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Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

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    Well I myself have well suited lyrics about John - and mind you, pre season 4 John, the one who just found his home.

    Anyone knows "Learning to fly" by Pink Floyd? The inspiration was actual flying lesson for one of band members, but the song gives us more - it's about changed perspectives on life, about finding freedom.

    Spoiler:
    Into the distance, a ribbon of black
    stretched to the point of no turning back
    a flight of fancy on a wind swept field
    standing alone my sense reeled
    a fatal attraction holding me fast, how
    can I escape this irresistable grasp?
    can't keep my eyes from the circling sky
    tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I
    ice is forming on the tips of my wings
    unheeded warnings, I tought I thought of everything
    no navigator to guide my way home
    unladened, empty and turned to stone

    a soul in tension that's learning to fly
    condition grounded but determined to try
    can't keep my eyes from the -circling- skies
    tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I

    above the planet on a wing and a prayer
    my grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air
    across the clouds I see my shadow fly
    out of the corner of my watering eye
    a dream unthreatened by the morning light
    gould blow this soul right through the roof of the night

    there's no sensation to compare with this
    suspended animation, a state of bliss
    can't keep my mind from the circling sky
    tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I


    I particularly like that line about 'no navigator, to guide my way home', and then later, 'a dream unthreatened by morning light'

    As for John being the candle that burns on both ends - he definitely had that in himself, especially during season 1, but his responsibilities and Elizabeth's influence balanced him greatly. After she was gone, his light was mostly gone too.
    I'm not weird, I'm limited edition.

    Comment


      Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
      I always hated when they turned Ronon into the dumb caveman, especially when it was done in order to make another character look good. They did the same thing to John sometimes. First Contact and TLT are the worst episodes for both John and Ronon in terms of making them look dumb.

      I actually developed an intense hate for Ronon's stupidity following those episodes, and i usually really liked Ronon. And the whole John lusting/pining over Larrin in the middle of a crisis was beyond aggravating.
      Yeah, the dumbing down of John is one of my pet peeves also.


      Originally posted by Lythisrose View Post
      I hesitate a bit to bring this up here, as I know the Thread isn't a big fan of Jo Graham, but she posted a bit about John's character development today, so it kind of fits the discussion.
      http://jo-graham.livejournal.com/68466.html
      See, I don't see John as burning the candle at both ends. He's military. He has done what needs to be done to keep us safe. His job as a member of the military was to kill people and break things. His specific job as a helicopter pilot was to rescue people who had been out killing people and breaking things. It wasn't personal so there was no burning of the candle.

      If she's talking about his personal life, well I don't see it there either. There is a lot of divorce in just the same situation as John's, nothing unusual nothing particularly traumatic that I can see. I don't see him as being immoral or dishonest or living a dangerous lifestyle. So how can he be burning the candle at either end, the middle or both ends?

      She has no understanding of the John Sheppard I saw on my TV at all. Yes, he has abandonment issues. Yes, he keeps himself apart from people probably to prevent being abandoned. Yes, he may have a savior complex. But in Atlantis he found a family of sorts and it wasn't until that family began to be in danger and fall apart that his personality changed. And if she is going to attempt to say it had nothing to do with Elizabeth, she doesn't know what she is talking about. I don't think he is in any danger of burning out as long as he has a mission and people to save.
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      Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

      Comment


        Originally posted by southern red View Post
        yeah, the dumbing down of john is one of my pet peeves also.




        See, i don't see john as burning the candle at both ends. He's military. He has done what needs to be done to keep us safe. His job as a member of the military was to kill people and break things. His specific job as a helicopter pilot was to rescue people who had been out killing people and breaking things. It wasn't personal so there was no burning of the candle.

        If she's talking about his personal life, well i don't see it there either. There is a lot of divorce in just the same situation as john's, nothing unusual nothing particularly traumatic that i can see. I don't see him as being immoral or dishonest or living a dangerous lifestyle. So how can he be burning the candle at either end, the middle or both ends?

        She has no understanding of the john sheppard i saw on my tv at all. Yes, he has abandonment issues. Yes, he keeps himself apart from people probably to prevent being abandoned. Yes, he may have a savior complex. But in atlantis he found a family of sorts and it wasn't until that family began to be in danger and fall apart that his personality changed. And if she is going to attempt to say it had nothing to do with elizabeth, she doesn't know what she is talking about. I don't think he is in any danger of burning out as long as he has a mission and people to save.
        amen!
        I'm not weird, I'm limited edition.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
          Yeah, the dumbing down of John is one of my pet peeves also.




          See, I don't see John as burning the candle at both ends. He's military. He has done what needs to be done to keep us safe. His job as a member of the military was to kill people and break things. His specific job as a helicopter pilot was to rescue people who had been out killing people and breaking things. It wasn't personal so there was no burning of the candle.

          If she's talking about his personal life, well I don't see it there either. There is a lot of divorce in just the same situation as John's, nothing unusual nothing particularly traumatic that I can see. I don't see him as being immoral or dishonest or living a dangerous lifestyle. So how can he be burning the candle at either end, the middle or both ends?

          She has no understanding of the John Sheppard I saw on my TV at all. Yes, he has abandonment issues. Yes, he keeps himself apart from people probably to prevent being abandoned. Yes, he may have a savior complex. But in Atlantis he found a family of sorts and it wasn't until that family began to be in danger and fall apart that his personality changed. And if she is going to attempt to say it had nothing to do with Elizabeth, she doesn't know what she is talking about. I don't think he is in any danger of burning out as long as he has a mission and people to save.
          Yes John doesn't need to become a homewrecker to be happy, healthy, and whole. I would imagine he would feel guilty for breaking up a family and cause him more emotional problems that he supposedly already has.
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            Originally posted by Anuna View Post
            As for John being the candle that burns on both ends - he definitely had that in himself, especially during season 1, but his responsibilities and Elizabeth's influence balanced him greatly. After she was gone, his light was mostly gone too.
            Well said. The early John, before he realized that yes, he could count on Elizabeth and everyone in Atlantis, had those tendencies, but once he did learn to trust, he settled down. Sure, he still took risks, but as SR said, that's simply his job. And he always knew he had somewhere (and someone) to come home to.

            Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
            Yes John doesn't need to become a homewrecker to be happy, healthy, and whole. I would imagine he would feel guilty for breaking up a family and cause him more emotional problems that he supposedly already has.
            In-very-deed. It's like I've said on numerous occasions; the canon John Sheppard has never broken the rules for his own personal gain.
            (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
            Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

            Comment


              Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
              Yes John doesn't need to become a homewrecker to be happy, healthy, and whole. I would imagine he would feel guilty for breaking up a family and cause him more emotional problems that he supposedly already has.
              Amen. I doubt he could live with himself if he knew a woman left the father of her child because of him. So anyone who thinks he'd go for that doesn't know him or anything about him. Can you tell this hits my hot button? LOL

              Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
              Well said. The early John, before he realized that yes, he could count on Elizabeth and everyone in Atlantis, had those tendencies, but once he did learn to trust, he settled down. Sure, he still took risks, but as SR said, that's simply his job. And he always knew he had somewhere (and someone) to come home to.



              In-very-deed. It's like I've said on numerous occasions; the canon John Sheppard has never broken the rules for his own personal gain.
              Yes yes yes. See that's the whole thing. He arrived in Atlantis complacent. Not broken. Not crazy. Not suffering from PTSD but complacent. He told Jack he liked it in Antarctica and he was upbeat and relaxed and seemed to genuinely be okay with his lot in life. When he wandered into the outpost and sat in that chair he was happy go lucky and friendly and had a smile on his face. I didn't see any sort of mental confusion or this or that syndrome. He was even willing to quickly forgive Carson for causing him and Jack to almost be blown out of the sky. This is not a desperate man who is on the edge. Circumstances after he arrived in Atlantis changed his whole focus and he had to grow up fast so to speak. Up to that point he had never been in a command position but he stepped up admirably and did not show any sort of reluctance or struggle with it. Very shortly he was able to joke around with Rodney, tell stories to the Athosian kids and watch football games over a big bowl of popcorn for God's sakes. He wasn't hiding in his room or being all doom and gloom on the edge of the Atlantis society. He was taking part completely in the daily life of the base. That is in no way indicative of someone who has any sort of adjustment problem.

              And he was modest and in no way self serving. The only thing I see that he did that was selfish was in regards to Chaya. He should not have been so quick to trust her and bring her on the base. I still think there was some sort of hoo doo going on there. Perhaps the Ancient gene connection influenced him. I dunno. Or maybe it was to show a little imperfection but when it came to duty he was impeccable. Once his team got in place he began to trust them implicitly and his reaction to losing Ford was just the first of many such moments when he was willing to do anything for his new family. I don't see any difference in any of the times he saved each and every one of them until his reaction to losing Elizabeth. That's when it became personal and the woobie face got intense. So that's the John we know and love and anyone who tries to change him will have to answer to us.
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                Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                Amen. I doubt he could live with himself if he knew a woman left the father of her child because of him. So anyone who thinks he'd go for that doesn't know him or anything about him. Can you tell this hits my hot button? LOL



                Yes yes yes. See that's the whole thing. He arrived in Atlantis complacent. Not broken. Not crazy. Not suffering from PTSD but complacent. He told Jack he liked it in Antarctica and he was upbeat and relaxed and seemed to genuinely be okay with his lot in life. When he wandered into the outpost and sat in that chair he was happy go lucky and friendly and had a smile on his face. I didn't see any sort of mental confusion or this or that syndrome. He was even willing to quickly forgive Carson for causing him and Jack to almost be blown out of the sky. This is not a desperate man who is on the edge. Circumstances after he arrived in Atlantis changed his whole focus and he had to grow up fast so to speak. Up to that point he had never been in a command position but he stepped up admirably and did not show any sort of reluctance or struggle with it. Very shortly he was able to joke around with Rodney, tell stories to the Athosian kids and watch football games over a big bowl of popcorn for God's sakes. He wasn't hiding in his room or being all doom and gloom on the edge of the Atlantis society. He was taking part completely in the daily life of the base. That is in no way indicative of someone who has any sort of adjustment problem.

                And he was modest and in no way self serving. The only thing I see that he did that was selfish was in regards to Chaya. He should not have been so quick to trust her and bring her on the base. I still think there was some sort of hoo doo going on there. Perhaps the Ancient gene connection influenced him. I dunno. Or maybe it was to show a little imperfection but when it came to duty he was impeccable. Once his team got in place he began to trust them implicitly and his reaction to losing Ford was just the first of many such moments when he was willing to do anything for his new family. I don't see any difference in any of the times he saved each and every one of them until his reaction to losing Elizabeth. That's when it became personal and the woobie face got intense. So that's the John we know and love and anyone who tries to change him will have to answer to us.
                Its a hot button for me too, and no amount of poetic delving into John's "tortured" soul is going to help me accept a set of circumstances that lead to John deciding that his friend and teammate is the woman for him and that said teammate has been living a lie for the past year and that John is the only one for her, or that they should all get together and be one happy family. IMO John is the way he is at the end of the series because he is kinda burdened by the losses of his friends especially Elizabeth and then Ford, and any others he may of lost in 5 yrs. He and Elizabeth shared the burden of command of Atlantis for 3 yrs; they went through a lot together; lost friends together. She wasn't a soldier or warrior, she was a diplomat and peacemaker; it was his responsibility to protect her and he failed; and she was lost to him and Atlantis. In season 4 and 5 I believe we get a darker John because of this. He doesnt want to fail any of his friends again like he did Elizabeth; and he'll go to further extremes than before in order to protect the people he loves and the things that are important to him. The burden of command is what it wearing at him if anything, not the fact that he doesnt have a woman by his side. Since Elizabeth's departure he hasnt really had enough time to learn to fully share that burden again with her replacements. It seems to take him a while to trust people fully, and neither Sam or Woolsey were with him as long as Elizabeth, or gone through as much with him. I know he has his team but he is also responsible for their safety and his command decisions could lead to their deaths, and he knows that; so he keeps his distance a bit. I think that is normal for someone in his position. And maybe he does need to open up more to his friends in order to be more emotionally healthy, but it doesnt have to lead to a romance that could potentially make things worse for him. He has his friends and his family and a home he loves; for some people that can be enough. I don't buy the bs that someone is trying to sell that John getting a certain woman is the only way he can be healthy and whole. Especially when the way i see it it would be a bad thing for both characters, and I'm not someone who adheres to a strict white christian upper middle class philosophy, or what not.
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                  Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                  If she goes next year, I'll meet you there.
                  That'll make at least three of us

                  Originally posted by ddc View Post
                  As for Torri, she's Canadian but lives in LA. From this it sounds like she's a US Citizen?
                  She actually told us that this weekend. She won an acting award in Canada and attached to it was the possibility for a green-card. So she took that and on the green card it actually says: Alien with extraordinary ability.
                  Isn't that just awesome!!

                  Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                  The conversation at the end of HZ has some of this:

                  //cut for space

                  *shakes fist at Rodney and Carson* I wish we could have revisited that. Good writers would have done the same thing they did with the trust issues between John and Rodney after Trinity and had them make a few more comments about how he had learned to trust her and vice versa. Fail.
                  Part of my missing moments fic is that missing piece ;^)

                  Spoiler:
                  (after the ep)

                  McKay looked between the two commanders and noticed the tension that hung thick in the air. The annoyed look on John’s face was also a dead give-away that their timing had sucked.
                  “Maybe we should…” He said to Carson while pointing to the door.
                  “Aye… we really should.” Carson replied instantly, also noticing the tension and annoyed looks.
                  “Right.” Rodney said and walked outside, closely followed by Carson.
                  John turned back to Elizabeth and sighed before looking her straight in the eye.
                  “Yes, I do trust you.”
                  His intense gaze nearly made her catch her breath, but instead she shoved the feelings deftly aside and stared back, unwavering.
                  “Then why didn’t you follow my instructions? Why did you force Bates to disobey me? Why did you risk everyone’s live in the city?”
                  He cast his eyes away, unable to hold her calculated gaze.
                  “Your life was at risk.” He finally said quietly, looking back into her eyes.
                  The many emotions she saw cross over his eyes did take her breath away and she was lost for words for just a few moments.
                  ~Let it be an Air Force flyboy to make you speechless for the first time in your life.~ The thought was accompanied by a mental groan.
                  Now it was her turn to cast her eyes away and sigh. “My life isn’t any more important than anyone else’s.”
                  “Bull****.” John said, not missing a beat and almost sounding offended. “Without you none of us would even be here to begin with.”
                  “That doesn’t matter, John. I do not want you to put my life in front of anyone else’s or in front of the safety of this city.”
                  The silent looks that followed between them conveyed much more than words ever could.
                  “Fine.” He finally sighed dejectedly.
                  “Thank you.”
                  “Can I go get some sleep now?” He asked quietly.
                  “Of course.” Elizabeth said and watched him get up from the chair and move out of her office without looking back.
                  Today had broken something between them and she wasn’t sure how long they would need to get it fixed.


                  Originally posted by Anuna View Post
                  Fic as promised! My first entry written for otl_fest; called Inspiration. My prompt was "aliens made them do it, they didn't mind". Needless to say, I had tons of fun poking at the ever popular topic of aliens making them FINALLY do it. M rated, so mind my warnings.

                  Includes few good laughs and a scene with Elizabeth and Teyla that I am incredibly proud of
                  YAY!!!!!!!!!!! *goes to read*

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                    In other news: I made it to NYC *does a silly little happy dance*
                    But that wasn't actually the other news
                    A few pages ago, you guys were talking about 'Hunt and Run' and the inconsistencies with the show. Well, believe it or now, but the author was at Shore Leave this weekend, so I bought the book to get it signed, not yet knowing it broke canon. Otherwise I would have talked to him about that.
                    Anyway, I remember someone asking what he had changed (or something along those lines) and I started reading the book in the airports today, I'm at page 74 and I already have a little list.
                    Now for good measure. It is well written and it really is a Ronon story that covers his history and it's very interesting... if the history being written here wasn't all faulty. And it's been a while since I've seen Runner and Sateda, so if I say something is wrong, that is actually right, forgive me, I'm just going from memory here.

                    Thus, on with the list:
                    - In the book Ronon is choosen by the Wraith to become a Runner because he's a warrior, not because he's immune to being fed upon.
                    - Actually the first Wraith that captures him after he's let loose to be a Runner tries to feed off of him, but is stopped by another runner.
                    - He saw Melena die at close range
                    - The trackers are rigged, so if they tried to take them out, they would explode
                    - he was released without weapons (maybe further on the book will explain how he got his famous gun)
                    - Ronon says about the gate: They had the strange circular portals (notice the plural) on Sateda as well, and the elders knew the secret of activating them.
                    - even though he finds the gate a strange circular portal, he and his fellow warriors still get trained to be able to read the time of day on another planet keeping in mind the distance to the sun and size of the sun and of the planet. Would that not mean that he and his fellow warriors got to go offworld and didn't find the gate that mysterious... or is that just me?

                    Like I said, it's a shame I didn't know this before I talked to the writer, because I would have talked to him about this.

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                      Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                      In other news: I made it to NYC *does a silly little happy dance*
                      But that wasn't actually the other news
                      A few pages ago, you guys were talking about 'Hunt and Run' and the inconsistencies with the show. Well, believe it or now, but the author was at Shore Leave this weekend, so I bought the book to get it signed, not yet knowing it broke canon. Otherwise I would have talked to him about that.
                      Anyway, I remember someone asking what he had changed (or something along those lines) and I started reading the book in the airports today, I'm at page 74 and I already have a little list.
                      Now for good measure. It is well written and it really is a Ronon story that covers his history and it's very interesting... if the history being written here wasn't all faulty. And it's been a while since I've seen Runner and Sateda, so if I say something is wrong, that is actually right, forgive me, I'm just going from memory here.

                      Thus, on with the list:
                      - In the book Ronon is choosen by the Wraith to become a Runner because he's a warrior, not because he's immune to being fed upon.
                      - Actually the first Wraith that captures him after he's let loose to be a Runner tries to feed off of him, but is stopped by another runner.
                      - He saw Melena die at close range
                      - The trackers are rigged, so if they tried to take them out, they would explode
                      - he was released without weapons (maybe further on the book will explain how he got his famous gun)
                      - Ronon says about the gate: They had the strange circular portals (notice the plural) on Sateda as well, and the elders knew the secret of activating them.
                      - even though he finds the gate a strange circular portal, he and his fellow warriors still get trained to be able to read the time of day on another planet keeping in mind the distance to the sun and size of the sun and of the planet. Would that not mean that he and his fellow warriors got to go offworld and didn't find the gate that mysterious... or is that just me?

                      Like I said, it's a shame I didn't know this before I talked to the writer, because I would have talked to him about this.
                      I'm still waiting for my book to arrive it should be here in a day or 2, i have Dead end but i havent read it yet. As for Ronon being immune to Wraith feeding that is just what was at first assumed but it was never stated in the show's canon. I always just thought that ronon was chosen because he was spirited and would prove a challenge to hunt him, making it great sport. And later on he get fed on anyway to hes not immune.


                      Add:I think i read your post wrong about Ronon being immune if i did oops lol
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                        Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                        That'll make at least three of us
                        Four! I want in on this action! LOL

                        Thanks for the great reports Kris!
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                          SR, VampyreWraith, I just want to say I totally agree with both your posts on John! You've both totally hit the nail on the head about his real mental state throughout the series.

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          That'll make at least three of us
                          And now four with Irish Eyes... whoo, we're gonna have one heckuva party!

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          She actually told us that this weekend. She won an acting award in Canada and attached to it was the possibility for a green-card. So she took that and on the green card it actually says: Alien with extraordinary ability.
                          Isn't that just awesome!!
                          *cracks up* That's hilarious!

                          So, what's canon and what's not in Hunt and Run...

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          - In the book Ronon is choosen by the Wraith to become a Runner because he's a warrior, not because he's immune to being fed upon.
                          Canon. As VampyreWraith pointed out, the story about Ronon being immune to Wraith feeding was a fan interpretation of the flashback scene from "Runner" in which we see a Wraith about to feed, then pulling back; in the episode, Ronon only says that 'something' made the Wraith stop. In Season 5's "Broken Ties," we learn once and for all that Ronon can be fed upon. So yeah, they probably turned Ronon into a Runner because he was a warrior and would give them a good hunt.

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          - Actually the first Wraith that captures him after he's let loose to be a Runner tries to feed off of him, but is stopped by another runner.
                          As far as I recall, we never heard this story on the show, so it's not canon.

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          - He saw Melena die at close range
                          Canon. We saw this in flashback scenes in "Sateda." She was standing in front of a window, there was an explosion outside that blew inwards and she was incinerated in a big fireball right before Ronon's eyes.

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          - The trackers are rigged, so if they tried to take them out, they would explode
                          Not canon. The Wraith simply placed the tracking devices in Ronon and Kiryk from "Tracker" in the base of the neck to make it virtually impossible for the Runners to remove them by themselves (and in Kiryk's case, the tracker had fused to his spine).

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          - he was released without weapons (maybe further on the book will explain how he got his famous gun)
                          Canon. When he was recaptured and released in "Sateda" he didn't have weapons on him; it looked like he didn't in the flashbacks from his first release in "Runner," either.

                          Originally posted by KrisRussel View Post
                          - Ronon says about the gate: They had the strange circular portals (notice the plural) on Sateda as well, and the elders knew the secret of activating them.
                          - even though he finds the gate a strange circular portal, he and his fellow warriors still get trained to be able to read the time of day on another planet keeping in mind the distance to the sun and size of the sun and of the planet. Would that not mean that he and his fellow warriors got to go offworld and didn't find the gate that mysterious... or is that just me?
                          Not canon. Based on Ronon's statements to Melena in the flashbacks in "Sateda," all the Satedans knew what the Stargates were and how they worked. They were not 'strange' at all.

                          By the way, for those of you who have Hunt and Run and Dead End, what seasons are they set in? Basically, does Elizabeth make any appearances or not?
                          (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                          Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                          Comment


                            ScaryKitty I haven't read Dead End so I don't know Elizabeth's role in the book but according to the author's note in the beginning it says that the book takes place during the early episodes of season 3 before the discovery of the asurans or the construction of the gate bridge.
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                              Originally posted by VampyreWraith View Post
                              ScaryKitty I haven't read Dead End so I don't know Elizabeth's role in the book but according to the author's note in the beginning it says that the book takes place during the early episodes of season 3 before the discovery of the asurans or the construction of the gate bridge.
                              Oh, good! I'll have to get that one, then. When it comes to merchandise, I vote with my pocketbook. No Elizabeth, they don't get my money.
                              (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                              Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                              Comment


                                See, it's been a while since I've seen the eps... and another point I forgot: The writer says that the tracker is located in the lower back. Now I know that's wrong
                                I've leaved through it and saw Woolsey's name pop up, so I guess it's set during S5.

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