Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Screw the Angst Wednesday! (though it looks like the angst bunnies are winning at the moment)

Heehee, glad you didn't blow away, Falcon! Sounds like you had a lot of fun on your trip!

Great vid. The vids that show the angst of one of them losing the other one are the easiest to do, I think because the subject is so strong in canon. Watching that, I was thinking about all the times she thought she lost him only to get the relief of having him come back again. But John was not so lucky. He lost her 3 times and the last time maybe for good. No wonder it completely changed his character.

Even in angst, we're still canon. Gotta love it.

I am irrationally angry with Rodney (for some reason I kinda blame him for it all lol) and until I get past that I can't watch the eps past Lifeline. (I took it all a little more personally than I should have, methinks. It may be almost unhealthy )

I'm still rather pissed at Rodney, too. Not so much anymore for him doing what he did, because hey, he was trying to save his friend. It's more for the fact that even though we keep seeing him beating himself up over what happened, he's never tried to apologize to whatever version of her was present. I suppose we can chalk that up to Rodney's lack of social skills and probably those feelings of shame that are prompting him to beat himself up over it, but still. He's had three chances! Argh.

Tell me about it. *points at self* I've gone through periods of being irrationally angry too, mostly at TPTB. I don't understand to this day and never will why they didn't want Sparky to happen. I don't mean full out RST, I mean just the slow build up continuing to a gradual resolution. Can't they see what's right in front of them. I always go back to that old Marx Brothers line about "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?" Well, my lying eyes saw Sparky, dammit. And I can point it out in multiple episodes with pictures and dialogue and tone of voice and body language. Why can't you see what you are doing and stop telling me you aren't doing it. *fumes*

That's one of the things that really annoys me too. A smart writer/producer is one who is willing to change their plans and work with actor chemistry instead of ignoring it and working against it. That was one of TPTW's fatal mistakes; for the most part, they insisted on following ships that didn't have the support of actor chemistry, and buried the ships that did have actor chemistry supporting them. It's bad writing and lack of understanding and respect for the actors and fans. *growls*

Oooh, discussion questions! I'll have to play with those a little later.

[Southern Red]

I'm back and I'm a redhead again. Woot!

Anyway, you guys are doing a great job on the questions. You've even given me food for thought about John sacrificing a part of himself when he left her. I never thought about it that way but only considered it from the standpoint of his following her wishes. How horrible must it have been for him to leave her, going against every instinct that he had. Wow.

1) I know this is old hat for some of us, but which was the episode that absolutely confirmed your Sparkiness?

My first hint was in the pilot when she toasted him with the champagne and he waved goodbye to her when going through the gate. I kinda went "wuh?" but didn't really think about it again until 38 Minutes when I decided it was too soon for a declaration of feelings. Then came TS/TE and I never doubted again.


2) What do you think is the Sparkiest episode of all, in your opinion, and WHY?

The Real World. The way they connected them even in her subconscious was beyond anything I ever expected them to do. And the way he was the only one who could reach her and then risked infecting himself to save her. Powerful stuff. Which made it even more puzzling when they didn't pursue the ship.


3) We've all grumbled about Common Ground and Conversion not having Sparky closing scenes. What OTHER episode would you have loved to have seen a Sparky moment in (not just the end, but in general) and what would it be?

I agree with everyone else that Sunday was missing a vital Sparky scene. The Return II also needed a scene with her telling John they could stay.


4) Which other character do you think has the best understanding of the John/Elizabeth relationship, and why? Point to a scene in an episode where they confirm their appreciation of the Sparky bond.

Caldwell was the only character who actually mentioned their relationship. Carson treated her like the next of kin in Conversion. Rodney mentioned several times to John that Elizabeth listened to him and there were a couple of occasions that Teyla and Elizabeth exchanged a look like Teyla was promising her to bring him back safe. Conversion is an example of that one. Lorne also hinted at the fact that she worried about him more than the others. Ronon was the only one who appeared clueless. LOL


5) If John and Elizabeth had a conversation about the scene in Lifeline where she orders him to go, and he leaves her in contradiction to his 'mantra', what do you think they would say to each other? What would be his excuse for 'leaving her behind'? What would she do to console (or chastize) him for it? (I'm asking this in part because there WILL be a scene like this in Primum Movens).

She would tell him that he did the right thing and he would tell her he wasn't so sure he'd do the same thing again. He'd not want to worry her but she'd be able to tell that he's been beating himself up about it. Not much would have to be said. They would both just understand.

That said, I'm still mad that they didn't write him as trying harder. I'd even have liked to see him mount a failed rescue, get in big trouble and get threatened with court martial. Carter had it way too easy with him.

And as for the writers not understanding actor chemistry, just look at McKeller. 'Nuff said.

[Probie]

Sparky questions:

1/ I started to have the Sparky disease thanks to season 4. And before that, I always thought John and Elizabeth was the couple because writers of french magazines called them 'The couple".lol I saw hints during "The Storm" and "The eye" but I was not focus on them. So for me, season 4 confirmed the bond between them.

2/ Hard question. For me, I like their relationship because there is a continuity, an evolution. Sparky is too subtle and present in each episode, so it's hard to take just one episode. Let me think....I will take Conversion (for Elizabeth's point of view) and TRW (for John) and Storm in general. Don't yell at me Eri. I will take just one episode. Ok Conversion for "it's better for both of us".

3/ I have to disagree with you. Sunday was a pretty good episode. And I think there is a sweet little moment between them. This scene

Spoiler:

http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...um=308&pos=946

He gaves her a sweet look. Ok my pic is not really good.
I can't find an episode because I have to admit I don't remember all episodes.

4/ Rodney for the same reasons of Drew and Caldwell for Converion and The siege 3....and Carl Binder.lol

5/ Elizabeth will say that it was her order but John will feel guilty all his life.
OR this scene

Spoiler:

John: Well, you know it's not my fault. I received a call by a strange man ' BW'. He didn't give me his real name. He said to me I have to leave you behind or this show will be the Rodney Show and they will forget me.
Elizabeth: BW? I think I know him. It's the guy who killed Carson?
John: Not just him but yes. For your situation, the official reason was "You're a threat for Atlantis. We can't take you with us. You're a replicator" blabla" but the true reason was we are too hot together. They didn't want us together.
Elizabeth: Oh ok. Maybe I'm wrong but left me with those replicators was a threat for Atlantis. I mean me, the leader of Atlantis with many knowledges about this city, I was surrounded by the enemies and alone.....it's also a threat for Atlantis.
John: Oh yes but they thought fans are not very smart and they can't notice this little "mistake". But I'm happy you're here now
*kiss kiss kiss kiss*
Elizabeth: Just a minute John. Never answer a phone call again.
John: Yes madam.
Elizabeth: Now I can show you my new "abilities". Don't forget I'm a replicator now.
*kiss kiss*

I'm a little tired sorry.lol

[Anuna]

My two cents!

1) I know this is old hat for some of us, but which was the episode that absolutely confirmed your Sparkiness?

The Storm/The Eye. I saw the connection ebtween them ever since the beginning, despite a certain cave scene. I thought John and Elizabeth got something going, but I wasn't entirelly convinced until I saw John going batsh*t crazy after Kolya told him he had killed Elizabeth. John's rage actually matched the storm outside. I never thought about it before, but the episode really has a fitting title, not just for the rain pouring on Atlantis.

2) What do you think is the Sparkiest episode of all, in your opinion, and WHY?

Aforementioned two parter - because it solidified Sparky in most people's minds. There are episodes where the connection between John and Elizabeth is so prominent, it (literally) hurts - like TRW, CG, Adrift, Lifeline (where we can see how deeply affected they are by other's faith), but I doubt we would be here discussing this if there weren't for TS/TE in the first place. I think the very nature and most basic dynamic of John - Elizabeth was established back in those two episodes, and not just that; characterizations for both John and Elizabeth were solidified by TS/TE. We saw the lengths each of them would go for Atlantis, or the other.

3) We've all grumbled about Common Ground and Conversion not having Sparky closing scenes. What OTHER episode would you have loved to have seen a Sparky moment in (not just the end, but in general) and what would it be?

As Nepthys said, Sunday. I sorely lacked a Sparky closure after that particular ep. After so many things which were completely out of whack and felt liek someone screwing with my mind, I could have used something that would bring me back to normal. Not that Rodney - Carson scene at the end wasn't sweet and absolutely great, but I needed a scene between john and Elizabeth and exclusively them. However, it seemed that the writer of this crapfest was trying so hard to ignore the sparkly elephant in a tutu dancing through the gateroom.

also, Sparky would make episodes like Outcast or Miller's Crossing SO MUCH BETTER.

4) Which other character do you think has the best understanding of the John/Elizabeth relationship, and why? Point to a scene in an episode where they confirm their appreciation of the Sparky bond.

Rodney. He just knows if he needs something okayed by Elizabeth, then the best way to do it is send John to make puppy dog eyes at her. I also think Carson has fine understanding of their dynamic and bond (think "Conversion"). Let's not forget Jennifer and the way she treated John in "Adrift".

5) If John and Elizabeth had a conversation about the scene in Lifeline where she orders him to go, and he leaves her in contradiction to his 'mantra', what do you think they would say to each other? What would be his excuse for 'leaving her behind'? What would she do to console (or chastize) him for it? (I'm asking this in part because there WILL be a scene like this in Primum Movens).

I don't think he would even try to give her an excuse. he is beaten and torn about it, and hasn't gotten over it, or forgiven himself for leaving her, even if it was her command, even if he knew it was a right thing to do - even if he was willing to let her go. Allowing her life to end, which he was ready to do in Adrift isn't quite the same as leaving her in hands of a cold, cruel enemy. I can't imagine hims aying all that much, but I can vivdly see his face, painful expression you get along with knotted throat and tightness in your chest, when you simply can't say much. Another thing he can't forgive himself is not going after her - even if he respects what was her choice and her decision and knows it wouldn't be wise. Elizabeth would try to be a diplomat, and tell him all the right things, that it was her choice and he did what he was supposed to do, and all that. But deep down inside I can't imagine her not wondering why he didn't come back for her - the human part that hoped and waited and resisted, relying on him to come back - because she knows John and that is what John does.

[Scary Kitty]

Onto the questions!

1) I know this is old hat for some of us, but which was the episode that absolutely confirmed your Sparkiness?

2) What do you think is the Sparkiest episode of all, in your opinion, and WHY?

There's kind of some crossover to these two questions in my mind, so...

While The Storm/The Eye was the first episode that grabbed my attention and made me start thinking of Sparky, I'd say it was Conversion that really, truly said to me that Sparky is canon. The way that Caldwell seemed to zero in on the connection between John and Elizabeth, Beckett looking to Elizabeth to comfort John, Elizabeth being the only one to go see John after he'd shut himself up in his quarters, not once, but twice, all hammered home to me that this was something important that I needed to pay attention to. All of that definitely makes Conversion one of the Sparkiest episodes of all.

3) We've all grumbled about Common Ground and Conversion not having Sparky closing scenes. What OTHER episode would you have loved to have seen a Sparky moment in (not just the end, but in general) and what would it be?

Sunday. Frankly, I would've preferred to see John and Elizabeth having lunch together, but barring that, maybe he tries to get her to join the golf "lesson" or they have a talk about War and Peace, or something.

4) Which other character do you think has the best understanding of the John/Elizabeth relationship, and why? Point to a scene in an episode where they confirm their appreciation of the Sparky bond.

Rodney. Out of all the characters, we see Rodney together with John and Elizabeth the most; not surprising, as Rodney's the head of the science department and thus in Atlantis's chain of command, which means he'd have to be interacting with both Elizabeth and John on a regular basis even if he hadn't been on John's team. Rodney's done a number of things that demonstrate his knowledge and appreciation of the bond between them, but the two that stick in my mind the most are in Trinity, when he tries to convince John to talk to Elizabeth about letting Rodney continue his work with Arcturus, saying, "Elizabeth will listen to you," and of course Adrift and the whole fight that John and Rodney have over reactivating Elizabeth's nanites.

And speaking of Adrift and what came afterward...

5) If John and Elizabeth had a conversation about the scene in Lifeline where she orders him to go, and he leaves her in contradiction to his 'mantra', what do you think they would say to each other? What would be his excuse for 'leaving her behind'? What would she do to console (or chastize) him for it? (I'm asking this in part because there WILL be a scene like this in Primum Movens).

I'm of two minds about what Elizabeth would say/do/think. On the one hand, intellectually, he did what she asked him to do in leaving her behind, and I think we all know that she was most likely thinking she was going to die and didn't expect or want him to risk his life or the lives of others in coming back for her when it would probably be a suicide mission. I'm sure she'd tell him as much following her rescue. On the other hand, emotionally, she's watched him follow that 'leave no one behind' mantra pretty forcefully (Sateda), and she herself has gone above and beyond to save him (Thirty Eight Minutes, Conversion), so why wouldn't he do the same for her?

I think that perhaps just as important as actually going back for her or not is what prompted that decision, namely, how John and the others just seemed to take what they were told about Elizabeth supposedly being "killed" at face value. Repli!Keller told Clone!Weir in TMC that Oberoth had killed the original Elizabeth, and when she told John and the others, John only made a token effort to question it and didn't push when Clone!Weir said she didn't know why Repli!Keller would lie. Maybe they simply accepted it because considering the alternative (that the real Elizabeth was still alive, perhaps being tortured, etc.) was a possibility that was just too painful for them to face. Still... when they infiltrated Asuras in BAMSR, McKay didn't even take the obvious opportunity to go digging through the Replicator database and find out whether or not Repli!Keller's information was true. The same goes for FRANibeth's claim that she was the real Elizabeth, her organic human body now destroyed. They questioned it, but only in the context of seeing Replicator = threat, and not on the issue of whether or not her claim about being the real Elizabeth was actually true or just another Replicator lie.

It's the old saying, 'trust, but verify.' They blindly trusted without ever trying to independently verify the information they were given when opportunities presented themselves. If they had made an effort to try to uncover the truth, perhaps things might have gone very differently and Elizabeth might have been found sooner. Now they'll never know. I wonder if perhaps, once it really had a chance to sink in (so maybe Primum Movens might be too soon, as she's only just awoken) Elizabeth might harbor some resentment over it, that she might not have had to suffer so much if John had followed his instinct to rescue her, instead of his instinct to follow her wishes. I think getting stewed up over such 'what ifs' would be a realistic reaction; she might even feel ashamed to think such things, again, because she knows intellectually that John did the right thing by leaving her behind and not trying to mount a suicidal rescue mission.

ETA: John, no doubt, has probably been twisting in every direction, being eaten by his guilt over not trying to do more and find out for certain if Elizabeth was really "dead" or not, fearing what might happen if he ever did discover the truth, and perhaps a little frozen into inaction because of it. I don't think he'd try to make up any excuses when he finally talked to Elizabeth though. If he really did say anything, he'd probably just try to take all the blame on himself.

Food for thought.

[Southern Red]

I agree with what SK said 100%. John is going to take all the blame on himself. And even after she's found and returned to them, he will still beat himself up over leaving her in the first place. Of course we all know it was the behind the scenes decisions that made the storyline turn out the way it did, but the damage it did to John's basic character was the most annoying thing. And of course it added fuel to the fire of denial that he really cared for her.

[Anuna]

I agree with what SK said 100%. John is going to take all the blame on himself. And even after she's found and returned to them, he will still beat himself up over leaving her in the first place. Of course we all know it was the behind the scenes decisions that made the storyline turn out the way it did, but the damage it did to John's basic character was the most annoying thing. And of course it added fuel to the fire of denial that he really cared for her.

I think you either have to be blind or really resentful to deny he cared and still cares (hello, the line in GitM! "what if one of them decides to stay?" !!!). If you're blind, then you know very little of human relationships and good TV acting, and if you're resentful, you're denying something that's obvious and you see it there but you just wish it wasn't there. If that makes any sense

[Southern Red]

I think you either have to be blind or really resentful to deny he cared and still cares (hello, the line in GitM! "what if one of them decides to stay?" !!!). If you're blind, then you know very little of human relationships and good TV acting, and if you're resentful, you're denying something that's obvious and you see it there but you just wish it wasn't there. If that makes any sense

That makes perfect sense. But someone recently told me I was ignoring the ship that I just don't see. LOL Now if I look at an inkblot and see a butterfly and you look at the same inkblot and see a motorcycle, how is it that you are just ignoring the butterfly? The logic of that attitude escapes me. (It's a butterfly, dammit. LOL) Methinks someone is intolerant, but that may just be me.

[nephtys59]

That makes perfect sense. But someone recently told me I was ignoring the ship that I just don't see. LOL Now if I look at an inkblot and see a butterfly and you look at the same inkblot and see a motorcycle, how is it that you are just ignoring the butterfly? The logic of that attitude escapes me. (It's a butterfly, dammit. LOL) Methinks someone is intolerant, but that may just be me.

It's just the same old story
Reminds me of Star Trek Enterprise times ... our group of Archer/Tpol shippers was considered crazy people who couldn't see the true everlasting love of the other 'ship. To us, a one-night stand and meaningless banter didn't mean "true love", but I was a stupid 'shipper, so what could you expect?

I guess that even with Sheppard/Weir I didn't learn anything, me old stupid fat girl

[Anuna]

That makes perfect sense. But someone recently told me I was ignoring the ship that I just don't see. LOL Now if I look at an inkblot and see a butterfly and you look at the same inkblot and see a motorcycle, how is it that you are just ignoring the butterfly? The logic of that attitude escapes me. (It's a butterfly, dammit. LOL) Methinks someone is intolerant, but that may just be me.

And SGA isn't exactly a Rorscahch. Although Marty G really made an effort to make it that way, and failed spectacularly, because Joe F and Torri H got in his way.

Spoiler:

Sometimes a hug is more than just a 'friendly' hug and we all know what cigar stands for. Nice joke, Sigmund. We don't buy it, lol.

[Southern Red]

And SGA isn't exactly a Rorscahch. Although Marty G really made an effort to make it that way, and failed spectacularly, because Joe F and Torri H got in his way.

Spoiler:

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x130/anuna_81/Siege/bscap0008.jpg

Sometimes a hug is more than just a 'friendly' hug and we all know what cigar stands for. Nice joke, Sigmund. We don't buy it, lol.

Yeah, add a little liplicking and you got yourself a ship.

Spoiler:

[Scary Kitty]

I agree with what SK said 100%. John is going to take all the blame on himself. And even after she's found and returned to them, he will still beat himself up over leaving her in the first place. Of course we all know it was the behind the scenes decisions that made the storyline turn out the way it did, but the damage it did to John's basic character was the most annoying thing. And of course it added fuel to the fire of denial that he really cared for her.

Word. John is not amused.

I think you either have to be blind or really resentful to deny he cared and still cares (hello, the line in GitM! "what if one of them decides to stay?" !!!). If you're blind, then you know very little of human relationships and good TV acting, and if you're resentful, you're denying something that's obvious and you see it there but you just wish it wasn't there. If that makes any sense

I'm with SR; it makes perfect sense. At least, it does if you're a rational, realistic person. And everyone on this thread is, so none of us has to worry about it.

That makes perfect sense. But someone recently told me I was ignoring the ship that I just don't see. LOL Now if I look at an inkblot and see a butterfly and you look at the same inkblot and see a motorcycle, how is it that you are just ignoring the butterfly? The logic of that attitude escapes me. (It's a butterfly, dammit. LOL) Methinks someone is intolerant, but that may just be me.

Nah, it's not just you. It's a damn butterfly.

It's just the same old story
Reminds me of Star Trek Enterprise times ... our group of Archer/Tpol shippers was considered crazy people who couldn't see the true everlasting love of the other 'ship. To us, a one-night stand and meaningless banter didn't mean "true love", but I was a stupid 'shipper, so what could you expect?

I guess that even with Sheppard/Weir I didn't learn anything, me old stupid fat girl

*snickers*

And SGA isn't exactly a Rorscahch. Although Marty G really made an effort to make it that way, and failed spectacularly, because Joe F and Torri H got in his way.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x.../bscap0008.jpg

Sometimes a hug is more than just a 'friendly' hug and we all know what cigar stands for. Nice joke, Sigmund. We don't buy it, lol.

Yeah, baby. There's just no denying actor chemistry. Joe and Torri have got it in spades.

Yeah, add a little liplicking and you got yourself a ship.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...d/huglick3.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...d/huglick2.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...d/huglick1.jpg

Oh, you betcha. It's the Pavlovian response; he finally got to hug the woman he's crushing on, and he wants to kiss her but he can't, so he starts licking his lips to make them nice and moist like they'd be if he had kissed her. Yeah, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[Scary Kitty]

SS6: Just letting the rest of the art department know that I've posted a note about some Ancient language fonts that might be useful for various applications throughout the production. Cheers!

[Falcon Horus]

SS6: Just letting the rest of the art department know that I've posted a note about some Ancient language fonts that might be useful for various applications throughout the production. Cheers!

Knew about Wallpaperman's font-sets - though the Dafont.com fonts are new to me (I think - cause I have a lot of fonts currently on my computer, considering my graphic design duties to the real world).

[Scary Kitty]

Knew about Wallpaperman's font-sets - though the Dafont.com fonts are new to me (I think - cause I have a lot of fonts currently on my computer, considering my graphic design duties to the real world).

*nods* Yeah, I only found the Ancient G fonts about a month ago, though they've apparently been up since late 2008. Just haven't run across them until now. The others I figured more people probably knew about as they've been out longer, but hey, a refresher is a good thing.