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    Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
    I don't think you're way off at all. I have watched a lot of shows in my life, in fact most of the ones she mentioned in the article and I think she was dead on in her analysis. Taking all those other pairings into consideration, how could you look at Sparky and not think it fit the pattern? The lack of logic involved in that conclusion would be....well...illogical. I don't care what TPTB thought they were doing, the majority of the viewers saw a Sparky connection beyond the surface one. And that kind of thing cannot possibly be accidental. When I think of how it would have burned up the screen if it had been scripted, I get weak in the knees. LOL
    Weak in the knees, stomach doing flip-flops of nervously giddy anticipation, and feeling the need for chocolate. Lots and lots of chocolate.

    As far as logic goes, I don't think even Spock himself could find fault with the logic of your argument, SR.

    Originally posted by pkprd869 View Post
    Another vote for "Quietus." Sorry, no fairy tales tonight. I won't quote everybody, but I think star-crossed is a good description. The UST, body language, and rapport was all there and stayed there. C'mon, you don't agree to take on the consciousness of a stranger just him and his wife can say "bye" in "private" just to be a nice guy!
    THIS. Actions speak louder than words, and John, of his own free will without any drugs, genetic mutation, or possession by alien entity, clearly indicated that he wanted (and still wants) Elizabeth.

    And that's four for Quietus! Keep those votes coming, folks!
    (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
    Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

    Comment


      Quietus sounds good to me.

      Love the fairy tale fic, pkprd!
      sigpic
      Lovely Sparkiness! ~*~ My: Fanfics - Vids ~*~

      Comment


        Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
        So, we got a mention in a random sci-fi article:
        http://www.airlockalpha.com/node/7311
        Great article! It's actually not the first I've seen that addresses the John/Elizabeth relationship as a romance on the show (I recall reading a mention in another article a while back). Goes to show that the relationship's fans are not restricted to loyal viewers on GateWorld's forum.

        Whoever is keeping track of episode title votes. I really like What Dreams May Come. "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come/When we have shuffled off this mortal coil" -- Hamlet says you have to worry what happens after death and that's something to worry about (my very loose interpretation). It signals uncertainty, maybe in connection to Elizabeth and the uncertainty of her future given the mistrust that her nanites are gone. In a sense, I guess, she has "died" and her return to Atlantis may be a "rebirth" of sorts. To twist the meaning a bit. So, works for me.

        (Quietus is cool too, but I've always been a fan of multiple-worded episode titles)

        Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
        I seem to be hit and miss with regards to how well my ships fare. Some, like Babylon 5's John and Delenn, were winners, while others like SGA's John and Elizabeth and
        Spoiler:
        24's Jack and Renee,
        apparently were doomed.
        LOL. I seem to be attracted to the losers, then (in both characters and relationships).

        Kind of OT response to Kitty.
        Spoiler:
        I'm uber MIFFED at last night's episode. They had to kill Renee off? Renee was the best female character on the show since Michelle. It kind of feels like Carson and Elizabeth all over again, except it was so cliche so it wasn't shocking (which was certainly what was intended). Raawr.


        The article above mentioned "star-crossed". Funny word, is it not? It's stemmed from the word "disaster", believe it or not -- "dis" + "aster" (star).

        *sigh*.

        Oh, I do like tragedy when it's done well. It just hasn't been done well as of late.
        Last edited by Reiko; 13 April 2010, 08:09 PM.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Reiko View Post
          Great article! It's actually not the first I've seen that addresses the John/Elizabeth relationship as a romance on the show (I recall reading a mention in another article a while back). Goes to show that the relationship's fans are not restricted to loyal viewers on GateWorld's forum.
          Heh. We're everywhere. Delivering your mail. In your grocery store. On your city council. There is no escape from us. It's a vast Sparky wing conspiracy. MUAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

          Originally posted by Reiko View Post
          Whoever is keeping track of episode title votes. I really like What Dreams May Come. "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come/When we have shuffled off this mortal coil" -- Hamlet says you have to worry what happens after death and that's something to worry about (my very loose interpretation). It signals uncertainty, maybe in connection to Elizabeth and the uncertainty of her future given the mistrust that her nanites are gone. In a sense, I guess, she has "died" and her return to Atlantis may be a "rebirth" of sorts. To twist the meaning a bit. So, works for me.

          (Quietus is cool too, but I've always been a fan of multiple-worded episode titles)
          Hot damn, that is an awesome explanation for that title.

          Originally posted by Reiko View Post
          LOL. I seem to be attracted to the losers, then (in both characters and relationships).

          Kind of OT response to Kitty.
          Spoiler:
          I'm uber MIFFED at last night's episode. They had to kill Renee off? Renee was the best female character on the show since Michelle. It kind of feels like Carson and Elizabeth all over again, except it was so cliche so it wasn't shocking (which was certainly what was intended). Raawr.
          No kidding!
          Spoiler:
          Renee was the Elizabeth to Jack's John. She understood him in ways that no one else can and really, truly was his equal in every way. That death sucked harder than a black hole!

          And ZOMG! Renee-Annie icon love!


          Originally posted by Reiko View Post
          The article above mentioned "star-crossed". Funny word, is it not? It's stemmed from the word "disaster", believe it or not -- "dis" + "aster" (star).

          *sigh*.

          Oh, I do like tragedy when it's done well. It just hasn't been done well as of late.
          *snerks at the dissection and examination of "star-crossed"* For the record, I also like tragedy when it's done well. And yes, recent attempts have crashed and burned in a fiery apocalypse that makes sulfur and tar smell like roses in comparison.
          (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
          Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
            Heh. We're everywhere. Delivering your mail. In your grocery store. On your city council. There is no escape from us. It's a vast Sparky wing conspiracy. MUAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
            And, as shown before, in your other shows. Funny thing I just realised -- SGA was the first fandom that I really shipped anything in heavy-duty. I had liked certain couples in other stories but not to the extent to Sparky.

            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
            Hot damn, that is an awesome explanation for that title.
            Thanks. Went over Hamlet again not too long ago so it's fresh in my mind.

            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
            No kidding!
            Spoiler:
            Renee was the Elizabeth to Jack's John. She understood him in ways that no one else can and really, truly was his equal in every way. That death sucked harder than a black hole!

            And ZOMG! Renee-Annie icon love!
            Right!
            Spoiler:
            You know, I kind of disliked the idea of them getting together for a long while (which was out of fear that she would be diminished to a weaker, Audrey-like role) but then last night's episode made me realized that it would be perfect if there was some real suggestion before season's end.

            As much as I resented that the producers were doing it for the shock value (like on SGA) and that I thought the way they killed her was crappy and predictable (imo), you can't deny that it's so godawful a moment, those last moments. You want for him so badly to get a break and recieve some good fortune. Instead it seems just like tragedy upon tragedy. Poor Jack and poor Renee.


            They're definitely the "Sparky equivalent" (I think every show has one -- it seems like a common and intriguing formula): they find people that suddenly understand them, have a period of real trials, you think they're going to get together and be a happy couple and then one of them dies (since Elizabeth is essentially dead to Bridge PTB). Still trying to make up my mind on which was done better (or worse) at the end of things.

            and yes, new icon.

            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
            *snerks at the dissection and examination of "star-crossed"* For the record, I also like tragedy when it's done well. And yes, recent attempts have crashed and burned in a fiery apocalypse that makes sulfur and tar smell like roses in comparison.
            Love the metaphor. I think too many TV productions and movies try so hard to pull a tearjerker out of their audience but it falls flat because it's predictable, contrived, seems formulated and/or the actual moment doesn't carry enough emotional weight; no katharsis is achieved. It only makes the audience wince or feel cheated. Stargate Atlantis is certainly guilty in this (though I doubt the Elizabeth stuff was meant to be a tearjerker; I'm speaking more of "Sunday".) It doesn't help that the follow-up was not satisfying.

            I haven't thought enough about what exactly makes a successful tragic twist in a tale and what makes others fall flat. I think if the TPTBs wanted J/E to be tragic they could have succeeded with effort and audience satisfaction. Will consider this.

            Comment


              Sorry, I don't join the majority for Quietus (it has also other meanings: Quietus on Wikipedia) and I believe we already have 2 titles with latin names.
              So my vote goes to "Breaking Point"

              Comment


                Originally posted by Reiko View Post
                And, as shown before, in your other shows. Funny thing I just realised -- SGA was the first fandom that I really shipped anything in heavy-duty. I had liked certain couples in other stories but not to the extent to Sparky.
                Heh, same here. I think the closest I ever came before Sparky was John/Delenn on Babylon 5.
                Spoiler:
                24's Jack/Renee was approaching that level, but then... well, you know the rest. *headdesk*


                Originally posted by Reiko View Post
                Right!
                Spoiler:
                You know, I kind of disliked the idea of them getting together for a long while (which was out of fear that she would be diminished to a weaker, Audrey-like role) but then last night's episode made me realized that it would be perfect if there was some real suggestion before season's end.

                As much as I resented that the producers were doing it for the shock value (like on SGA) and that I thought the way they killed her was crappy and predictable (imo), you can't deny that it's so godawful a moment, those last moments. You want for him so badly to get a break and recieve some good fortune. Instead it seems just like tragedy upon tragedy. Poor Jack and poor Renee.


                They're definitely the "Sparky equivalent" (I think every show has one -- it seems like a common and intriguing formula): they find people that suddenly understand them, have a period of real trials, you think they're going to get together and be a happy couple and then one of them dies (since Elizabeth is essentially dead to Bridge PTB). Still trying to make up my mind on which was done better (or worse) at the end of things.

                and yes, new icon.
                Honestly, I'm not sure which did it better or worse, either. There were good things and bad things about both shows.
                Spoiler:
                Though I have to give 24 the edge in that at least the producers acknowledged Jack/Renee as a legitimate relationship instead of flip-flopping between teasing us with it and trying to pretend it didn't exist, like SGA's producers did with John/Elizabeth.


                Originally posted by Reiko View Post
                Love the metaphor. I think too many TV productions and movies try so hard to pull a tearjerker out of their audience but it falls flat because it's predictable, contrived, seems formulated and/or the actual moment doesn't carry enough emotional weight; no katharsis is achieved. It only makes the audience wince or feel cheated. Stargate Atlantis is certainly guilty in this (though I doubt the Elizabeth stuff was meant to be a tearjerker; I'm speaking more of "Sunday".) It doesn't help that the follow-up was not satisfying.

                I haven't thought enough about what exactly makes a successful tragic twist in a tale and what makes others fall flat. I think if the TPTBs wanted J/E to be tragic they could have succeeded with effort and audience satisfaction. Will consider this.

                The very fact that the Elizabeth stuff was probably not meant to be a tearjerker just compounds the producers' multiple errors in how they handled it, in my mind. You're right, had they finally sucked it up and admitted that yes, the viewers were right that J/E had the chemistry to be a truly great romance and actively played it as a tragic, doomed-by-cruel-fate love, it could have been marvelous in its pain. Damnit. *pouts*

                As for a successful tragic twist, I always thought the end of 'Van Helsing' was a real kick in the head.

                Originally posted by nephtys59 View Post
                Sorry, I don't join the majority for Quietus (it has also other meanings: Quietus on Wikipedia) and I believe we already have 2 titles with latin names.
                So my vote goes to "Breaking Point"
                Eh, Wikipedia isn't a dictionary, and it's not a good primary source due to the fact that it can be manipulated edited by non-experts. And there's nothing wrong with Latin names. After all, Sparky is supposed to be the over-educated ship.
                (This is legal notice that any attempt to censor or delete, for the purpose of oppressing fair and open discussion, any statement made by me will be considered a violation of my right to free speech as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, and will be dealt with in accordance with federal law.)
                Sparky is on screen. Therefore, it is canon. Elizabeth is still out there. And John WILL bring her home.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Southern Red View Post
                  He couldn't have done that with Carter. She outranks him.
                  He could have, if he was prepared to live with the consequences. And given her history of people running all over her when she was in charge (I'm talking about back on SG1) of anything, I don't think it'd be a stretch to say there wouldn't have been many consequences. In RL, different story altogether of course

                  With Woolsey I can go either way. I can see Richard being a little hesitant and John jumping in to remind him it's a military situation. Bates had no choice but to obey John and I think Elizabeth knew it. I got the idea that Bates was willing to obey her until John ordered him. It was a sticky situation and if you're not a shipper it was a little more clear cut. The military vs. civilian thing was never effective to me. It kept coming up but they never did much with it. First they had John and Elizabeth stop arguing. Then they softened Caldwell or we ended up with John and whatever Colonel was there at the time double-teaming Elizabeth. I wish they had returned to the HZ conflict. I remember back in the day when the Season One Companion Book came out. Robert Cooper said something about the conflict between Sheppard and Weir not working no matter how hard they tried. At the time we shippers rejoiced and went "well duh". But in hindsight I wish they had thrown in a few more arguments like in HZ. It made the ship even more obvious IMHO.
                  I never saw that HZ arguement as a military vs civilian thing, merely John vs Elizabeth. In fact, the only times they've managed to pull that off convincingly (IMO) have been in Seige II & First Strike, and only because they included Rodney, Radek etc as being sidelined by the military. I don't think TPTW tried very hard at all to make conflict - they did a better job with Hammond & O'Neill Good grief, the only time after HZ that John overrode her authority was with Lucious


                  And we ladies need black boots too (both casual and dressy), and black pumps, black dressy sandals, black casual sandals, black flats, black low heel dressy shoes, black flip flops, black evening shoes, black low heel casual shoes with an open toe, er...what did I leave out. *goes to closet* All of the above can also come in suede, leather, fabric or any combination of the above. And with or without decoration on the toe. Oh, and there are also platforms/wedges in all of the above fabrics and styles.

                  Then you need all of the basic shoe types in navy/tan or brown and a selection of white for summer. Throw in some colors for matchy outfits and you got a shoe closet.
                  Black. Workboots come in black. It's the only colour you need

                  Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                  Both Metamorphesis and Full Circle are SG1 titles in season 6 (the Jonas-season - *snugglesquishes Jonas*)... Metamorphesis is about Nirrti (a Goa'uld for the unknowing) who's using a DNA-splicing machine to alter the genes of people on the planet she's hiding on. She also uses it on a SG-team, Carter and Jonas, after which she is pretty much laying herself at Jonas' feet for being so evolutionized. He'd make a a good king to her queen. For obvious reasons he denies that gift.

                  Full Circle is the one where Anubis destroys Abydos, and everybody there ascends. Daniel's making another one of is his appearances and goes up again Anubis (also a Goa'uld by the way).

                  Just thought you should know.
                  Thanks

                  Ah, Jonas, the forgotten member of SG1. I always liked Jonas. Full Circle was written as a possible series finale too I think, as they changed networks after that?? I could be wrong, I'm remembering something said on a commentary a very long time ago


                  Originally posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
                  Hah. You know funny story about that I was just thinking that most of the few sci-fi pairings that I actively support happen to be doomed romances. I was wondering if it was a coincidence or not. Sparky is one of only around 3 or 4. I didn't read the whole article because there are still shows on there that I want to see but the other two that I'd think of first actually were mentioned in that list.

                  Angel-Cordelia is one of my other favorites, and it actually ended not too dissimilar to John and Elizabeth.

                  The other is John and Aeryn and that one came preety close to being a tragic ending before they unexpectedly got a happy ending.

                  Her comment about Weir and Sheppard is really curious though. I have a feeling a lot of casual fans may have noticed because they were consistently around each other playing off the other. And people saw more than the occasional stab at subtle "intentional" romance in the script.

                  Or maybe I'm way off here because I seriously have a hard time believing that nobody editing the show didn't notice John and Elizabeth, and some of the stuff that was written in just seemed like it was the old "romance teasing" that often makes it's way into TV. It doesn't necessarily prove anything but, I didn't think it was a coincidence that Sheppard had "a big kiss, but not really a real kiss" with both of his females leads over the course the show.
                  They noticed, and they played on it. There's a scene in Misbegotten, written by M & M, meant only to show the passage of time, which is the most overt flirting of the pairing in the entire show. They knew, they just didn't think it would be as popular as it ended up

                  Originally posted by Reiko View Post


                  Great article! It's actually not the first I've seen that addresses the John/Elizabeth relationship as a romance on the show (I recall reading a mention in another article a while back). Goes to show that the relationship's fans are not restricted to loyal viewers on GateWorld's forum.

                  Whoever is keeping track of episode title votes. I really like What Dreams May Come. "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come/When we have shuffled off this mortal coil" -- Hamlet says you have to worry what happens after death and that's something to worry about (my very loose interpretation). It signals uncertainty, maybe in connection to Elizabeth and the uncertainty of her future given the mistrust that her nanites are gone. In a sense, I guess, she has "died" and her return to Atlantis may be a "rebirth" of sorts. To twist the meaning a bit. So, works for me.
                  (Quietus is cool too, but I've always been a fan of multiple-worded episode titles)



                  LOL. I seem to be attracted to the losers, then (in both characters and relationships).

                  Kind of OT response to Kitty.
                  Spoiler:
                  I'm uber MIFFED at last night's episode. They had to kill Renee off? Renee was the best female character on the show since Michelle. It kind of feels like Carson and Elizabeth all over again, except it was so cliche so it wasn't shocking (which was certainly what was intended). Raawr.


                  The article above mentioned "star-crossed". Funny word, is it not? It's stemmed from the word "disaster", believe it or not -- "dis" + "aster" (star).

                  *sigh*.

                  Oh, I do like tragedy when it's done well. It just hasn't been done well as of late.
                  I was going to vote for Quietus, but after reading that, my interpretation is that Quietus is more like a complete closure (a finality, more like a death), whereas the situation ends up being more like a new beginning/new chapter, so my vote is What Dreams May Come
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    Well, after reading other opinions, I change my vote and join the train for "What Dreams May Come"

                    Comment


                      i got mad when
                      Spoiler:
                      renee was killed off
                      and once again jack showed us that even jack bauer can show emotion. i got to admit Joe Flanigan and Kiefer Sutherland really know how to show emotion when the episode calls for it.
                      Last edited by Lt.Colonel John Sheppard; 14 April 2010, 01:08 AM.

                      Comment


                        For the record - I do still like Quietus, but now What Dreams May Come is starting to speak to me.

                        Maybe we could have our Shakespeare experts weigh in on both titles (Reiko started us off) so those of us who don't know the bard as well could decide between the two?
                        sigpic
                        Signature by Erin87

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Reiko View Post


                          And, as shown before, in your other shows. Funny thing I just realised -- SGA was the first fandom that I really shipped anything in heavy-duty. I had liked certain couples in other stories but not to the extent to Sparky.


                          That's me too. I shipped M/S but without the internet couldn't get into it as much. Sparky is the only ship that has drawn me into the fandom and I'll likely never do it again.


                          Love the metaphor. I think too many TV productions and movies try so hard to pull a tearjerker out of their audience but it falls flat because it's predictable, contrived, seems formulated and/or the actual moment doesn't carry enough emotional weight; no katharsis is achieved. It only makes the audience wince or feel cheated. Stargate Atlantis is certainly guilty in this (though I doubt the Elizabeth stuff was meant to be a tearjerker; I'm speaking more of "Sunday".) It doesn't help that the follow-up was not satisfying.

                          I haven't thought enough about what exactly makes a successful tragic twist in a tale and what makes others fall flat. I think if the TPTBs wanted J/E to be tragic they could have succeeded with effort and audience satisfaction. Will consider this.

                          They certainly could have succeeded with Sparky as a tragic ship. But even after all the fan outpouring of excitement and approval after the hug, they stubbornly stuck with their original idea. I don't know what to say about people who just refuse to accept fan approval. Again my lack of logic alarms were going off big time. If you do something that your audience loves and they tell you so, why would you not want to please them more?

                          Originally posted by gateraid View Post

                          They noticed, and they played on it. There's a scene in Misbegotten, written by M & M, meant only to show the passage of time, which is the most overt flirting of the pairing in the entire show. They knew, they just didn't think it would be as popular as it ended up.
                          By Misbegotten they knew. They knew in S2. Let's look at the timeline for a moment. The hug came at the beginning of S2. Assuming they had filmed a goodly portion of that season by the time it aired and it was too late to go back and change anything in those eps, if the hug was just a hug and they never intended to even hint at the Sparky ship, why was S2 so very Sparky? This was the season in which they worked closest together. You even have Conversion coming under that timeline with Caldwell actually mentioning a possible relationship and being written by, guess who, MG. The very person who wrote the hug. Ergo my call of lack of logic.

                          I remember that Epiphany was the first ep filmed after the break because there was discussion of Joe having to grow the beard and them filming it backwards. Alright, so the second half of S2 should have reflected their OMG!noship attitude better. Did it? Well, the kiss didn't convince me. LOL

                          So we always seem to circle back to the fact that they told us one thing and showed us another.

                          And voting on the episode title...so far is What Dreams May Come 3 and Quietus 4. Who hasn't voted?
                          sigpic

                          Visit us at SGA Rising for our version of season six.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                            Heh, same here. I think the closest I ever came before Sparky was John/Delenn on Babylon 5.
                            Spoiler:
                            24's Jack/Renee was approaching that level, but then... well, you know the rest. *headdesk*


                            Honestly, I'm not sure which did it better or worse, either. There were good things and bad things about both shows.
                            Spoiler:
                            Though I have to give 24 the edge in that at least the producers acknowledged Jack/Renee as a legitimate relationship instead of flip-flopping between teasing us with it and trying to pretend it didn't exist, like SGA's producers did with John/Elizabeth.


                            The very fact that the Elizabeth stuff was probably not meant to be a tearjerker just compounds the producers' multiple errors in how they handled it, in my mind. You're right, had they finally sucked it up and admitted that yes, the viewers were right that J/E had the chemistry to be a truly great romance and actively played it as a tragic, doomed-by-cruel-fate love, it could have been marvelous in its pain. Damnit. *pouts*

                            As for a successful tragic twist, I always thought the end of 'Van Helsing' was a real kick in the head.

                            Eh, Wikipedia isn't a dictionary, and it's not a good primary source due to the fact that it can be manipulated edited by non-experts. And there's nothing wrong with Latin names. After all, Sparky is supposed to be the over-educated ship.
                            I do think they recognized the power of the connection, because why else do you pass off two of the three most important post-S3 Elizabeth/John episodes to Carl Binder? You could have given them to random dude writer who would have kept them a little tame--but you handed them to the writer you knew wrote Elizabeth (and John's relationship with her) best--I think to add the pathos in there. Binder had a knack for knowing how John would react personally to stuff regarding Elizabeth. So I do think they did purposefully give it a little bit of recognition, just not overtly.

                            And, of course, our actors taking it to the limit. I mean, in TMC (written by M&M) I'm sure the script direction for Sheppard's seeing Elizabeth for the first time was something like "John & Rodney are surprised" and JF gives us this:

                            Spoiler:










                            Yeah, really just 'surprised'.


                            Originally posted by SMB_BOOKS View Post
                            For the record - I do still like Quietus, but now What Dreams May Come is starting to speak to me.

                            Maybe we could have our Shakespeare experts weigh in on both titles (Reiko started us off) so those of us who don't know the bard as well could decide between the two?
                            Okay, Shakespeare...Here is one interpretation of 'to be or not to be'

                            To be, or not to be : that is the question:
                            Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
                            The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
                            Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them?

                            To live, or to die--that is the question.
                            Do we think it is more noble to live and suffer the ups and down of life, or to fight those wrongs by dying?


                            To die: to sleep;
                            No more; and by a sleep to say we end
                            The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
                            That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
                            Devoutly to be wish'd.

                            To die--to sleep no more. Or rather, if it is a sleep that ends everything we suffer as human beings, that's a sleep we should want.

                            To die, to sleep;
                            To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
                            For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
                            When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
                            Must give us pause: there's the respect
                            That makes calamity of so long life;

                            To die, to sleep. To sleep in Death--and maybe experience something after death--and yet that's the problem with this argument.
                            For when we die, what happens after death--what the afterlife holds for us, after we rid ourselves of our mortality makes us stop and think: and that's what makes us suffer those long, burdensome lives.


                            For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
                            The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
                            The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
                            The insolence of office and the spurns
                            That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
                            When he himself might his quietus make
                            With a bare bodkin?

                            Because who would bear what time does to us, people who can hurt us, people lording over us,
                            the heartache of unrequited love, waiting for legal resolution, the insolence of our leaders and the scorns we patiently suffer from those more unworthy than us--who would choose to live like that, when he could just kill himself instead?


                            who would fardels bear,
                            To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
                            But that the dread of something after death,
                            The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
                            No traveller returns, puzzles the will
                            And makes us rather bear those ills we have
                            Than fly to others that we know not of?
                            Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;

                            Who would bear such burdens, grunting and sweating in life, except for the fear of what lies after death? It is an unknown place that no one can return from or describe, it confuses us and makes us bear our life's burdens, because why would we go to someplace we know nothing of, which might be worse than what we already suffer (hell?)? And so, our ability to contemplate this makes us all cowards.

                            And thus the native hue of resolution
                            Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
                            And enterprises of great pith and moment
                            With this regard their currents turn awry,
                            And lose the name of action.--Soft you now!
                            The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
                            Be all my sins remember'd.

                            And so, the resolution to die is overcome with rational contemplation, and we lose the resolve to act.

                            Look, the fair Ophelia! Lady, in your eyes reflect all the wrongs I have done
                            .

                            Essentially "To Be or Not to Be" muses on whether it makes sense to kill yourself and why we don't do it, when life can stink so badly at points. He basically comes to the conclusion that because nobody knows what lies after death, we're afraid to kill ourselves if we're of rational mind. It's the unknown after death--punishment in an afterlife, or perhaps no afterlife, which we fear the most, even for all the burdens of life.

                            The line "What dreams may come" refers to the potential afterlifes that might exist after death (if you want to see a cool, Dante-esque movie, there is a movie titled the same with Robin Williams that has stunning visuals). It is quite pertinent to what Elizabeth suffered in the number of lives she lived through prior to this. I really like this title, it's one of my favorite lines from the soliloquy, I just think Quietus is more pertinent to the episode, because WDMC has nothing really to do with what the people in the city are doing to fight through the lockdown.

                            The 'quietus' referred to is closer to the dictionary meaning--quietus here refers to a discharge or release from life. I liked Quietus because of all three dictionary definitions and how they can play into the context of this episode:

                            1.a finishing stroke; anything that effectually ends or settles: this can refer to both Elizabeth's desire at one point to end her own life to prevent problems for anyone else; it can also allude to Rodney's/Jeannie's 'curing' Elizabeth and the Pegasus of the problem of the replicator nanites. After this episode, essentially the replicators are no more (though the nanites will be around to affect various things.) But this episode is the 'quietus' of the Asuran replicators.

                            2. discharge or release from life.: At some point in this episode, Elizabeth's desire to die becomes the pivotal part of the episode.

                            3. a period of retirement or inactivity: Can refer to everyone who is trapped during the lockdown. They are all stuck in a 'quietus' where they have to wait for the problem to be fixed.

                            I didn't choose quietus because of the Latin, though it does happen to be Latin. More because it's a pertinent word in the soliloquy. But it gets my vote because I think it fits best.
                            Last edited by Eri13; 14 April 2010, 07:55 AM.
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                              Considering I don't even know how to pronounce Quietus ... it sounds wrong more than it sounds right.

                              I'll have to opt for What Dreams May Come.
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                                Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                                Considering I don't even know how to pronounce Quietus ... it sounds wrong more than it sounds right.

                                I'll have to opt for What Dreams May Come.
                                So, we're now tied at 4 each. Who's brave? And please read the summary of the ep before voting plus the above posts explaining why each title works.
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