learn her name though.

That's cool -- I like the mystery of not knowing her name while she knows everything that's going on in the kitchen at midnight.

Sorry, but I disagree here. The whole underlying theme of this show was not to leave anyone behind along with John disobeying orders. Now suddenly we had him following orders not to rescue her. Inconsistent and OOC, IMHO.

Yeah! I mean, what was John's last line to Elizabeth before they fled?

"Elizabeth!"

... Okay, the other one.

"You're coming with us ... We're not leaving you behind!"

And it killed him to have to do that. Really gotta love the GW transcript for this episode. They nailed it.

Anyhow. John followed Elizabeth's order, mainly because Ronan yanked him down the hallway when the Replicators came back online. I have a feeling that if Ronan hadn't of been there, John might not have made it out either.

So for him to give up so easily after Carter comes? Yeah. Very OOC IMO.

That have always been something I’ve reacted to, that the first three seasons catch phrase basically was “We don’t leave people behind in the hands of the enemy” and then they just changed it, and especially without knowing if Elizabeth was really dead or not but especially since they are more than painfully aware of what the replicators can do and will do to others and then just have them leave her there to suffer such a terrible mind torture, and since we know that if it was anyone else, Elizabeth wouldn’t have rested until they got some real answers. Now I do know that Elizabeth wouldn’t have wanted anyone to risk their lives for her it was still pretty out of characters for all of them to not even try.

Bingo.

Hmm, I'd have to agree with SR and Brie here, at least in part. After all the times in the first three seasons that we've seen John hammering the belief that "we don't leave our people behind," it seems totally out of character for him to not push harder than his one token protest in Reunion to do something. And after all the times that Elizabeth herself insisted on continuing to search for lost team members, long after most would think sensible, it makes John look even more disingenuous not to try to continue the search for her.

That said, the way he oh-so-quickly believes the lie told by the Replicators to the Clone!Team in TMC that Elizabeth was killed by Oberoth is understandable, in a way. After all those months, the thought that she could still be alive, being tortured both mentally as well as physically... it's horrible for anyone to comprehend, but for someone as close to her as John was? That itself must be torture. Better for his own sanity to believe that she's dead, that her suffering is over. At least, that's my take on the situation.

I agree. It's comparable to when a loved one is very sick and close to death. You don't want them to die, but at the same time, you don't want them to suffer anymore. Sometimes you need to closure of death just so you know they're not suffering anymore.

If I was in John's shoes, I think I would've reacted the same way. Especially when the Repli!Elizabeth is repeating it and reaffirming what she believes. God, talk about a mind game ...

I seem to recall Mallozzi saying at some point that they didn't even have a show bible for SGA. Certainly explains a lot, doesn't it?

*headdesk*

Rodney's chronic lack of remorse and guilt over his own role in Elizabeth's loss has always pissed me off. Sure, we know that Rodney isn't terribly good at expressing his feelings (a trait he shares with John), but still!

I don't know why, but part of me would love to see John beat up Rodney over that. I have no idea where that came from.

I think what you said about John believing she's dead is perfectly reasonable. We know that John was feeling a lot of guilt in regards to her. If they hadn't cut the scene from Remnants in which Kolya taunted him about it, it would be canon. But the fact that he even had that conversation with Carter tells me that finding her was a big priority of his in those days right after she was lost. It just seems to crush him when Carter denies his request. After some time passes, he comes to terms with the fact that losing her is easier to handle than thinking about her always being tortured.

Rodney just pissed me off big time. Especially when Carter arrived and he went all googly eyed or even before that when he actually thought he might get the job. The Rodney from TOR would have been saying that nobody could replace her. Ronon was the only one who stayed in character there, though I guess since she was John's CO, we can't expect him to be openly hostile to her.

Rodney thinking he was getting the job royally pissed me off. "I wrote your biography when I thought I was going to die because you're so wonderful and no one knows" changed into "Oh, sorry you're gone, let me mourn for a micro-second and then take over"? That was horrible.

[gateraid]

The "we don't leave people behind" thing is rather problematic for them. The time to have the conversation would have been at the end of Lifeline. Carter (or better yet, Landry, even if it were only her relaying the message) could have poo-pooed the idea then. Leaving it a few weeks makes it seem like Sheppard was only going through the motions. He had all that time before Carter took command - why didn't he do something then? Why did he listen to the IOA?? That seemed incredibly OOC to me, especially when he argued so vehemently for a rescue in Rising. It didn't help that the Reunion scene was a poor imitation of that Rising scene either.

All of that could have been helped by altering the timeline somewhat. Had it been hours (or even days) until then next episode it wouldn't have made it seem like "oh yeah, I was gonna rescue Weir but I haven't gotten around to it yet". If they didn't want Carter to be the one to rule out a rescue, they could have had Landry do it and still had Carter smelling of rainbows

[ShipperWriter]

So the principal just called. Graduation is postponed until tomorrow evening.

Which means:



And, just to torture myself, I rewatched the ending of "Lifeline" about four times. JoeF's voice cracks.

[ShipperWriter]

The "we don't leave people behind" thing is rather problematic for them. The time to have the conversation would have been at the end of Lifeline. Carter (or better yet, Landry, even if it were only her relaying the message) could have poo-pooed the idea then. Leaving it a few weeks makes it seem like Sheppard was only going through the motions. He had all that time before Carter took command - why didn't he do something then? Why did he listen to the IOA?? That seemed incredibly OOC to me, especially when he argued so vehemently for a rescue in Rising. It didn't help that the Reunion scene was a poor imitation of that Rising scene either.

All of that could have been helped by altering the timeline somewhat. Had it been hours (or even days) until then next episode it wouldn't have made it seem like "oh yeah, I was gonna rescue Weir but I haven't gotten around to it yet". If they didn't want Carter to be the one to rule out a rescue, they could have had Landry do it and still had Carter smelling of rainbows

I've never heard the convos in "Rising" and "Reunion" compared before, but they are similar, good point. Except that in "Rising", John was this immature, reckless major who was suddenly the ranking military officer and tried pulling it over Elizabeth's authority. In "Reunion", he had grown. Granted, I'm head-scratching at the "why did he listen to the IOA" point too ...

Although I imagine, in those couple of weeks when John was technically in command of Atlantis, the IOA probably had him jumping through hoops with city management stuff and barely let him breathe. He could've also waited for Carter to come and take command because, if she approved a rescue mission, she would've been the one the IOA blamed for whatever could've gone wrong.

[ShipperWriter]

On a happy sidenote: I ordered "Casualties of War". Should be here in a week!

[Falcon Horus]

I want to write... but can't... but really want to... but can't...