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    Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
    See, it's been a while since I've seen the eps... and another point I forgot: The writer says that the tracker is located in the lower back. Now I know that's wrong
    I've leaved through it and saw Woolsey's name pop up, so I guess it's set during S5.
    Well, crap. I guess I'll just be reading that one in the bookstore and then putting it back on the shelf. No extra money for you, Fandemonium!
    (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
    Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Lythisrose View Post
      I hesitate a bit to bring this up here, as I know the Thread isn't a big fan of Jo Graham, but she posted a bit about John's character development today, so it kind of fits the discussion.
      http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/68466.html
      the last poem that she says is an epigram for avengers; I just looked up the whole thing; its called To His Coy Mistress; Im hoping the context of the poem has nothing to do with the actual story/chapter. She mentioned it having to do with a Sam chapter, i hope its not Sam encouraging John to go to his coy mistress and make sure he lives life before it passes him by.


      Add: Here's the link to the poem in case anyone is interested in the whole thing. http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/marvell/coy.htm
      Last edited by VampyreWraith; 12 July 2010, 10:17 PM.
      sigpic

      Comment


        Hi Sparkies!
        After being totally p#ssed by how season 5 of Bones ended (I watched it only in these last days), I was surfing searching for reasons why my favourite pairings are ALWAYS star-crossed and I read about "The Moonlighting Curse" (referring to a show with B.Willis and C.Shepherd, which went down in ratings after the characters were TOGETHER and never recovered).
        Do you believe that this is the reason why Elizabeth and John (or another main character and John) never ended up together? Are writers so superstitious or are they simply unable to write relationships? I'm puzzled ... and still p#ssed.

        Comment


          Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
          Its a hot button for me too, and no amount of poetic delving into John's "tortured" soul is going to help me accept a set of circumstances that lead to John deciding that his friend and teammate is the woman for him and that said teammate has been living a lie for the past year and that John is the only one for her, or that they should all get together and be one happy family. IMO John is the way he is at the end of the series because he is kinda burdened by the losses of his friends especially Elizabeth and then Ford, and any others he may of lost in 5 yrs. He and Elizabeth shared the burden of command of Atlantis for 3 yrs; they went through a lot together; lost friends together. She wasn't a soldier or warrior, she was a diplomat and peacemaker; it was his responsibility to protect her and he failed; and she was lost to him and Atlantis. In season 4 and 5 I believe we get a darker John because of this. He doesnt want to fail any of his friends again like he did Elizabeth; and he'll go to further extremes than before in order to protect the people he loves and the things that are important to him. The burden of command is what it wearing at him if anything, not the fact that he doesnt have a woman by his side. Since Elizabeth's departure he hasnt really had enough time to learn to fully share that burden again with her replacements. It seems to take him a while to trust people fully, and neither Sam or Woolsey were with him as long as Elizabeth, or gone through as much with him. I know he has his team but he is also responsible for their safety and his command decisions could lead to their deaths, and he knows that; so he keeps his distance a bit. I think that is normal for someone in his position. And maybe he does need to open up more to his friends in order to be more emotionally healthy, but it doesnt have to lead to a romance that could potentially make things worse for him. He has his friends and his family and a home he loves; for some people that can be enough. I don't buy the bs that someone is trying to sell that John getting a certain woman is the only way he can be healthy and whole. Especially when the way i see it it would be a bad thing for both characters, and I'm not someone who adheres to a strict white christian upper middle class philosophy, or what not.
          If you're talking about another galaxy, any philosophy applies. You can make them have any sort of morals you want to and that's what the new book authors are going with. They have an end result they want and they are manipulating sociology to achieve their goals. Plain and simple. Canon be damned.

          Originally posted by Irish Eyes View Post
          Four! I want in on this action! LOL

          Thanks for the great reports Kris!
          Woot! Mr. SR will probably come so that makes 5. Party in Baltimore! Can we have two Sparky summers in a row?
          sigpic

          Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Anuna View Post
            Well I myself have well suited lyrics about John - and mind you, pre season 4 John, the one who just found his home.

            Anyone knows "Learning to fly" by Pink Floyd? The inspiration was actual flying lesson for one of band members, but the song gives us more - it's about changed perspectives on life, about finding freedom.

            Spoiler:
            Into the distance, a ribbon of black
            stretched to the point of no turning back
            a flight of fancy on a wind swept field
            standing alone my sense reeled
            a fatal attraction holding me fast, how
            can I escape this irresistable grasp?
            can't keep my eyes from the circling sky
            tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I
            ice is forming on the tips of my wings
            unheeded warnings, I tought I thought of everything
            no navigator to guide my way home
            unladened, empty and turned to stone

            a soul in tension that's learning to fly
            condition grounded but determined to try
            can't keep my eyes from the -circling- skies
            tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I

            above the planet on a wing and a prayer
            my grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air
            across the clouds I see my shadow fly
            out of the corner of my watering eye
            a dream unthreatened by the morning light
            gould blow this soul right through the roof of the night

            there's no sensation to compare with this
            suspended animation, a state of bliss
            can't keep my mind from the circling sky
            tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I


            I particularly like that line about 'no navigator, to guide my way home', and then later, 'a dream unthreatened by morning light'

            As for John being the candle that burns on both ends - he definitely had that in himself, especially during season 1, but his responsibilities and Elizabeth's influence balanced him greatly. After she was gone, his light was mostly gone too.
            That reminds me of Yeats' "An Irish Airman Foresees His Death".

            Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
            Yeah, the dumbing down of John is one of my pet peeves also.

            See, I don't see John as burning the candle at both ends. He's military. He has done what needs to be done to keep us safe. His job as a member of the military was to kill people and break things. His specific job as a helicopter pilot was to rescue people who had been out killing people and breaking things. It wasn't personal so there was no burning of the candle.

            If she's talking about his personal life, well I don't see it there either. There is a lot of divorce in just the same situation as John's, nothing unusual nothing particularly traumatic that I can see. I don't see him as being immoral or dishonest or living a dangerous lifestyle. So how can he be burning the candle at either end, the middle or both ends?

            She has no understanding of the John Sheppard I saw on my TV at all. Yes, he has abandonment issues. Yes, he keeps himself apart from people probably to prevent being abandoned. Yes, he may have a savior complex. But in Atlantis he found a family of sorts and it wasn't until that family began to be in danger and fall apart that his personality changed. And if she is going to attempt to say it had nothing to do with Elizabeth, she doesn't know what she is talking about. I don't think he is in any danger of burning out as long as he has a mission and people to save.
            ITA. John wasn't severely damaged. Everyone has personal issues and like all humans, John hid some of his, so perhaps you can say that he covered up some of his feelings. But there's nothing on the screen to show that he was walking around with a pretense of joviality while 'dying inside' or something. We never saw scenes at the end of a story where his smile disappears. I think he was genuinely happy in the moments where you see him happy. In truth, I think he's a pretty honest character, just doesn't have the ability to express how much he cares very well. That's the one part he covers up with more humor than necessary.

            What Atlantis did for him, IMO, was give him a place to fit in, when he had believed he'd never truly fit anywhere. He was accepting of that by the time he is recruited to Atlantis and sort of made peace that he'd be alone and never really have his own 'family'. Atlantis, of course, gives him a mission and a family in one. It takes him a while to recognize that they're as invested in him as he is in them (Epiphany) but eventually he realizes that they reciprocate his feelings (Sateda, Common Ground).

            When he loses Elizabeth and Carson, that family he's found was shattered. I do think John's greatest vice is that he has something of a hero's complex in that he thinks he can protect the world--not in an egoistic way, but because he values the lives of others and would do anything (as he says in Sateda) to keep them safe. I think that is tied up in how much he's lost already (his mother, his family, his wife, his pilot friend) that he just doesn't want to lose anymore. The more he loses, the more he feels guilt over it, and the closer he is to people, the deeper the guilt and the sense of loss.

            I think Atlantis was his 'second chance', so to speak, and the place where he finally found a home. For someone who had already considered himself 'alone', to be given an opportunity at a new life with a family who cared about him wholeheartedly had to be a blessing he'd never expected. But on the flip side, to lose something that precious is going to cause a world more hurt than anything he went through before. Deeper guilt, deeper sadness and much deeper regret.

            As to the 'rampaging' John, I think SR sums it up perfectly--his motivations may be the loss of his people, but the twist in the dark side of John goes into what he was trained to do as a military man in special ops. As he grows a little darker in S5, I think that tends toward that deeper sense of hurt he feels over the shattering of his Atlantis family and so that cutthroat military specialist tends to come out more--plus, he doesn't have Elizabeth to temper those feelings--though, in episodes like Inquisition and Reunion, you can see he tries to be more diplomatic about things.
            Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!

            Comment


              Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post
              Hi Sparkies!
              After being totally p#ssed by how season 5 of Bones ended (I watched it only in these last days), I was surfing searching for reasons why my favourite pairings are ALWAYS star-crossed and I read about "The Moonlighting Curse" (referring to a show with B.Willis and C.Shepherd, which went down in ratings after the characters were TOGETHER and never recovered).
              Do you believe that this is the reason why Elizabeth and John (or another main character and John) never ended up together? Are writers so superstitious or are they simply unable to write relationships? I'm puzzled ... and still p#ssed.
              Ah yes, jumping the shark... The problem with Moonlighting is that the actors barely had any chemistry on-screen. Off-screen they weren't the best of friends either. So for the character to suddenly come together and declare their undying love for each other really did come out of nowhere. And that is the main reason (I think) the ratings plummeted.
              The same happened to Lois & Clark, but that had nothing to do with chemistry, but with the writing. There was plenty of chemistry between Lois and Clark, so the casting had done his job, but when they got together, and got engaged, the writers wanted the marriage to happen around the same time the marriage in the comics happened, but that was almost a year away, so they stalled it; bringing in frog-eating clones, dead bad guys and memory-loss. The viewers got frustrated with that and stopped watching. I was on the verge to stop watching too as I was getting sick and tired off all the stalling, but I'm stubborn, so kept on watching. But the ratings plummeted and the show got canceled.
              So now with these two shows as example, writers and producers think: crap, if we get him and her together, our ratings will plummet and the show will get canceled.
              It doesn't help either if the fans say that they'll stop watching the show when certain characters get together. For example: a lot of Sheyla's said they would stop watching if John and Elizabeth would get together and a lot of Sparkies said they would stop watching if John and Teyla got together. A more recent example is NCIS: Tony and Ziva have, if you ask me, great chemistry and I wouldn't mind them getting together, but there really are fans that say that they'll stop watching the show if that happens. It sucks, obviously, as tptb hear that too and that makes them think twice about getting characters together.
              I haven't seen that Bones ep yet, but I heard what happened and it would piss me off too. I mean, how long can you keep two characters with that amount of amazing chemistry apart? In real life, they prolly would have already been married with a kid on the way. And this stalling will chase viewers away too. Now if they got together in a believable way and if that relationship wouldn't dominate the show, I really don't think they would loose that many viewers.
              But I wonder how many tptw can write a believable way to turn UST into RST...

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                Whoa. Busy busy busy in here.

                Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                Okay, I have something Stargate-y. I'm putting together that continuity timeline and I'd love some different opinions on what you saw happen to various characters in the story.

                So write out your thoughts on character shifts/personality changes/major character developments for any of these guys: Elizabeth, John, McKay, Teyla and Ronon. And then tell me where those shifts happened. I'll add your stuff to my list if I haven't already listed it.

                I'm particularly interested in Rodney, because as I went through 4 and 5 I found that he was pretty much a stagnant character and there was very, VERY little that he did, despite having a lot of screen time. I mean, even the Shrine was basically rehashing what we went through with Tao of Rodney, other than the McKeller stuff. Anything you can think of development-wise?
                I'll leave that to the deep thinkers

                Originally posted by Fionnait View Post
                I've thought about Elizabeth's character development and am really disappointed now... I'd never properly thought about it, but she is very much the same person in the end, as she was when she was first introduced. Except maybe for being more ready to use military means in the end. Although, think of First Strike, maybe not. So, apart from developing a bit more confidence, everything that's happened to them in Pegasus does not seem to have much of an impression on her. Fail.
                That's one thing that doesn't resonate that well with me - she didn't argue that the action wasn't necessary, more that it was "an ineffectual first strike" and could make matters worse. The negotiation idea seemed to be more about stalling them (until the weapons were done) than anything else. And the way it played out, in effect, was more like Sam disagreeing with Jack, but still carrying out the order/mission. So much so that when she is talking to Oberoth on the tv it sounds like it was her idea to bomb Asuras.

                Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                I hadn't thought much about it but I think you're right about Rodney. He just never seemed to change unless you count getting mushy over Keller. He would take a step forward and get sensitive or be nice to his friends like in TOR when he healed Ronon's scars and had the tea ceremony for Teyla (another sign of a very well-ordered society BTW) and then he'd turn right around and snark at Zelenka and make fun of Ronon.

                John's big change started at the end of FS before the accident when he had the big split with Elizabeth. He was very hurt by her being in total disagreement and I think if he'd had time he would have thought about how totally in agreement they had been for ages and how she surprised him by not taking his side. Then of course with what happened to her his whole world totally fell apart and he was never the same again.

                Teyla changed when she became a mom and before that when she was so desperate to get her people back. Even though she had been fighting with the team all those years to help keep her people safe she hadn't had much personal angst until Kanaan went missing and she thought about raising her child alone. She may have had the first little change in the way she thought with the events in Sateda also. Once John convinced her that she and Ronon were family she may have started to relax a little. Then the big mess with Michael in S4 and after just made her feel like she must never let her guard down again. She became first a little harder and then softer with the baby but then when he was in danger the fierce mama bear came out.

                Ronon went through stages when he was smart and thought things through a little but then like in DV they always reverted him to caveman. It was frustrating. I guess you could say between Sunday when he said he wasn't ready to date again and the end when he was interested in first Keller and then Banks may show his emotional wounds were healing but they didn't do a good job of showing how he changed. He learned to trust people, first John and the rest of the team and then Elizabeth whom he seemed to have a great deal of affection for.

                Elizabeth started out mistrusting the military and grew to rely on John to help her run the city. She also seemed to value Jack's opinion and worked well with Lorne but I think in all cases it was more personal than a change of heart in general. She still didn't trust Caldwell and the other military guys. Otherwise I don't see any big changes because she had her head on straight to start with and was pretty consistent.
                Spot on with that, especially the Teyla bit.

                Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                So true. He was fighting her at first and going off on tangents doing his own thing and then he learned that she was not his enemy and wouldn't treat him like an underling so he began to trust her. And she learned he wouldn't act like she expected the typical military guy to act and look down on her because she was a woman or disobey her just because he felt like it. She learned to trust him. The conversation at the end of HZ has some of this:

                Spoiler:
                LATER. ELIZABETH'S OFFICE. Elizabeth and John are in there.

                WEIR: Are you OK?

                SHEPPARD: Yeah, just a little nuke -- nothin', really.

                WEIR: The naqahdah generator plan was very clever. Good work.

                SHEPPARD: Thank you. Now, I'm going to bed. (He stands up to leave.)

                WEIR: We need to discuss what happened earlier.

                SHEPPARD (turning round wearily): Now?

                WEIR: That can never happen again.

                (John looks at her for a moment, then comes back to the desk and sits down.)

                SHEPPARD: Look, I'm sorry about ...

                WEIR (interrupting): I understand your expertise in military matters and I agree that I should defer to those expertise in such situations.

                SHEPPARD: Thank you!

                WEIR: But you are not the one who decides what is and what is not a military situation. Now, both General O'Neill and Colonel Sumner warned me that you don't respect the proper chain of command.

                SHEPPARD: Well, sometimes I see a situation a little different than ...

                WEIR: No. Listen to me, John. Now, you endangered yourself and the lives of many others.

                SHEPPARD: Because I thought it was the best course of action to take -- and, by the way, I saved your ass.

                WEIR: I know you did -- but you have to trust me.

                SHEPPARD: I do!

                WEIR: Do you?

                (Rodney and Carson come in.)


                *shakes fist at Rodney and Carson* I wish we could have revisited that. Good writers would have done the same thing they did with the trust issues between John and Rodney after Trinity and had them make a few more comments about how he had learned to trust her and vice versa. Fail.

                And I noticed that her biggest objection to what he did seems to be that he endangered not only others but himself. And the first thing he thought of to say back was that he saved her ass. I doubt the writers intended to explain that the whole course of action that both of them took was to preserve the life of the other but that's exactly what they did.
                I always found that convo to be a bit of a copout. They couldn't really finish it because the writers would've had to explain what the difference was between military and civilian in that type of situation, and what was the motivation for both of their decisions. Even if Weir had said "we'll talk about this more later" before letting Carson and Rodney talk would've made sense, even it it had been an off-screen convo.

                Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
                I always hated when they turned Ronon into the dumb caveman, especially when it was done in order to make another character look good. They did the same thing to John sometimes. First Contact and TLT are the worst episodes for both John and Ronon in terms of making them look dumb.

                I actually developed an intense hate for Ronon's stupidity following those episodes, and i usually really liked Ronon. And the whole John lusting/pining over Larrin in the middle of a crisis was beyond aggravating.
                TLT made Ronon seem like a complete MORON. Are we really to believe that Ronon would actually be stupid enough to do that sort of damage to the Deadalus systems? What would've happened if he'd hit the life support as well? They were adrift in space, with most of their systems damaged. For that matter, what if more wraith turned up?
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                  Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                  That reminds me of Yeats' "An Irish Airman Foresees His Death".



                  ITA. John wasn't severely damaged. Everyone has personal issues and like all humans, John hid some of his, so perhaps you can say that he covered up some of his feelings. But there's nothing on the screen to show that he was walking around with a pretense of joviality while 'dying inside' or something. We never saw scenes at the end of a story where his smile disappears. I think he was genuinely happy in the moments where you see him happy. In truth, I think he's a pretty honest character, just doesn't have the ability to express how much he cares very well. That's the one part he covers up with more humor than necessary.

                  What Atlantis did for him, IMO, was give him a place to fit in, when he had believed he'd never truly fit anywhere. He was accepting of that by the time he is recruited to Atlantis and sort of made peace that he'd be alone and never really have his own 'family'. Atlantis, of course, gives him a mission and a family in one. It takes him a while to recognize that they're as invested in him as he is in them (Epiphany) but eventually he realizes that they reciprocate his feelings (Sateda, Common Ground).

                  When he loses Elizabeth and Carson, that family he's found was shattered. I do think John's greatest vice is that he has something of a hero's complex in that he thinks he can protect the world--not in an egoistic way, but because he values the lives of others and would do anything (as he says in Sateda) to keep them safe. I think that is tied up in how much he's lost already (his mother, his family, his wife, his pilot friend) that he just doesn't want to lose anymore. The more he loses, the more he feels guilt over it, and the closer he is to people, the deeper the guilt and the sense of loss.

                  I think Atlantis was his 'second chance', so to speak, and the place where he finally found a home. For someone who had already considered himself 'alone', to be given an opportunity at a new life with a family who cared about him wholeheartedly had to be a blessing he'd never expected. But on the flip side, to lose something that precious is going to cause a world more hurt than anything he went through before. Deeper guilt, deeper sadness and much deeper regret.

                  As to the 'rampaging' John, I think SR sums it up perfectly--his motivations may be the loss of his people, but the twist in the dark side of John goes into what he was trained to do as a military man in special ops. As he grows a little darker in S5, I think that tends toward that deeper sense of hurt he feels over the shattering of his Atlantis family and so that cutthroat military specialist tends to come out more--plus, he doesn't have Elizabeth to temper those feelings--though, in episodes like Inquisition and Reunion, you can see he tries to be more diplomatic about things.
                  Joe Flanigan agrees with you. See the second interview section.


                  Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post
                  Hi Sparkies!
                  After being totally p#ssed by how season 5 of Bones ended (I watched it only in these last days), I was surfing searching for reasons why my favourite pairings are ALWAYS star-crossed and I read about "The Moonlighting Curse" (referring to a show with B.Willis and C.Shepherd, which went down in ratings after the characters were TOGETHER and never recovered).
                  Do you believe that this is the reason why Elizabeth and John (or another main character and John) never ended up together? Are writers so superstitious or are they simply unable to write relationships? I'm puzzled ... and still p#ssed.
                  I'm not so upset that Bones is always starcrossed but that they made them
                  Spoiler:
                  having almost had a relationship before and all this time they've been ignoring or trying to ignore that first attraction. Please.
                  The Moonlighting curse has been talked about a lot including by JF in an interview. It's a pretty common belief in show biz. But I think they're wrong. A good writer could take a couple, build up the relationship and write them as still attracted when together. Hart to Hart comes to mind. Also McMillan and Wife. I think this is part of why Sheyla never happened but has nothing to do with Sparky because they insisted that didn't exist. The whole thing to me was a case of telling not showing. They kept saying they were developing Sheyla but Sparky was on the screen and a lot of fans saw that instead. Everyone ended up being confused including the actors which is why you hear about them having to discuss how to play scenes. They got no direction on how they actually felt about each other.

                  Am I the only one who thought Bruce and Sybil had great chemistry? But I was young then. LOL
                  sigpic

                  Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

                  Comment


                    Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Smutty Tuesday!

                    Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
                    the last poem that she says is an epigram for avengers; I just looked up the whole thing; its called To His Coy Mistress; Im hoping the context of the poem has nothing to do with the actual story/chapter. She mentioned it having to do with a Sam chapter, i hope its not Sam encouraging John to go to his coy mistress and make sure he lives life before it passes him by.


                    Add: Here's the link to the poem in case anyone is interested in the whole thing. http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/marvell/coy.htm
                    *snorts*

                    Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post
                    Hi Sparkies!
                    After being totally p#ssed by how season 5 of Bones ended (I watched it only in these last days), I was surfing searching for reasons why my favourite pairings are ALWAYS star-crossed and I read about "The Moonlighting Curse" (referring to a show with B.Willis and C.Shepherd, which went down in ratings after the characters were TOGETHER and never recovered).
                    Do you believe that this is the reason why Elizabeth and John (or another main character and John) never ended up together? Are writers so superstitious or are they simply unable to write relationships? I'm puzzled ... and still p#ssed.
                    I'd say it's more a case of they can't write relationships... just look at the mess they made of Rodney/Katie and Rodney/Jennifer.

                    Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                    Woot! Mr. SR will probably come so that makes 5. Party in Baltimore! Can we have two Sparky summers in a row?
                    If we say we can have two Sparky summers in a row, then we can!

                    Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                    Joe Flanigan agrees with you. See the second interview section.
                    Heh! I was just thinking the same thing.

                    Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                    I'm not so upset that Bones is always starcrossed but that they made them
                    Spoiler:
                    having almost had a relationship before and all this time they've been ignoring or trying to ignore that first attraction. Please.
                    The Moonlighting curse has been talked about a lot including by JF in an interview. It's a pretty common belief in show biz. But I think they're wrong. A good writer could take a couple, build up the relationship and write them as still attracted when together. Hart to Hart comes to mind. Also McMillan and Wife. I think this is part of why Sheyla never happened but has nothing to do with Sparky because they insisted that didn't exist. The whole thing to me was a case of telling not showing. They kept saying they were developing Sheyla but Sparky was on the screen and a lot of fans saw that instead. Everyone ended up being confused including the actors which is why you hear about them having to discuss how to play scenes. They got no direction on how they actually felt about each other.

                    Am I the only one who thought Bruce and Sybil had great chemistry? But I was young then. LOL
                    Bingo. I wasn't into the fandom during the first couple of seasons, so I never even heard about those statements of 'we're gonna do John/Teyla' until well after the fact. All I knew was what I saw on screen, and what I saw on screen was John/Elizabeth. Show, don't tell, indeed.

                    Oh, and I thought Bruce and Cybil had great chemistry too. So I guess what we were discussing earlier on what Torri said about her and Joe debating politics off screen and all helping their on screen chemistry was right on the money.
                    (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                    Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                      Joe Flanigan agrees with you. See the second interview section.

                      I'm not so upset that Bones is always starcrossed but that they made them
                      Spoiler:
                      having almost had a relationship before and all this time they've been ignoring or trying to ignore that first attraction. Please.
                      The Moonlighting curse has been talked about a lot including by JF in an interview. It's a pretty common belief in show biz. But I think they're wrong. A good writer could take a couple, build up the relationship and write them as still attracted when together. Hart to Hart comes to mind. Also McMillan and Wife. I think this is part of why Sheyla never happened but has nothing to do with Sparky because they insisted that didn't exist. The whole thing to me was a case of telling not showing. They kept saying they were developing Sheyla but Sparky was on the screen and a lot of fans saw that instead. Everyone ended up being confused including the actors which is why you hear about them having to discuss how to play scenes. They got no direction on how they actually felt about each other.

                      Am I the only one who thought Bruce and Sybil had great chemistry? But I was young then. LOL
                      I haven't gotten to watch Joe's interviews with Martin yet. Perhaps I'll do that at lunch while simultaneously working on my continuity timeline.

                      Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                      Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Smutty Tuesday!

                      *snorts*

                      I'd say it's more a case of they can't write relationships... just look at the mess they made of Rodney/Katie and Rodney/Jennifer.

                      If we say we can have two Sparky summers in a row, then we can!

                      Heh! I was just thinking the same thing.

                      Bingo. I wasn't into the fandom during the first couple of seasons, so I never even heard about those statements of 'we're gonna do John/Teyla' until well after the fact. All I knew was what I saw on screen, and what I saw on screen was John/Elizabeth. Show, don't tell, indeed.

                      Oh, and I thought Bruce and Cybil had great chemistry too. So I guess what we were discussing earlier on what Torri said about her and Joe debating politics off screen and all helping their on screen chemistry was right on the money.
                      I don't know about Moonlighting; I was too young to understand chemistry at that point. But I do agree with SR; I don't think people know how to write simmering UST and then evolve it into something progressive. They sort of treat it like once two characters say "I love you" (or do the deed) that it's happy-land for everyone until all of a sudden they realize they have serious issues, like they're attracted to other people or an old love interest comes back or something stupid. I'd love to see a show that puts two characters together then deals with the stuff that goes with building a relationship. Like, let's say it had been Sparky--what are the issues that could have been brought up?

                      1) How does a personal relationship affect their professional one? That would take at least half a season to hammer out
                      2) How does their being more intimate change the dynamic of the teams? Not only on awkwardness during, say, conferences, but also stuff like--does Ronon's perception of protecting John change if he knows John has a shot of happiness? Do they take less risks? Jokes about other women now off the table?
                      3) What happens when one is used against the other (like in Common Ground)
                      4) What happens when their viewpoints fundamentally differ on a course of action--how does that affect the personal relationship?
                      5) Do other base personnel see the relationship as needing to change the way they speak to the bosses?
                      6) Do people get mad at Elizabeth because they see favoritism (whether or not it is there)?

                      And other things like how does the characters' personalities shift because of the relationships. What do other people notice?

                      And if you do it right, it doesn't dominate the show--it's a sidebar story.

                      I think Castle can show how it's done right if their writers stay smart. *crosses fingers*
                      Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!

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                        Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                        I think Castle can show how it's done right if their writers stay smart. *crosses fingers*
                        Oh man, I really hope the Castle writers aren't afraid to be 'jumping the shark' when they want to take it further between Castle and Beckett. *crosses fingers too*

                        Sig by me

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                          I don't know about Moonlighting; I was too young to understand chemistry at that point. But I do agree with SR; I don't think people know how to write simmering UST and then evolve it into something progressive. They sort of treat it like once two characters say "I love you" (or do the deed) that it's happy-land for everyone until all of a sudden they realize they have serious issues, like they're attracted to other people or an old love interest comes back or something stupid. I'd love to see a show that puts two characters together then deals with the stuff that goes with building a relationship. Like, let's say it had been Sparky--what are the issues that could have been brought up?

                          1) How does a personal relationship affect their professional one? That would take at least half a season to hammer out
                          2) How does their being more intimate change the dynamic of the teams? Not only on awkwardness during, say, conferences, but also stuff like--does Ronon's perception of protecting John change if he knows John has a shot of happiness? Do they take less risks? Jokes about other women now off the table?
                          3) What happens when one is used against the other (like in Common Ground)
                          4) What happens when their viewpoints fundamentally differ on a course of action--how does that affect the personal relationship?
                          5) Do other base personnel see the relationship as needing to change the way they speak to the bosses?
                          6) Do people get mad at Elizabeth because they see favoritism (whether or not it is there)?

                          And other things like how does the characters' personalities shift because of the relationships. What do other people notice?

                          And if you do it right, it doesn't dominate the show--it's a sidebar story.
                          In a sense, 3, 4 and 5 (and maybe even 6) have been touched on in the show, albeit in the context of a friendship with UST that perhaps the writers didn't intend, but the fans and perhaps the actors saw it and ran with it. So we've already started to see a little of how things might have gone.

                          Certainly, the points you've outlined here are the things that we'll need to explore as we move forward with Atlantis Rising. Even by the end of Season 6, we should start touching on some of them in a pre-ship context. But then, I always liked foreshadowing.

                          Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                          I think Castle can show how it's done right if their writers stay smart. *crosses fingers*
                          I really need to watch that show, don't I?
                          (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                          Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                          Comment


                            Whoa, we've got 15 people on the thread right now! Sparky sure is popular!

                            Hiya to the 10 guests and 1 lurking member! *waves*
                            (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                            Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                            Comment


                              Heee, I'm the lurking member.

                              I have some chores to run, but then I'll be back to join this absolutely yummy discussion.
                              I'm not weird, I'm limited edition.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Anuna View Post
                                Heee, I'm the lurking member.

                                I have some chores to run, but then I'll be back to join this absolutely yummy discussion.
                                *glomps Anuna* I had a feeling it was you!

                                Hmm, speaking of doing other things, I should probably go have breakfast...
                                (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                                Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                                Comment

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