Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[nephtys59]

The only moment you point out where I disagree with the 'platonic friendship' argument is, ironically, the kiss in TLG.

Yes, ironically.

SHEPPARD: You're a hopeless romantic, you know that?
WEIR (smiling at him): Well, *you're* just as hopeless, otherwise you wouldn't have agreed.

*those lines* speak for themselves

[SMB_BOOKS]

SR I am so sorry Mother Nature has interrupted your vacation plans. I hope that, even if you lose two days, the remaining ones are so chock full of fun that you have an AMAZING time!

And, hubby isn't on GW, so I'll have to convince him to get on so we can assign him to the set building crew, LOL. Although, he is quite the beer expert (Old Chicago beer tour anyone?) so perhaps he can also assist with product placement if we decide to weave in a little recreational beverage theme in the show. hehehehehe

And, as your entertainment director....
When: Today @ 4pm
Where: Roller-A-Rama
Who: Cast, Crew & Staff of Sparky Season 6
What: Roller Skating Extravaganza (lights, music, appetizers and beverages)
Why: Because it's Monday and SR needs a good long laugh before getting out of town

[Southern Red]

What about the hug (it was scripted or Torri decided on her own)?
The kiss? (that scene wasn't essential for the story to work)
Sheppard carrying Weir in his arms? (not essential)
Sheppard almost crying over weir in Adrift? (the camera stays long on his watery eyes)
Sheppard grieving on the balcony?
Sheppard risking to be nanites-infected to save Weir?
Because, if you put in the script such things, shipping has to be expected.
TPTB simply were not able to write a working relationship between Sheepard and any other female character in the show

I second everything Eri just said. Gero even came on GW to explain himself with the hug. His answer "sometimes a hug is just a hug". LOL

Maybe they did screw with shippers with those scenes not to mention others ships that had their moments also, but their ultimate intention was to put Shep and Teyla together at some point. Until fate intervened in S4 and Paul Mullie put a stop to it. (For example on Bones they have had seriously romantic relationships with other people with both of them. But who thinks they won't get together at some point?) I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm saying that's what they said they were doing. Frankly I think they were shortsighted and didn't watch their own show. But that's just me.

We can argue that John showed deeper emotion over her in Adrift, Lifeline, TMC and GitM but he also was extremely distraught over Rodney in The Shrine and Teyla on several occasions when she was missing or captured. And look at how upset he was over Ronon in Broken Ties and Ford for all of S2. It's all part of the "family" idea to the writers. In fact we Sparky shippers came as quite the surprise back in the day to all of them. Several statements were made by TPTB and actors showing how they thought we were imagining things. But rather than go with a good thing, they stubbornly chose to ignore us.

Our friend probie tells us that in France all the magazines, etc were thinking that Sparky was the chosen ship and wrote about it in articles. But here it was completely the opposite. Interviews with anyone involved with the show in countless magazines always asked "when will Sheppard and Teyla get together?" And the kiss in Conversion was actually talked about extensively as a "turning point" for that ship. John and Teyla were even on the cover of TV Guide looking all hot. At that point everyone assumed it was a done deal. Except us Sparkies who never gave up. Then we saw the actual episode and it wasn't at all what we had expected. Surprise. No ship resolution.

Yes, ironically.

SHEPPARD: You're a hopeless romantic, you know that?
WEIR (smiling at him): Well, *you're* just as hopeless, otherwise you wouldn't have agreed.

*those lines* speak for themselves

You could interpret that as John wanting to help Thalan and Phoebus not that he wanted to be with Elizabeth. In fact he was quite hesitant and looked like he might change his mind at any moment. And he didn't kiss her back. How's that for being Devil's Advocate?

SR I am so sorry Mother Nature has interrupted your vacation plans. I hope that, even if you lose two days, the remaining ones are so chock full of fun that you have an AMAZING time!

And, hubby isn't on GW, so I'll have to convince him to get on so we can assign him to the set building crew, LOL. Although, he is quite the beer expert (Old Chicago beer tour anyone?) so perhaps he can also assist with product placement if we decide to weave in a little recreational beverage theme in the show. hehehehehe

And, as your entertainment director....
When: Today @ 4pm
Where: Roller-A-Rama
Who: Cast, Crew & Staff of Sparky Season 6
What: Roller Skating Extravaganza (lights, music, appetizers and beverages)
Why: Because it's Monday and SR needs a good long laugh before getting out of town

Yay, a going away party. Let's hope I actually go away. *snorts*

[nephtys59]

I second everything Eri just said. Gero even came on GW to explain himself with the hug. His answer "sometimes a hug is just a hug".

Oh yes, in fact Elizabeth hugged all the people coming back from deadly missions all the time

Maybe they did screw with shippers with those scenes not to mention others ships that had their moments also, but their ultimate intention was to put Shep and Teyla together at some point.

Based on what, I really wonder. They didn't have any kind of believable build up, IMHO.

Frankly I think they were shortsighted and didn't watch their own show.

Exactly.

We can argue that John showed deeper emotion over her in Adrift, Lifeline, TMC and GitM but he also was extremely distraught over Rodney in The Shrine and Teyla on several occasions when she was missing or captured. And look at how upset he was over Ronon in Broken Ties and Ford for all of S2. It's all part of the "family" idea to the writers.

Yes, yes, singing: we are family, I've got all my sisters with me

Several statements were made by TPTB and actors showing how they thought we were imagining things. But rather than go with a good thing, they stubbornly chose to ignore us.

Never give the viewers what they wish for, kill Carson, kill Elizabeth, give us Carter-ghost and Woolsey-spineless and screw the series in only a few episodes.
I didn't watch Atlantis mainly for shipping, I'm a SciFi fan first of all and during the last 2 seasons I was going to throw things at the screen just because the new bosses sucked for different reasons. Damn it, I've always been a huge Carter fan in SG1 and then I got only her shadow in Atlantis! "Come on Samantha you can do better than that" <-- I was thinking all the time!

"when will Sheppard and Teyla get together?" And the kiss in Conversion was actually talked about extensively as a "turning point" for that ship.

Turning point? LOL!
Don't even get me started on that kiss.
Looking at Teyla's face, I thought she was so disgusted that she was going to wash her mouth with liters of disinfectant to forget about it. But that's just me, probably.

Except us Sparkies who never gave up. Then we saw the actual episode and it wasn't at all what we had expected. Surprise. No ship resolution.

And thanks God, no Nancy or Larrin ship. No Extinction movie.
Now we're free to write it the right way.

And I like angst too, if it doesn't last for years and years. I'm a fini-shipper, after all.

[Anuna]

And of course, they deny that such an attitude is totally sexist. It's really depressing.



Well, technically, it kinda sorta is impossible. The US Air Force (as well as the rest of the Armed Forces) has regulations in place regarding relationships between military personnel. Though Elizabeth is not military, she may fall under the definition of a civilian contractor working with the military, and if she does, it means that she and John would not be able to have a relationship as long as both remained in their positions of expedition commander and second-in-command.

Obviously, in Season 6 once she's rescued, she'll no longer be in the direct chain of command, which means that she and John will be able to start dating. Eventually. When they both finally stop walking on eggshells around each other.

It's utterly sexist. Everything about that attitude is sexist.

As for chain in command, yes I get that, if we're talking about real people. However this is a TV show, which is meant for fun and i don't look into my shows for 100% realism. What i want is fun and a compelling story, with good actors and interesting characters. If they have such obvious, steaming hot sexual tension going on between them, it would be a huge problem in RL (or not! People are just people); but in TV show it's potential for even more fun. If you know your job well, and your job is to entertain.

I can't really buy "she is his boss, so it's a big no - no" as a valid argument, because the same PTB shipped Keller with McKay. HELLO PROFESIONALISM? Also, same PTB seemed to have this weird idea of Sheppard and certain female team member together (which they dropped later) - again, hello profesionalism? If we're talking realistic approach, then all these ships should be equally "impossible". Booo.

[nephtys59]

I can't really buy "she is his boss, so it's a big no - no" as a valid argument, because the same PTB shipped Keller with McKay. HELLO PROFESIONALISM? Also, same PTB seemed to have this weird idea of Sheppard and certain female team member together (which they dropped later) - again, hello profesionalism? If we're talking realistic approach, then all these ships should be equally "impossible". Booo.

I always wondered what Keller found in McKay and viceversa, and believe me, I loved McKay's character since the first time I watched him in SG1.
But anyway, I wasn't disturbed by their relationship and in the end I was even happy for the two of them.
As to Sheppard and a certain female member of the team, all I could get was some physical attraction at the very beginning, then it was "pure nothingness" to me. How they were thinking to buy me on such relationship, it's a mistery. In fact, I wasn't sold

[Probie]

I'm testing my new avatar.lol I'm trying to put some colors on my drawings especially the Sparky one but it's complicatd. Color of a jumper? of the Gate? Crucial questions I know. And blablabla again.
Bye.lol

[Anuna]

I second everything Eri just said. Gero even came on GW to explain himself with the hug. His answer "sometimes a hug is just a hug". LOL

Maybe they did screw with shippers with those scenes not to mention others ships that had their moments also, but their ultimate intention was to put Shep and Teyla together at some point. Until fate intervened in S4 and Paul Mullie put a stop to it. (For example on Bones they have had seriously romantic relationships with other people with both of them. But who thinks they won't get together at some point?) I'm not saying I agree with them. I'm saying that's what they said they were doing. Frankly I think they were shortsighted and didn't watch their own show. But that's just me.

We can argue that John showed deeper emotion over her in Adrift, Lifeline, TMC and GitM but he also was extremely distraught over Rodney in The Shrine and Teyla on several occasions when she was missing or captured. And look at how upset he was over Ronon in Broken Ties and Ford for all of S2. It's all part of the "family" idea to the writers. In fact we Sparky shippers came as quite the surprise back in the day to all of them. Several statements were made by TPTB and actors showing how they thought we were imagining things. But rather than go with a good thing, they stubbornly chose to ignore us.

Our friend probie tells us that in France all the magazines, etc were thinking that Sparky was the chosen ship and wrote about it in articles. But here it was completely the opposite. Interviews with anyone involved with the show in countless magazines always asked "when will Sheppard and Teyla get together?" And the kiss in Conversion was actually talked about extensively as a "turning point" for that ship. John and Teyla were even on the cover of TV Guide looking all hot. At that point everyone assumed it was a done deal. Except us Sparkies who never gave up. Then we saw the actual episode and it wasn't at all what we had expected. Surprise. No ship resolution.



You could interpret that as John wanting to help Thalan and Phoebus not that he wanted to be with Elizabeth. In fact he was quite hesitant and looked like he might change his mind at any moment. And he didn't kiss her back. How's that for being Devil's Advocate?



Yay, a going away party. Let's hope I actually go away. *snorts*

If Conversion kiss is shippy, then beating someone up is actually a declaration of love. Don't get me start on that again. I'll be accused of being a horrible intolerant person who drives people away from this thread (lol, wail, I am so sorry not.).

Sometimes a hug is just a hug? Just like cigar is only a cigar? Sometimes? Oh, please. If it was a minor, nothing really important, friendly hug, it should have been done differently. There would be no need to explain that all those high voltage looks, violines and camera spinning was actually just friendly. Uh - huh- Yes. Gotcha. If, for example, Brennan hugs Hodgins and kisses him on a forehead, why am I not under an impression that she is in love with him? Oh, yes, consistent writing and writers who actually know what they're doing.

Since I started watching Stargate, I came to believe that SG - writers seem to think that ship and love is uncool. They have this weird, inconsistent, hesitant relationship to writing real relationships. They are bad at buildup. They fail to recognize fan interest and existing on screen possibilities. Sparky being the prime example.

And then they (PTB) were blatantly unfair to fans on several occasions, and TLG and S&R may be the prime examples. Why tease people with that opening scene in S&R if that is never to happen? The episode could have worked without that scene, looking the way it did (luckily, rachel's wig didn't catch fire. it's a small wonder. lol). I think PTB were indeed aware of shipper interest and decided to use it, in the worst possible way. And then nothing. No wonder certain shipper group is rightfully angry.

TLG is an example of stupidity. Yes, Elizabethw asn't herself when she basically asked John to, ahem, be married to her, but John was himself when he agreed. And they wrote it with the kiss because they knew very well how many people wanted it, and how badly. They just decided to play dirty with all of us, and that makes them very bad PTB.

Geez, why am i not surprised that SGA got canceled? *rolls eyes*

[Anuna]

I always wondered what Keller found in McKay and viceversa, and believe me, I loved McKay's character since the first time I watched him in SG1.
But anyway, I wasn't disturbed by their relationship and in the end I was even happy for the two of them.
As to Sheppard and a certain female member of the team, all I could get was some physical attraction at the very beginning, then it was "pure nothingness" to me. How they were thinking to buy me on such relationship, it's a mistery. In fact, I wasn't sold

Heh. All I ever saw in a certain ship was pure nothingess, on romantic level. They have a great friendship vibe and I enjoy that. I enjoy writing that aspect. But ship? IMO, the writers started it all wrong. Instead of cliched, done to death approach of instant UST between underdressed hot alien princess and a hero who had to travel across galaxies to find his true love, they should ahve let them become friends first. I might have even shipped them then. My favorite example of such ship done right is "The Last Samurai".

About Rodney and Keller - well, one can't be someone's doctor and his lover. It's the most unethical thing there is, and yes, it does bother me.

[SGLAB]

*sticks head in* Been awhile since I visited here. My interest in sparky has been coming back somewhat of late I've been writing a little and I created a couple of things. I was playing with an app on my ipod and thought you all might like the results.

[Fionnait]

*hehe* I like the breaking news pic

[Anuna]

*hehe* I like the breaking news pic

Eeeee, me too! Eat your hearts out, PTB!

[Falcon Horus]

Pics on my LJ.

LOOK AT THE PRETTY SNOOOOOOW!!! *bounce*

Sorry about that momentary lapse of sanity - now I shall be sympathetic to you too. I'm sorry about the cancellation of your flight. I'll keep my fingers crossed you'll be able to fly out Tuesday.

And if you would be able to send some of that snow my way... that would be awesome.

Sheppard almost crying over weir in Adrift? (the camera stays long on his watery eyes)

Because, if you put in the script such things, shipping has to be expected.

Like Teyla was all watery eyed over Kate's death... I don't think they intended ship there.

TPTB simply were not able to write a working relationship between Sheppard and any other female character in the show

Luckily for us, we have brilliant fanfic-writers who can write Sheppard with any and all female characters - or two female characters, or three... or... you know what I mean.

*whistles innocently*

And, as your entertainment director....
When: Today @ 4pm
Where: Roller-A-Rama
Who: Cast, Crew & Staff of Sparky Season 6
What: Roller Skating Extravaganza (lights, music, appetizers and beverages)
Why: Because it's Monday and SR needs a good long laugh before getting out of town

[open visual]

[insert 4-legged Lemming on rollerblades]

[close visual]

[cue laughter]

[SGLAB]

Yeah, that one was my favorite too. In fact I'm making my own calendar this year and I used that picture as the picture for February. Although I think I might put the hearts one up for Valentine's day.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday!

I did indeed stay up last night to watch the shuttle launch, and it was awesome!

I know we've talked about this before, but female characters in sci-fi seem to fall into one of a few really broad stereotypes... there's the Alien Warrior Babe, the Logical Scientist Babe, and so on. Elizabeth didn't seem to fall into any of these groups, and therein lies the rub. She was a little more unique, but characters like her do work, and work well, in sci-fi. Babylon 5's Delenn, anyone? So it's frustrating when I've had the experience of watching well-written women in sci-fi, only to be confronted with women who could and should be as well-written, but aren't.

SciFi doesn't need the pairing aspect to be good or, if pairings are wished, can be good *in spite* of them.
Look at Babylon 5, Farscape, Firefly and you'll know what I mean

"In spite of them?" The ships in B5, Farscape and Firefly and the fact that they were actually done well was part of what made those shows so good!

Yes on the bottled water. I imagine that the expedition had to follow the military rules of procurement. God help them. These are the rules that brought us the $600 hammers from a few years ago. Everything goes up for bid and they give the contract to the lowest bidder. Evian must have won. LOL But we don't have to stick to that.

Yes, we shouldn't stick to it. In fact, since this is supposed to be a super top secret project, I would think they'd simply go buy it off the shelf themselves in order to avoid conspicuous spending runups.

There is proof in canon that the Athosians made wine. From Missing. I love this little scene. John is being all Elizabethy and teasing Teyla about having a date and she's all "yes dad, gotta go". And there's talk of wine.

Spoiler:

SHEPPARD (to Teyla): Ooh! Look at you! Got a date?

TEYLA (rolling her eyes): Please! You will contact us if you need us?

SHEPPARD: Oh, we'll be fine. You kids have fun. (To Jennifer) You're gonna love the Athosians.

KELLER: I'm gonna experience my first Tendol Feast.

SHEPPARD: Oh, those are good, but watch out for the, um ... what do you call it?

TEYLA: Ruus wine.

SHEPPARD: Ruus wine. Tasty stuff, but hell of a kick.

TEYLA (smiling): We really should be going.

SHEPPARD: Have fun, kids!

And in a number of eps, Instinct and Reunion come to mind, there is what looks like beer drinking on other planets. Time for some trade I say.

And time for me to go and try to find my sidewalk.

Hmmm... I wonder if someone might sneak some wine grapes into those hydroponics labs...

With fan opinion--most I take with a grain of salt. By the time you get to people sharing opinions on fanfic in a journal setting, you've gotten into the realm of 'diehards' who have very pointed opinions on things. In general, most fans who enjoy a show but don't join forums don't have a select bias towards or against most characters. They may favor one or the other, but they're not sitting around writhing in Elizabeth Weir hate. I've found that most people don't 'hate' characters unless they have a profound love for another character with whom the other character competes (or a beef with the actor, which is silly, because actor does not equal character. Whatever).

Or, they've had a bad experience with fans who defend their favorites to the death. I can say that I've been very turned off of certain characters and ships simply because some of their fans were just intolerable (Ron/Hermione and GSR come to mind immediately). I'm sensible enough not to hate the characters, the relationship or the majority of fans who support them--and I know when to jump ship on a fandom if it's getting too heated. But that doesn't always remove the bad taste from bad experiences.

However, when you are like us (and we are diehards--I mean, how many other 'average' fans go around writing their own version of S6? ) you have to learn how to put up with some who are going to voice opinions unpopular with you. Some people hate Elizabeth. I will never understand why, but then again, I also don't see some of the other ships people support, no matter how much evidence is presented to me. That's just me, and the Elizabeth-haters are just them, and I'm not going to convince them I'm right and they're never going to convince me they are. So I push the 'block' button, ignore them, and go on my sparkalicious way.

Heck, I feel that way about certain characters/ships in Stargate. It's why I've retreated here to the Sparky thread so that it's easier to ignore it and spend my time having fun with all you fine, sane people.

The only moment you point out where I disagree with the 'platonic friendship' argument is, ironically, the kiss in TLG. While I think most Sparkies don't consider it a banner episode because of the Sheyla anvil dropped towards the end, I fully believe they were writing that episode to screw with shippers completely and take advantage of the shipper wars that were ongoing at that time. In that case, I do think the Sparky was scripted, just not the part we generally take as sparky. They wanted to shock-and-awe value of Elizabeth and John kissing to get people riled up, but they didn't look at the background stuff, such as why John agrees to be Thalen. It's that part we typically wave a flag at when taking Sparky into account for TLG.

And we can't even be sure about that supposed "anvil," since it's just as possible that Thalan was lying about Sheppard's "feelings" in order to mess with Teyla's head. By comparison, John was fully in control of himself when he agreed to host Thalan. Funny how that worked out.

You could interpret that as John wanting to help Thalan and Phoebus not that he wanted to be with Elizabeth. In fact he was quite hesitant and looked like he might change his mind at any moment. And he didn't kiss her back. How's that for being Devil's Advocate?

*snorts* Suuuure it was...

Never give the viewers what they wish for, kill Carson, kill Elizabeth, give us Carter-ghost and Woolsey-spineless and screw the series in only a few episodes.
I didn't watch Atlantis mainly for shipping, I'm a SciFi fan first of all and during the last 2 seasons I was going to throw things at the screen just because the new bosses sucked for different reasons. Damn it, I've always been a huge Carter fan in SG1 and then I got only her shadow in Atlantis! "Come on Samantha you can do better than that" <-- I was thinking all the time!

It was the lame duck writing for Carter and Keller that turned me off to both of them in Atlantis. I'm warming up to Keller now, but my eye still starts twitching whenever the subject of Carter is brought up. I really can't blame Amanda Tapping for leaving after one year to go work on Sanctuary, I would've done that, too.

Turning point? LOL!
Don't even get me started on that kiss.
Looking at Teyla's face, I thought she was so disgusted that she was going to wash her mouth with liters of disinfectant to forget about it. But that's just me, probably.

Seriously... I thought the same thing.

It's utterly sexist. Everything about that attitude is sexist.

As for chain in command, yes I get that, if we're talking about real people. However this is a TV show, which is meant for fun and i don't look into my shows for 100% realism. What i want is fun and a compelling story, with good actors and interesting characters. If they have such obvious, steaming hot sexual tension going on between them, it would be a huge problem in RL (or not! People are just people); but in TV show it's potential for even more fun. If you know your job well, and your job is to entertain.

Well, it does make for a nice built-in reason to keep them apart for a little while and ramp up that slow burn before the audience gets it's payoff.

I can't really buy "she is his boss, so it's a big no - no" as a valid argument, because the same PTB shipped Keller with McKay. HELLO PROFESIONALISM?

Eh, kinda... Keller and McKay weren't each other's bosses. They worked together, but neither one of them had any work-related authority over the other. Now, the potential ethical questions over the two of them getting involved and Keller continuing to act as McKay's doctor, instead of handing him over to one of her coworkers...

Also, same PTB seemed to have this weird idea of Sheppard and certain female team member together (which they dropped later) - again, hello profesionalism? If we're talking realistic approach, then all these ships should be equally "impossible". Booo.

And that one was even worse, as that other team member that we're not allowed to speak of is actually on Sheppard's team. It is THE perfect example of why that regulation is in place. Plus, of course, there's the issue of how such a relationship would portray Sheppard totally out of character. He may be a rule breaker on occasion, but he's never broken the rules for his own personal gain, and having him do so just to go out with someone on his team would be the highest violation of his own personal honor.