Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Southern Red]

You can also blame yourself for not saving your loved one from mental disease. Those feelings, likes trong guilt tend to be irrational and present, regardless of the afct if you could saved someone or not.

You've been in my head again Ms. Psychologist. I'm still trying to save my brother. (Asperger's, for those who don't know) Maybe John's trying to save his "family" is to make up for not being able to save his mom. He's determined to get it right this time. The lines that Kolya was going to say about his mother and Elizabeth would back that up. So one of you medically smart sciencey people needs to find the perfect disease or condition that would make it all fall into place.

The time when he wouldn't say goodbye to Rodney seemed to go beyond the moment to me too. It felt like he'd been there before. And it wasn't just the beer talking.

[Anuna]

Well, we kinda have stuff mentioned about John's Dad--in Outcast, John mentions that his father planned his life out for him and John rebelled against that; he also thought by leaving he was doing what his father wanted, but Grant tells him that his father was sad by what had happened between them and wanted to try and reconcile things. John was surprised by that. It doesn't seem that Patrick Sheppard held anything against John, just grew angry that John didn't do what he wanted him to do. We also know that Patrick approved of John's marriage to Nancy, so they at least spoke enough to allow Nancy to meet Patrick (since she mentions he was always nice to her).

It's David, not Grant.

True. However I don't see it as contradiction to my idea.

But, as obviously everyone seems to think it's a too far stretch I'll just save it for another story and work it in because I do think it fits.

[nephtys59]

SGU? Ugh ... can't understand how the hell they got a Season 2.
I only save Dr. Rush, at least they gave us a reason for him to be a bast@rd (sort of) in "Human" episode.

[VampyreWraith]

Ugh, IKR!

Spoiler:

Them having sex while using the stones is so wrong on so many levels *shudders*
And luckily it wasn't like that this time...

SGU

Spoiler:

exactly, and thank god for small miricles. The stones should only be used for getting scientific/medical assistance, or reporting back to earth. not sex with loved ones or going clubbing lol

[Fionnait]

I didn't know that about TP. I love his books. So sad.

Sir Terry is the best! Best female characters in the history of Fantasy and every character, even the minor ones, is three-dimensional. He has donated 1 million US$ for Alzheimer's disease research and has made a lot of public appearances since, including a series on TV on how to cope with the disease (he is early stage). He's said that if you have cancer you are a brave warrior battling an evil disease, but that if you have Alzheimer's you're just an old fart and that this should change in the public eye. He's also fighting for assisted suicide And he's still funny as hell, I don't know where people like him take their strength from, it seems to be endless.

Lol its ok I'm always forgetting words and misspelling things and not always expressing myself correctly, and i tend to babble to try to explain myself properly lol sorta like now

And I tend to be a know-it-all, just hit me on the head, it usually helps.

[Scary Kitty]

And SGU opens with a sex scene yet again. *headdesk*

On John's mom: I also always had a feeling she died of cancer. And cancer can be very long whined and very painful to watch someone suffer through it. Trust me, I lost my aunt only a couple of months ago and she suffered for nearly a year. The last couple of months were the most difficult though and I can imagine John's dad barely able to handle it if something like that were to happen with John's mom. And John being royally pissed at his dad for doing that.

Again? Oh, geeze.

Yeah, I can picture a scenario where the rift between John and his father starts over Patrick burying himself in his work or whatever else to run away from dealing with his wife's illness.

Those are all very good points. And if John blames himself for his mom's death, maybe his dad did too and that could have caused the rift between them.

Exactly what I was thinking. And then what David mentioned in Outcast about their father always regretting what happened between Patrick and John; a sign that Patrick realized he was wrong to blame John.

On the John's mother front, I'm ambivalent and torn. It needs to be logical and the explanation for his abandonment issues yet make sense in canon along with the things Eri mentioned. So whatever the writers decide is okay by me. As far as his dad ordering his life, since you enter high school at around 14, that may have been the time when John's dad started making plans for his future. What college, etc. If it corresponds with the time of his mother's death, it would have really stuck with him. John may even have just gone along with it for a time until he got out of high school and made his own plans? That brings up the question of did his dad refuse to pay for college. Did he enter the Air Force and then get his degree? I don't think that would have worked too well. Did he work and put himself through college? Scholarships? ROTC would work and make the most sense. Then he went into the AF when he graduated against his dad's wishes.

That's my issue; whatever we decide to do about what happened to John's mother, it needs to fit in with what we've seen on the show.

I do like the suggestion to set all of it-- the death of his mother, his father trying to order John's life-- around the time that John turns 14/enters high school. Maybe John snuck around behind his father's back with the ROTC; if we decide to go with that line from John about going to Stanford being a rebellion as serious rather than a joke, it might be even easier for John to have hidden it, as he would've had to take ROTC at another school since Stanford has banned ROTC from their campus for decades.

We don't really know why exactly John's grudge with his father is. Yes, there's the control issue, but I got an impression that whatever caused a rift between them had to be profound and painful for both of them. As we've heard, John's mother was supposed to be mentioned in "Outcast" but she never was, so we don't have a conclusive proof if John did or didn't begrudge his father over anything related to his mother. IMO, the canon has enough loopholes for this idea, if it's played out carefully. But I'm not going to push it if everyone else has issues with it.
The fact that john didn't want to tell goodbye to rodney, while rodney was still lucid seems like a sort of denial -- I don't want to go through all that again thing. Maybe I should rewatch The Shrine, but I think I remember it well enough. John was sad and scared and very worried. It seems logical enough to me.

I also saw his reaction in The Shrine as being "I don't want to lose any more of my friends," but fueled more by his more recent losses in Atlantis, those of Elizabeth, the original Carson, Ford, Kate, and so on. Since he feels closer to his new family in Atlantis than to his blood family on Earth. But that's just me.

[VampyreWraith]

SGU? Ugh ... can't understand how the hell they got a Season 2.
I only save Dr. Rush, at least they gave us a reason for him to be a bast@rd (sort of) in "Human" episode.

Spoiler:

rush and eli are the only ones i really like and i can stand tj and greer, the rest of the crew shouldve been left on that alien manufactured planet and mabe return after a serious personality makeover

[KrisRussel]

SGU

Spoiler:

And some more pop-music as an interlude *facepalm*

[Fionnait]

SGU

Spoiler:

And some more pop-music as an interlude *facepalm*

Spoiler:

Pfui!! I hate pop-music on Sci-fi. I can't help it, it always sounds stupid. I'll make an exception for the use of All Along The Watchtower on BSG.

Right, so abandonment and blaming yourself/each other. What about a clinical depression and suicide? Would that fit with what we know about canon? (I have still not seen S5. Or S4, except for the Torri eps.)

[Eri13]

It's David, not Grant.

True. However I don't see it as contradiction to my idea.

But, as obviously everyone seems to think it's a too far stretch I'll just save it for another story and work it in because I do think it fits.

There's no need to feel offended. I'm just presenting what show canon says and what different interpretations of it might mean. I'm sorry I got David's name wrong, I'm working off memory like everyone else. It doesn't mean the idea is wrong or doesn't fit, just that we need to find a way to make it work so that the majority of those who read it find it believable with what the show has said.

As we've shown here, there are many different ways John's past is viewed by people, we just need to find a common denominator that makes sense to most of us.

[VampyreWraith]

Spoiler:

Pfui!! I hate pop-music on Sci-fi. I can't help it, it always sounds stupid. I'll make an exception for the use of All Along The Watchtower on BSG.

Right, so abandonment and blaming yourself/each other. What about a clinical depression and suicide? Would that fit with what we know about canon? (I have still not seen S5. Or S4, except for the Torri eps.)

if anyone wants to know about depression or bipolar disorder im intimately aquainted with those. lol

[Anuna]

Spoiler:

Pfui!! I hate pop-music on Sci-fi. I can't help it, it always sounds stupid. I'll make an exception for the use of All Along The Watchtower on BSG.

Right, so abandonment and blaming yourself/each other. What about a clinical depression and suicide? Would that fit with what we know about canon? (I have still not seen S5. Or S4, except for the Torri eps.)

I'm not fan of either, especially not suicide.

If we decide to play suicide card, then it would feel - at least to me - as a too convenient way to explain John, and it would drag too much angst into the equation. Or maybe that's just my bias, ebacsue I really really don't liek dealing with depressive and suicidal clients because they tend to suck life out of you. Also, we'd be abck to the question if John is depressive or suicidale and I think majority agreed previously that he is neither.

Either way, I'd play a card of progressive and terminal disease, save cancer, because cancer stories ahve been done gazzilion times over and over. I don't like them because they're a cliche. But then, there is the issue of John not disliking the hospitals enough? As I've said, different people react to this differently, IMO. The way I see John, he doesn't like hospitals, and has the underlying issue of not wanting to be helpless and useless (as seen in Conversion. or maybe I am seeing too much into it, because I tend to overanalyze and I heart my psychology too much.). Someone who went through a loss of someone close can react like that, especially if the medical condition in question resulted in this person becoming helpless/depending on other's help and thus losing the sense of dignity among other things.

But then again, simple son against father rebellion seems to work.

[Fionnait]

I'm not fan of either, especially not suicide.

I'm also not a fan. Especially since I have personal issues with suicide and I will never be able to understand how you could possibly get such a stupid idea into your head (unless you are terminally ill, that is). But I just wanted to input it into the discussion, because I think it would fit.
And I agree on John not being suicidal.

[Anuna]

I'm also not a fan. Especially since I have personal issues with suicide and I will never be able to understand how you could possibly get such a stupid idea into your head (unless you are terminally ill, that is). But I just wanted to input it into the discussion, because I think it would fit.
And I agree on John not being suicidal.

I'ms ticking to my view of him as someone in high risk of commiting a suicidal act. Mind you that psychiatry's view and definition af which actions are/can be seen as suicidal are broader and different than what we in everyday life call suicidal. But I'm not getting into taht again, because one wank was quite enough. As if I had no idea what I'm talking about.

[VampyreWraith]

I'm also not a fan. Especially since I have personal issues with suicide and I will never be able to understand how you could possibly get such a stupid idea into your head (unless you are terminally ill, that is). But I just wanted to input it into the discussion, because I think it would fit.
And I agree on John not being suicidal.

I dont see john as likely to commit suicide, and i don't see him as having depression in a clinical sense either. I thouht the comment was in reference to his mom anyway. I can understand though about the idea of suicide and how someone can think its a good idea at the time, even though it really isnt.