Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Probie]

Bad day. My boss is killing me. I work all the week and now he gave me all the files of my co-workers who are in vacation. A lot of work for me. I can't wait to be Friday night and go to vacation too. I can't keep my eyes open.lol

Krisrussel: I love your explanation about John. Totally agree.
Eri13: I hope you don't forget me about Exogenesis. I started Mirror, Mirror but it's a little complicated. I don't know if it's because it's in (hard) english or because of the story or because I lack of sleep.

I leave you and I will go to eat something before returning to hell.lol

[Southern Red]

Sorry to hear that
computer problems can totally ruin a day... or two or three...
*crosses fingers for the computer to hold on until the new one has arrived*



*huggles*
No problem, your mom's health is much more important than keeping in touch with the crazy bunch that we are.
I hope she'll be ok.



*kicks YouTube*
I can't see it
"This video is not available in your country due to copyright restrictions."




*claps enthusiastically then waits impatiently*

Stupid restrictions. Okay, if you can find it somewhere else, it's worth a listen. It's Love by Sugarland. Here are the lyrics.

Spoiler:

"Love"

Is it the face of a child
Is it the thrill of danger
Is it the kindness we see in the eyes of a stranger
Is is more than faith
Is is more than hope
Is is waiting for us at the end of our rope

[Chorus:]
I say, it's love
I say, it's love

Is it the one you call home
Is it the Holy Land
Is is standing right here holding your hand
Is it just like the movies
Is it rice and white lace
Is it the feeling I get when I wake to your face

[Repeat Chorus]

Is it the first summer storm
Is it the colors of fall
Is it having so little
And yet having it all
Is it one in a million
Is it a change to belong
Is it standing right here singing this song

[Repeat Chorus 4x]

Is it a veil or a cross
Is it the poet's gift
Is it the face that has launched over thousands of ships

Is it making you laugh
Is it letting you cry
Is it where we believe that we go when we die
Is it how you were made
Is it your mother's ghost
Is it the wish that I'm wishing for you life, for your life, for your life the most

Yes, you'll wait for the Vegas questions a bit more. I'm still at my friend's in Zagreb and will leave for a bus shortly.

God. That was the best concert I've seen. They even made me cry. My friend took pics. I'll share a few, if you want me to.

Hurry. I have lots to say.

Ok, Sparkies, this has been milling around in my head for quite some time now and when I lay in bed this morning, I finally figured it out.
Remember the discussion we had about John not going to the Academy because of his laid-back attitude?
I think he could have gone to the Academy.
Wait, let me finish...
I think it's what happened in Afghanistan that changed him and his attitude towards his superiors.
We know that he's been in black-ops (or whatever it's called) because of what he pulled off in tS/tE (a regular pilot could never have pulled that off) and I honestly don't think they let someone with a laid-back, frak-my-superiors, attitude into a black-ops mission or into black-ops training, no matter how good he/she is.
I think that at one point, he really was a poster boy for the perfect soldier, but when he saw in Afghanistan that his superiors had no problem with sacrificing the lives of good soldiers who could be saved, something in him snapped and he became the John we all know. Laid-back, completely sarcastic and snarky with absolutely no respect for his superiors.
So, that's what I think about it... let's get this discussion going

This is a very interesting supposition. Possible but not likely. I know people who went to the academy and I know special ops people. The first group is more varied. Example. A high school friend of my son's who was just a bit quirky. Disorganized, smart, snarky...hmmm. sound familiar? The academy trained him to be a good officer but personality wise he's still the same. His training, however, kicks in when he needs it and he does what has to be done. A lot like John. But disobey a direct order. No, he wouldn't unless someone's life was at stake. Hmm again.

The special ops guys I know, and there are several who do things in units that don't officially exist, are even more like John. Laid back, good sense of humor every one of them, loving family men with yards and kids. They're not muscle bound Rambo's. In fact you'd never pick them out of a crowd as being anything special. Duh. That's why they are able to blend in with other cultures so well. Disobeying an order and thinking too much in a combat situation will get these men killed. They undergo arduous training not to think but to act by instinct. So they are less likely to disobey a direct order. Again, however, a special case like John was in might make the difference. This is definitely a good plot bunny.

Here's an additional thought. I know a man who dropped out of "spy school" because he couldn't take the psychological pressure. There's a high suicide rate among operatives for those secret organizations. Hmmm a third time.

[Eri13]

.... more than 2000 screencaps (hey I was thorough!)

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWW...

Oh guys. I can't sleep. I think I'm going to commit murder. My neighbor is killing me. He does karaoke. He sings not well. I want to go in his house and beat him. I'm a little violent but I worked all the day. I have just this night to try to sleep and I can't. It's almost 5pm. I'm so pissed.
I think I will read a sparky fic to try to relax myself.
I'm so tired and my headache is still here.
Is it serious of I kill my neighbor?lol

Awww...I'm sorry, but I have to admit that's terribly funny.

Good afternoon Sparkies

Sorry for being off the forum lately, it's just that me and my family are helping my mom preparing for her surgury tomorrow morning and most likely I'll not be here for a while with helping my mom while she is recovering. And I've been putting off my summer work which only just resently just started working on that I have to finish before school starts in a month. So I have my hands full, but if I have time I'll go back and catch up what I missed.

See you later

Prayers to you, your Mom and your family. I hope everything goes well. Good luck with your work.

Bad day. My boss is killing me. I work all the week and now he gave me all the files of my co-workers who are in vacation. A lot of work for me. I can't wait to be Friday night and go to vacation too. I can't keep my eyes open.lol

Krisrussel: I love your explanation about John. Totally agree.
Eri13: I hope you don't forget me about Exogenesis. I started Mirror, Mirror but it's a little complicated. I don't know if it's because it's in (hard) english or because of the story or because I lack of sleep.

I leave you and I will go to eat something before returning to hell.lol

I will try not to forget tonight. I'm writing a post it note for my computer right now.

QUESTION: Given the brilliant job by Anuna on Vegas, and that questions are coming today, when would you guys like the Vengeance recap/discussion?

I unfortunately did not get to watch First Strike (and hence have not watched Vegas yet. It's not me slacking, but I need something to motivate me to watch First Strike--with Elizabeth being blown through the gateroom--otherwise I'll procrastinate and let months pass.)

I actually opted not to continue with FS because I enjoyed Vengeance a bit more than I thought I would and didn't want to ruin the vibes with sad stuff.

So I need to farm pictures, but otherwise my Vengeance discussion is pretty good to go--let me know when you'd like it (so we have plenty of time to digest 'Nuna's Vegas master recap) and I'll work to deliver.

I will watch First Strike soon, perhaps tonight, so I can jump into the Vegas goodness.

[Scary Kitty]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday!

Eri, I think maybe give a day or two while Anuna gets her Vegas discussion questions up would be good, then post the Vengeance recap. And oh, I so understand the not wanting to ruin the good mood after watching Vengeance by watching FS. Eeep.

*huggles Probie* Sorry your boss is being such a pain.

Ok, Sparkies, this has been milling around in my head for quite some time now and when I lay in bed this morning, I finally figured it out.
Remember the discussion we had about John not going to the Academy because of his laid-back attitude?
I think he could have gone to the Academy.
Wait, let me finish...
I think it's what happened in Afghanistan that changed him and his attitude towards his superiors.
We know that he's been in black-ops (or whatever it's called) because of what he pulled off in tS/tE (a regular pilot could never have pulled that off) and I honestly don't think they let someone with a laid-back, frak-my-superiors, attitude into a black-ops mission or into black-ops training, no matter how good he/she is.
I think that at one point, he really was a poster boy for the perfect soldier, but when he saw in Afghanistan that his superiors had no problem with sacrificing the lives of good soldiers who could be saved, something in him snapped and he became the John we all know. Laid-back, completely sarcastic and snarky with absolutely no respect for his superiors.
So, that's what I think about it... let's get this discussion going

Oooooh, I like this idea. Normally I'm with SR that it's not very likely John went to the Academy, but this certainly sounds possible.

Good points! I agree, partially - he may have been "better", more likely to obey commands, but he was always a rebel in his head. John is way too smart to simply follow without thinking about consequences, which is what led him to disobey his commander in Afg. I think that is the precise reason why Elizabeth prefers him as the military commander - he thinks. He uses his heart and his head, but ultimately, both are in the right place, he is loyal to Atlantis.

Gosh, you may have given me a plot bunny. You know I need those.

A plot bunny and something to think about in terms of John's development, and what Elizabeth sees in him. Good catch!

This is a very interesting supposition. Possible but not likely. I know people who went to the academy and I know special ops people. The first group is more varied. Example. A high school friend of my son's who was just a bit quirky. Disorganized, smart, snarky...hmmm. sound familiar? The academy trained him to be a good officer but personality wise he's still the same. His training, however, kicks in when he needs it and he does what has to be done. A lot like John. But disobey a direct order. No, he wouldn't unless someone's life was at stake. Hmm again.

The special ops guys I know, and there are several who do things in units that don't officially exist, are even more like John. Laid back, good sense of humor every one of them, loving family men with yards and kids. They're not muscle bound Rambo's. In fact you'd never pick them out of a crowd as being anything special. Duh. That's why they are able to blend in with other cultures so well. Disobeying an order and thinking too much in a combat situation will get these men killed. They undergo arduous training not to think but to act by instinct. So they are less likely to disobey a direct order. Again, however, a special case like John was in might make the difference. This is definitely a good plot bunny.

Here's an additional thought. I know a man who dropped out of "spy school" because he couldn't take the psychological pressure. There's a high suicide rate among operatives for those secret organizations. Hmmm a third time.

*flailing like mad* Gah! More food for thought! And my Big Bang plot bunny is perking up and looking very, very hungry! Which is good, since the poor thing was pouting that I couldn't play with it yesterday due to the damn computer fiasco.

[Anuna]

Guys, how about a Sparky fanmix made entirely of U2 songs? Any takers?

[Southern Red]

WOWWWWWWWWWWWWW...



Awww...I'm sorry, but I have to admit that's terribly funny.



Prayers to you, your Mom and your family. I hope everything goes well. Good luck with your work.



I will try not to forget tonight. I'm writing a post it note for my computer right now.

QUESTION: Given the brilliant job by Anuna on Vegas, and that questions are coming today, when would you guys like the Vengeance recap/discussion?

I unfortunately did not get to watch First Strike (and hence have not watched Vegas yet. It's not me slacking, but I need something to motivate me to watch First Strike--with Elizabeth being blown through the gateroom--otherwise I'll procrastinate and let months pass.)

I actually opted not to continue with FS because I enjoyed Vengeance a bit more than I thought I would and didn't want to ruin the vibes with sad stuff.

So I need to farm pictures, but otherwise my Vengeance discussion is pretty good to go--let me know when you'd like it (so we have plenty of time to digest 'Nuna's Vegas master recap) and I'll work to deliver.

I will watch First Strike soon, perhaps tonight, so I can jump into the Vegas goodness.

I'd say wait until we thoroughly digest Vegas. I can only concentrate on one thing at a time. *pokes Anuna*

[Anuna]

*is poked*

Okay, I'm on it.

[Eri13]

Stupid restrictions. Okay, if you can find it somewhere else, it's worth a listen. It's Love by Sugarland. Here are the lyrics.

Spoiler:

"Love"

Is it the face of a child
Is it the thrill of danger
Is it the kindness we see in the eyes of a stranger
Is is more than faith
Is is more than hope
Is is waiting for us at the end of our rope

[Chorus:]
I say, it's love
I say, it's love

Is it the one you call home
Is it the Holy Land
Is is standing right here holding your hand
Is it just like the movies
Is it rice and white lace
Is it the feeling I get when I wake to your face

[Repeat Chorus]

Is it the first summer storm
Is it the colors of fall
Is it having so little
And yet having it all
Is it one in a million
Is it a change to belong
Is it standing right here singing this song

[Repeat Chorus 4x]

Is it a veil or a cross
Is it the poet's gift
Is it the face that has launched over thousands of ships

Is it making you laugh
Is it letting you cry
Is it where we believe that we go when we die
Is it how you were made
Is it your mother's ghost
Is it the wish that I'm wishing for you life, for your life, for your life the most

Hurry. I have lots to say.



This is a very interesting supposition. Possible but not likely. I know people who went to the academy and I know special ops people. The first group is more varied. Example. A high school friend of my son's who was just a bit quirky. Disorganized, smart, snarky...hmmm. sound familiar? The academy trained him to be a good officer but personality wise he's still the same. His training, however, kicks in when he needs it and he does what has to be done. A lot like John. But disobey a direct order. No, he wouldn't unless someone's life was at stake. Hmm again.

The special ops guys I know, and there are several who do things in units that don't officially exist, are even more like John. Laid back, good sense of humor every one of them, loving family men with yards and kids. They're not muscle bound Rambo's. In fact you'd never pick them out of a crowd as being anything special. Duh. That's why they are able to blend in with other cultures so well. Disobeying an order and thinking too much in a combat situation will get these men killed. They undergo arduous training not to think but to act by instinct. So they are less likely to disobey a direct order. Again, however, a special case like John was in might make the difference. This is definitely a good plot bunny.

Here's an additional thought. I know a man who dropped out of "spy school" because he couldn't take the psychological pressure. There's a high suicide rate among operatives for those secret organizations. Hmmm a third time.

I don't know much about the military or the military mentality, so I can't weigh in well...

Considering John's 'punishment' for disobeying, they treated his actions very severally. Just thinking aloud, now, here's what we know about John...

- Younger son of a wealthy businessman
- Did not get along with his father (black sheep of the family?)
- Considered a rebel by his elder, businessman-like brother
- Something happened to his Mom that affected him
- Was married
- Marriage failed because he was so secretive about his job
- Don't know about where he went to school, how he got in the military or what his career was like pre-Afghanistan.
- Know he was a good black ops operative based on his abilities in Pegasus
- Also know he has a 'no holds barred' side based on actions in The Eye and Miller's Crossing. He could act on instinct and kill without much thought if pushed into it.

Just based on this, I could see John joining the military in rebellion against what he'd been raised with--the corporate, silver spoon-type life. He was the unhappy rich kid. The military appealed to him because it's very much the opposite of that. He's able to use his strengths--his intelligence, his dedication, his athleticism--to great advantage here. And maybe initially he's good at following orders, because I have a sense that his father was probably pretty strict with his sons. Perhaps strict, but perhaps also detached, which is why John has a hard time with him.

However, there was something in John that made it incredibly difficult to obey when a life (or more specifically, a life he cared about) was threatened. So he's a great soldier until something comes up that's just too difficult for him to ignore. Maybe everything that caused him to rebel against his father's way of life--not wanting to be the blue blood son, the Vice-President of the company, etc--centered around his losing someone valuable because he was forced to live a particular kind of way (Mom, maybe?)

I could see him being disdainful of people like Sumner and Caldwell and Ellis because they're a bit too much like Dad--most of those guys, remember, already treat John like a pariah because of his black mark--and we don't get to see how John treated superiors before he disobeyed. Maybe he was obedient to a point, but once he'd broken the rules, his superiors assumed he was a loose cannon, just like, perhaps, his father did. He was the black sheep. So his snarky attitude towards Sumner, etc, are the result of his biting back, maybe in the same way he bit back at his father.

Not a good thing as a special ops operative--but great for Elizabeth Weir, who also thinks with her heart. We see shades of the obedient John at times, but eventually he embraces that part of him that 'leaves no one behind' because that works for what she's established in Atlantis. And Elizabeth isn't his father, she's a leader who respects his abilities and who he is as a person while still demanding excellence. It's why they worked and fit.

[Eri13]

Good morning, Sparkies! Happy Canon Monday!

Eri, I think maybe give a day or two while Anuna gets her Vegas discussion questions up would be good, then post the Vengeance recap. And oh, I so understand the not wanting to ruin the good mood after watching Vengeance by watching FS. Eeep.

I'd say wait until we thoroughly digest Vegas. I can only concentrate on one thing at a time. *pokes Anuna*

Right-o! Actually, this is good--I might be able to write up Vengeance now on my spare time rather than during the day. Sorry I can't participate more actively with Vegas discussion today/tomorrow but I will try to watch it by the end of the week.

[Anuna]

Okay, guys, after that concert yesterday and with the current state of sleep deprivation, this is the best I could come up with. Feel free to add more questions!


Here’s a set of Vegas – related questions for the discussion.


1. “Vegas” is the only episode of SGA dealing with real AU – meaning, the story is set in a universe different than the one we’re used to. Furthermore, the AU is wrapped up into homage to CSI Las Vegas. Did you enjoy this setting and the different approach to SGA?

2. Did you find the story of “Vegas” and the AU setting believable?

3. In the “Vegas” recap I mentioned that AU’s are meant for playing with “what if” scenarios, while keeping the characters true to themselves. Do you think that Robert C. Cooper succeeded in that mission (to present us the same characters in different life circumstances)?

4. RCC decided to leave out Teyla and Ronon and didn’t bring them into this story. What is your view of this decision? Did RCC make a mistake for not including these two characters?

5. In your opinion, did we learn anything new about our regular John Sheppard with the help of this episode?

6. Are there elements in “Vegas” you find unconvincing, and why?

7. We learn that there is a Wraith on Earth, and he is living undercover while trying to accomplish his plan – send a message to Pegasus Galaxy through subspace. Did you find the Wraith plot believable?

8. What are your three favorite things about this episode?

9. What do you think made John turn around at the end and drive to stop the Wraith?

10. Finally, RCC treated us with the ending we were never before given on SGA – he killed off the series lead, John Sheppard himself. How did you feel about the ending? Should he have done it differently and let him live?

And a tentative Sparky bonus:

11. Do you think this episode is Sparky relevant at all?

12. Does the idea of Elizabeth being the nurse John was in love with make any sense to you?

13. In your own words, what does this episode tell us about Sparky and our regular John’s bond to Elizabeth? Does it tell us anything at all?

[Regularamanda]

I finally got around to watching GitM (spoilered because I'm not sure they're supposed to be out of spoilers or not )

Spoiler:

I loved the Sparky in it, and the actor that played Fran did an excellent job I was very impressed.

John looked devestated at the end *sniff*

And to be in almost seemed like it was after John said that she wasn't Elizabeth that she made the decision to leave/die. *more sniffs*

Now I'm depressed

[Southern Red]

I don't know much about the military or the military mentality, so I can't weigh in well...

Considering John's 'punishment' for disobeying, they treated his actions very severally. Just thinking aloud, now, here's what we know about John...

- Younger son of a wealthy businessman
- Did not get along with his father (black sheep of the family?)
- Considered a rebel by his elder, businessman-like brother
- Something happened to his Mom that affected him
- Was married
- Marriage failed because he was so secretive about his job
- Don't know about where he went to school, how he got in the military or what his career was like pre-Afghanistan.
- Know he was a good black ops operative based on his abilities in Pegasus
- Also know he has a 'no holds barred' side based on actions in The Eye and Miller's Crossing. He could act on instinct and kill without much thought if pushed into it.

Just based on this, I could see John joining the military in rebellion against what he'd been raised with--the corporate, silver spoon-type life. He was the unhappy rich kid. The military appealed to him because it's very much the opposite of that. He's able to use his strengths--his intelligence, his dedication, his athleticism--to great advantage here. And maybe initially he's good at following orders, because I have a sense that his father was probably pretty strict with his sons. Perhaps strict, but perhaps also detached, which is why John has a hard time with him.

However, there was something in John that made it incredibly difficult to obey when a life (or more specifically, a life he cared about) was threatened. So he's a great soldier until something comes up that's just too difficult for him to ignore. Maybe everything that caused him to rebel against his father's way of life--not wanting to be the blue blood son, the Vice-President of the company, etc--centered around his losing someone valuable because he was forced to live a particular kind of way (Mom, maybe?)

I could see him being disdainful of people like Sumner and Caldwell and Ellis because they're a bit too much like Dad--most of those guys, remember, already treat John like a pariah because of his black mark--and we don't get to see how John treated superiors before he disobeyed. Maybe he was obedient to a point, but once he'd broken the rules, his superiors assumed he was a loose cannon, just like, perhaps, his father did. He was the black sheep. So his snarky attitude towards Sumner, etc, are the result of his biting back, maybe in the same way he bit back at his father.

Not a good thing as a special ops operative--but great for Elizabeth Weir, who also thinks with her heart. We see shades of the obedient John at times, but eventually he embraces that part of him that 'leaves no one behind' because that works for what she's established in Atlantis. And Elizabeth isn't his father, she's a leader who respects his abilities and who he is as a person while still demanding excellence. It's why they worked and fit.

Very good points and lots of food for thought. I think JM said John was the older brother which makes his attitude even more poignant for his family. Older bro expected to follow in Dad's footsteps and take over the company rebels and completely separates himself from the family. Must have taken big brass ones.

I wonder when the final break came. Something to do with his mother's death? And we learned that his dad didn't hate him and wanted to see him in Outcast which made his death very much sadder for John.

I have to disagree that we know he was in black ops. We know he had special training, maybe rangers or something comparable but we don't know he was in black ops. To do that he would probably have been in Intelligence. They don't just pick any old pilot and give him that kind of training. My reasoning is based on his fair to poor hand to hand combat skills. He's unusually good with weapons for a pilot and pretty good with a knife but to be special ops he would have to be able to kill with his bare hands and fight off a larger opponent. He can't even beat Teyla with sticks. He seems to be a product of mostly bad writing that plays fast and loose with reality so I don't think we can expect logic.

I think most of John's attitude is fueled by his poor self image. It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. He expects to screw up. He expects his superiors to look at him like Sumner did. Caldwell, I think, came to respect him in time. "The chain of command is sometimes fuzzy on Atlantis" is a very interesting comment. Caldwell at that time had not spent very much time with them, yet he had picked up on the "dual" leadership of Weir and Sheppard and because it was not in keeping with his strict military ideas, he didn't like it. He also saw that John treated those under his command on a more equal basis with a lot less protocol than Caldwell would have done. Yet later on in Trinity and First Strike, John sides with the military. Everett in Siege 3 came to see that John was right and I think Ellis respected him even though he tried to manipulate him and get him to turn against Elizabeth. Sam and Woolsey certainly respected him and trusted his judgment.

Wasn't it in Hot Zone that John explained his attitude by saying that Elizabeth sometimes didn't see things the way he did? I think John trusts his own judgment more than anyone else's. His lack of trust in certain situations depends on who is making the decision and what their motivation is. Any lack of trust of Weir, for example, comes from her lack of knowledge of and belief in the military way of doing things and just coming from a completely different mind set than John.

And I think John respected and admired both O'Neill , General Hammond and General Landry. He sure looked pained in Return I when he disobeyed Landry. LOL

John is certainly an enigma. He's a mess of contradictions that sadly never got untangled.

[Anuna]

I don't know much about the military or the military mentality, so I can't weigh in well...

Considering John's 'punishment' for disobeying, they treated his actions very severally. Just thinking aloud, now, here's what we know about John...

- Younger son of a wealthy businessman
- Did not get along with his father (black sheep of the family?)
- Considered a rebel by his elder, businessman-like brother
- Something happened to his Mom that affected him
- Was married
- Marriage failed because he was so secretive about his job
- Don't know about where he went to school, how he got in the military or what his career was like pre-Afghanistan.
- Know he was a good black ops operative based on his abilities in Pegasus
- Also know he has a 'no holds barred' side based on actions in The Eye and Miller's Crossing. He could act on instinct and kill without much thought if pushed into it.

Just based on this, I could see John joining the military in rebellion against what he'd been raised with--the corporate, silver spoon-type life. He was the unhappy rich kid. The military appealed to him because it's very much the opposite of that. He's able to use his strengths--his intelligence, his dedication, his athleticism--to great advantage here. And maybe initially he's good at following orders, because I have a sense that his father was probably pretty strict with his sons. Perhaps strict, but perhaps also detached, which is why John has a hard time with him.

However, there was something in John that made it incredibly difficult to obey when a life (or more specifically, a life he cared about) was threatened. So he's a great soldier until something comes up that's just too difficult for him to ignore. Maybe everything that caused him to rebel against his father's way of life--not wanting to be the blue blood son, the Vice-President of the company, etc--centered around his losing someone valuable because he was forced to live a particular kind of way (Mom, maybe?)

I could see him being disdainful of people like Sumner and Caldwell and Ellis because they're a bit too much like Dad--most of those guys, remember, already treat John like a pariah because of his black mark--and we don't get to see how John treated superiors before he disobeyed. Maybe he was obedient to a point, but once he'd broken the rules, his superiors assumed he was a loose cannon, just like, perhaps, his father did. He was the black sheep. So his snarky attitude towards Sumner, etc, are the result of his biting back, maybe in the same way he bit back at his father.

Not a good thing as a special ops operative--but great for Elizabeth Weir, who also thinks with her heart. We see shades of the obedient John at times, but eventually he embraces that part of him that 'leaves no one behind' because that works for what she's established in Atlantis. And Elizabeth isn't his father, she's a leader who respects his abilities and who he is as a person while still demanding excellence. It's why they worked and fit.

I love your insight and explanation. I have a feeling that John felt he was "in between" his parents, loved and cared for his Mom, but always wanted approval from his Dad - which was hard to get, of course. I have a feeling that, beside being an emotionally detached man, John's father wanted John to be something he wasn't, or didn't care for. He probably didn't have enough understanding for John, who needed a different kind of encouragement (different kind than worked for David, different kind than his father was used to giving) - to help him reach his own kind of excellence. Something made John rebel, perhaps the way his father behaved while John's mom was sick (that's my speculation, that she was sick).

John ended up in military, and it worked well until he felt and needed he had to act differently than the military wanted him. They labeled him a black sheep and his superiors, the same archetypes like his father, treated him the same way his father did.

Then came Elizabeth who found the right way to motivate John.

[Eri13]

Very good points and lots of food for thought. I think JM said John was the older brother which makes his attitude even more poignant for his family. Older bro expected to follow in Dad's footsteps and take over the company rebels and completely separates himself from the family. Must have taken big brass ones.

I wonder when the final break came. Something to do with his mother's death? And we learned that his dad didn't hate him and wanted to see him in Outcast which made his death very much sadder for John.

I have to disagree that we know he was in black ops. We know he had special training, maybe rangers or something comparable but we don't know he was in black ops. To do that he would probably have been in Intelligence. They don't just pick any old pilot and give him that kind of training. My reasoning is based on his fair to poor hand to hand combat skills. He's unusually good with weapons for a pilot and pretty good with a knife but to be special ops he would have to be able to kill with his bare hands and fight off a larger opponent. He can't even beat Teyla with sticks. He seems to be a product of mostly bad writing that plays fast and loose with reality so I don't think we can expect logic.

I think most of John's attitude is fueled by his poor self image. It's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. He expects to screw up. He expects his superiors to look at him like Sumner did. Caldwell, I think, came to respect him in time. "The chain of command is sometimes fuzzy on Atlantis" is a very interesting comment. Caldwell at that time had not spent very much time with them, yet he had picked up on the "dual" leadership of Weir and Sheppard and because it was not in keeping with his strict military ideas, he didn't like it. He also saw that John treated those under his command on a more equal basis with a lot less protocol than Caldwell would have done. Yet later on in Trinity and First Strike, John sides with the military. Everett in Siege 3 came to see that John was right and I think Ellis respected him even though he tried to manipulate him and get him to turn against Elizabeth. Sam and Woolsey certainly respected him and trusted his judgment.

Wasn't it in Hot Zone that John explained his attitude by saying that Elizabeth sometimes didn't see things the way he did? I think John trusts his own judgment more than anyone else's. His lack of trust in certain situations depends on who is making the decision and what their motivation is. Any lack of trust of Weir, for example, comes from her lack of knowledge of and belief in the military way of doing things and just coming from a completely different mind set than John.

And I think John respected and admired both O'Neill , General Hammond and General Landry. He sure looked pained in Return I when he disobeyed Landry. LOL

John is certainly an enigma. He's a mess of contradictions that sadly never got untangled.

He was, wasn't he? And I know JF wanted that mess really untangled and they only barely scratched the surface.

See, I'm no good at military terms--when I said 'black ops' I was intending to say 'covert operations'--in other words, he was off flying secret missions he couldn't tell anyone about.

I never would have thought of Grant as 'younger'. But then Joe is just amazing looking for his age.

I think a lot of the military didn't know how to take John and Elizabeth. Jack and Sam sort of 'got it' maybe because of what they had to work with but the others were baffled. Sheppard was a black mark and Elizabeth was a civilian, yet when confronted they put up a united front--that's why I like when John stands up for Elizabeth with Everett. That was the final 'foot down' of where his loyalties lay. At that point, the military knew that if they were going to override Weir, they needed Sheppard's approval. Hence our First Strike situation, with them at odds.

But you're right, John did things his way. Interesting enough, one thing I'll point out in my Vengeance discussion is a really cool scene between Ronon and John where Ronon questions John's authority. I completely forgot it was in there, but it's basically Ronon telling John what for and John just kind of stands there and takes it--but the expression he makes is one of a guy not used to being challenged. Normally he's so 'right' in his choices that he's rarely challenged by anyone else (Weir supporting him rescuing Ronon in Sateda, etc) but when he does it's interesting.

I love your insight and explanation. I have a feeling that John felt he was "in between" his parents, loved and cared for his Mom, but always wanted approval from his Dad - which was hard to get, of course. I have a feeling that, beside being an emotionally detached man, John's father wanted John to be something he wasn't, or didn't care for. He probably didn't have enough understanding for John, who needed a different kind of encouragement (different kind than worked for David, different kind than his father was used to giving) - to help him reach his own kind of excellence. Something made John rebel, perhaps the way his father behaved while John's mom was sick (that's my speculation, that she was sick).

John ended up in military, and it worked well until he felt and needed he had to act differently than the military wanted him. They labeled him a black sheep and his superiors, the same archetypes like his father, treated him the same way his father did.

Then came Elizabeth who found the right way to motivate John.

Yeah, I didn't want to start on the 500-page novel of what Elizabeth's acceptance meant or I might not get any real work done.

[Southern Red]

I love your insight and explanation. I have a feeling that John felt he was "in between" his parents, loved and cared for his Mom, but always wanted approval from his Dad - which was hard to get, of course. I have a feeling that, beside being an emotionally detached man, John's father wanted John to be something he wasn't, or didn't care for. He probably didn't have enough understanding for John, who needed a different kind of encouragement (different kind than worked for David, different kind than his father was used to giving) - to help him reach his own kind of excellence. Something made John rebel, perhaps the way his father behaved while John's mom was sick (that's my speculation, that she was sick).

John ended up in military, and it worked well until he felt and needed he had to act differently than the military wanted him. They labeled him a black sheep and his superiors, the same archetypes like his father, treated him the same way his father did.

Then came Elizabeth who found the right way to motivate John.

Or did David just go along with his dad's wishes to make up for John's disobedience? That might explain some of his hostility toward John. Hmm?

I think a lot of the military didn't know how to take John and Elizabeth. Jack and Sam sort of 'got it' maybe because of what they had to work with but the others were baffled. Sheppard was a black mark and Elizabeth was a civilian, yet when confronted they put up a united front--that's why I like when John stands up for Elizabeth with Everett. That was the final 'foot down' of where his loyalties lay. At that point, the military knew that if they were going to override Weir, they needed Sheppard's approval. Hence our First Strike situation, with them at odds.

Thus Caldwell's comment on how close they were. I definitely think Sam and Jack got the Sparky relationship, not the shippy part but the working relationship. In The Seer I think it was or maybe some other ep, when Sam said to John that he was thinking in a certain way because he was in Weir's old office, I think that was her way of telling him she understood their relationship. I found that comment very interesting. John was changed a lot by Elizabeth's influence yet his core beliefs in what was the right thing to do were still there.

Now, Vegas. I am going to split my answers up because it's taking me a while and I'm getting progressively wordy. LOL

Part one:

1.“Vegas” is the only episode of SGA dealing with real AU – meaning, the story is set in a universe different than the one we’re used to. Furthermore, the AU is wrapped up into homage to CSI Las Vegas. Did you enjoy this setting and the different approach to SGA?


Very much. I love CSI and thought RCC did a great job in his homage. There may have been a bit too much fancy camera work but it didn't distract from the story. The music was a great touch that I wish they had used more of through the years.

2.Did you find the story of “Vegas” and the AU setting believable?

Yes, as believable as possible considering the subject matter. Thanks to JF's acting, the beaten up, run down, sad face, gambling addicted, detective with a death wish and no family or friends was extremely believable. The minor characters such as the nurse and his boss, even the motel manager, fleshed out the story nicely and the gamblers were the icing on the cake. Even the “men in black” worked.

3.In the “Vegas” recap I mentioned that AU’s are meant for playing with “what if” scenarios, while keeping the characters true to themselves. Do you think that Robert C. Cooper succeeded in that mission (to present us the same characters in different life circumstances)?

On all levels. In the commentary RCC said “this Sheppard has the same core as ours...the same heroic aspect. He carries the same burden.” Now that is very important in understanding our John. He carries the burden of having lost someone he loved...the burden of being all alone with a not so bright future and a very short life expectancy. He accomplished his goal of showing us how our John could have ended up without anyone who believed in him.

Rodney also was a good example of how he would have ended up without the softening influence of John Sheppard in his life...humorless and dour. In his arguing with Zelenka we see he is still the same old arrogant McKay but there is more of an edge. Radek in no way looks at him with the patient understanding and tolerance that our Radek does. You can tell he doesn't like this McKay on any level. And it makes you wonder what Keller sees in him.

Todd seemed very much the same and seeing Jooohhhnnn Sheppard was like seeing an old friend that he had been waiting for. I wonder if the Wraith are a bit prescient?

4.RCC decided to leave out Teyla and Ronon and didn’t bring them into this story. What is your view of this decision? Did RCC make a mistake for not including these two characters?

They weren't needed and would have needlessly complicated the story. There are a number of ways to include them but it was a conscious decision by RCC to just include Milky Way natives. Since there are an infinite number of ways the story could have unfolded, this was just one way. If they are your favorite characters, you are disappointed but blaming RCC doesn't make sense. He just chose to tell the story this way.

And he could also have included Jason and Rachel in some small way, not as Teyla and Ronon. That would have cheapened the whole thing and made it look ridiculous. There were enough cameos already.

5.In your opinion, did we learn anything new about our regular John Sheppard with the help of this episode?

New? Hmmm? That is a very good question. I'd say if anything we learned the depths to which he might have sunk if things had turned out differently in Afghanistan. When we met him in Antarctica he said he liked it there. I see this as John just taking time to chill and forgetting to restart his life. No stress, no fuss, no bother, nobody to rescue and no orders to disobey. He was probably bored out of his skull but knew he needed to stay out of trouble.

Now here he is in Vegas, also bored but everything he touches turns to crap. He seems to be a good detective yet he failed the test to become one several times. He's sloppy in his personal appearance, perhaps trying to get as far away from the military uniform as he can. Yet his outfit of choice is jeans, a rumpled shirt that probably needs to be washed and a jacket that looks like it's no longer its original color...still a uniform of sorts. He's sworn to uphold the law yet he regularly takes part in illegal gambling activities and is in debt to shady characters who beat him. And let's not forget he's willing to steal money from a crime scene to do what? Pay off his debts or go right back and gamble it away? BTW, he had a winning hand in that poker game. He held two 6's. The dealer dealt three 7's. John could combine those for a full house. He knew that yet he folded. The Wraith messed with his head. In fact John had a little puzzled WTF? look on his face for just a second. More JF mastery.

We also learned that he had been religious at one time and probably Catholic from the sudden addition of the cross. If you want to get really symbolic you could get into the fact that he cleaned himself up and put on a white shirt which was also tucked in for a change. Sacrificial lamb maybe?