Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[KrisRussel]

Damn, John and Elizabeth are eyesexing in her office again! This time in front of Rodney! Do those two have no shame? LOL!

No wonder everyone in Atlantis is on to them

Oh god, please don't tempt my muse! *puts it back in its box* It does doesn't behave if it gets an idea!!!!

*opens box again*
Come out, come out wherever you are...
Go pester your boss, so she'll write some more fic...

Howdy folks. I see we have a new sparky here, so Hello. And some old friends popping in, so Hello to y'all. Ah, the naughty sparky dreams. I had one (well I guess its more a thunker) where Lizzie is my Poli Sci prof. After my usual tomfoolery and shenanigans in class, Dr. Weir tells me to see her after class. She says, "You are a naughty boy..." I'll let your imagination take it from there.

Oh yeah... John so is not going to like that...
He'll be roughing you up in another dream soon

[Janet Fraiser]

Hello, Sparkies! I've just came back from an exhausting over-24 hour trip from Amsterdam and I cannot catch up on all your wonderful posts tonight. (Although I did read your Submersion recap, Eri13, and I love it!)

Probie, I did get your email, thank you.

Scary Kitty, I'm sorry, but could I have the link to your LJ once again? I lost in somewhere in one of these pages of posts and I would love to read your work now that I finally have time.

I am so excited to read everyone's BigBang stories with all this talk of them!

On an unrelated note, I just bought the movie The English Patient and completely forgot Torri was in it until I watched it. I was trying to keep my mind off Sparky for the week and then this had to sneak up on me! Gah!

[Probie]

Vixen in Violet: Your welcome.

Yesterday, I finished "Casualties of war". Very good. Teyla, Ronon, Elizabeth and John are great. There are spanky, sparky, lilo.
Lorne is great in it too. A fantastic story. Now, I will begin "Mirror, Mirror". It seems more complicated to understand.
And a question: When we will do post-a-thon of the episodes (the list) of season 4 and 5?

[Southern Red]

Hello, Sparkies! I've just came back from an exhausting over-24 hour trip from Amsterdam and I cannot catch up on all your wonderful posts tonight. (Although I did read your Submersion recap, Eri13, and I love it!)

Probie, I did get your email, thank you.

Scary Kitty, I'm sorry, but could I have the link to your LJ once again? I lost in somewhere in one of these pages of posts and I would love to read your work now that I finally have time.

I am so excited to read everyone's BigBang stories with all this talk of them!

On an unrelated note, I just bought the movie The English Patient and completely forgot Torri was in it until I watched it. I was trying to keep my mind off Sparky for the week and then this had to sneak up on me! Gah!

Glad you're back safely. You just proved you can't escape the Sparky. LOL

[Eri13]

LOL. Those are priceless.

I watched that for a change. We're tired of the news and it was on so.... Good to see the old stuff. Loved the way John ran after Elizabeth and Elizabeth was soooo worried about her friend Teyla but John just wanted info. The military mind at work. Heh.

And on the same note...well sorta. I am working my way back throught S4...what?...now that I know how things turned out it's completely different...anyway....I watched Missing today and I encourage everyone to do the same. After knowing all that comes after with Keller, she doesn't seem half as bad at this point. Also I liked primitive, violent, take charge Teyla and best of all the set up for the Kanaan story was very well done. I don't think all those who complain that Kanaan came out of the blue were paying attention. They talk about how he and Teyla have known each other since childhood and the affection for him is obvious in Teyla. It clearly establishes him as her love interest. Plus John teasing her about having a date clearly establishes him as just a friend. No ambiguity that I can see.

I enjoyed it a lot more than the first time.

I enjoyed "Missing" when I first saw it. But then, I've never been 'anti' anything so I don't dislike Keller. I stopped watching because I disliked how the show had changed and, though I liked John, it still wasn't the same for me without Elizabeth. Plus, everything surrounding the writing out of Elizabeth (attitudes of both producers and fans) left a sour taste in my mouth.

But character-wise, I could have dealt with Keller. And I liked Teyla's story. I did feel like Kanaan was a little out of left field, but sensibly, he was the only 'father' that made sense canonically. Since we didn't see Teyla with her people often, but we knew she was active enough among them to still be considered a leader, the idea of her being intimate with someone from her tribe made sense.

The only gripe I had with it was that amidst all of Teyla's anger I wish (as I generally did during Season 4 episodes) that Elizabeth's loss had somehow come up. The lack of general 'feeling' about her loss irritated me. In hindsight I think you can see how characters changed (John in particular) but on an episode-to-episode basis, it really bothered me that you didn't feel or see them grieving and then healing. They should have for a friend--and not just Elizabeth, but Carson, too.

*snickers* Betcha that wasn't the only thing on John's mind... Lizzie's red t-shirt was rather clingy.

There's a certain warmth in Teyla when she talks about Kanaan that we don't see in her at any other time. It's very like the warmth we see in John and Elizabeth when they're with each other. Definitely no ambiguity there, either.

I've been rewatching my faves at the gym, and I do have to say--there's a sparkle to John I see with Elizabeth he seems to reserve only for her. I'd have to go through all the seasons again, but it stands out most pointedly to me in "The Real World", in the scene at the end, where he's literally bouncing on his toes at seeing her there. Even though she's subdued and quiet, he looks like he literally can't keep from smiling, even when she chastizes him. It's adorable.

S4/S5 watchers, can you think of a moment where he's that bubbly again? I know the snarky joking is there (the ending of BAMSR comes to mind, with the joking with Rodney) but the lightheartedness of earlier John--do you remember it anywhere? I'm curious to know--and be honest, if you can. I simply want to know if he gets sparkly-eyed anywhere.

Vixen in Violet: Your welcome.

Yesterday, I finished "Casualties of war". Very good. Teyla, Ronon, Elizabeth and John are great. There are spanky, sparky, lilo.
Lorne is great in it too. A fantastic story. Now, I will begin "Mirror, Mirror". It seems more complicated to understand.
And a question: When we will do post-a-thon of the episodes (the list) of season 4 and 5?

GAH! *smacks forehead* I'm going to have to write a note to find Exogenesis. Sorry, Probie, I keep forgetting.

I think SK and the rest kinda decided there wouldn't be a post-a-thon of those episodes because not very many people have the discs. We'll be doing recaps of Adrift, Lifeline, TMC and GITM, with small one-shot posts in-between of relevant Elizabeth mentions, but that's it for the recaps (oh, and one surprise recap at the end from me, and two from Anuna when I'm done of "Vegas" and the S5 Kolya episode--"Remnants" is it?).

[Eri13]

sblade has once again been awesome enough to hyperlink all the MGM pictures with Weir in them in the Torri/Weir WOW thread.

I like this one. It's truly Sparky.

http://stargate.mgm.com/assets//Stil...314-0354xe.jpg

Great shots of her in Progeny, The Return, Submersion and TONS of Sunday's kissing scene. Be forewarned--the second to last link is her being blown back from the window in First Strike. Just a back shot, but still a little gasp-inducing if you're not prepared.

[Probie]

I enjoyed "Missing" when I first saw it. But then, I've never been 'anti' anything so I don't dislike Keller. I stopped watching because I disliked how the show had changed and, though I liked John, it still wasn't the same for me without Elizabeth. Plus, everything surrounding the writing out of Elizabeth (attitudes of both producers and fans) left a sour taste in my mouth.

But character-wise, I could have dealt with Keller. And I liked Teyla's story. I did feel like Kanaan was a little out of left field, but sensibly, he was the only 'father' that made sense canonically. Since we didn't see Teyla with her people often, but we knew she was active enough among them to still be considered a leader, the idea of her being intimate with someone from her tribe made sense.

The only gripe I had with it was that amidst all of Teyla's anger I wish (as I generally did during Season 4 episodes) that Elizabeth's loss had somehow come up. The lack of general 'feeling' about her loss irritated me. In hindsight I think you can see how characters changed (John in particular) but on an episode-to-episode basis, it really bothered me that you didn't feel or see them grieving and then healing. They should have for a friend--and not just Elizabeth, but Carson, too.



I've been rewatching my faves at the gym, and I do have to say--there's a sparkle to John I see with Elizabeth he seems to reserve only for her. I'd have to go through all the seasons again, but it stands out most pointedly to me in "The Real World", in the scene at the end, where he's literally bouncing on his toes at seeing her there. Even though she's subdued and quiet, he looks like he literally can't keep from smiling, even when she chastizes him. It's adorable.

S4/S5 watchers, can you think of a moment where he's that bubbly again? I know the snarky joking is there (the ending of BAMSR comes to mind, with the joking with Rodney) but the lightheartedness of earlier John--do you remember it anywhere? I'm curious to know--and be honest, if you can. I simply want to know if he gets sparkly-eyed anywhere.



GAH! *smacks forehead* I'm going to have to write a note to find Exogenesis. Sorry, Probie, I keep forgetting.

I think SK and the rest kinda decided there wouldn't be a post-a-thon of those episodes because not very many people have the discs. We'll be doing recaps of Adrift, Lifeline, TMC and GITM, with small one-shot posts in-between of relevant Elizabeth mentions, but that's it for the recaps (oh, and one surprise recap at the end from me, and two from Anuna when I'm done of "Vegas" and the S5 Kolya episode--"Remnants" is it?).

You have one week to do this and before that I will go in vacation where there is no Internet. No, it's not the hell.
You can do this after but I think I can't wait the end of August.lol

Ok for the recaps. I can't wait to see what you will do.

And for the link....They are beautiful together.

[KrisRussel]

Hello, Sparkies! I've just came back from an exhausting over-24 hour trip from Amsterdam and I cannot catch up on all your wonderful posts tonight. (Although I did read your Submersion recap, Eri13, and I love it!)

Oh, I forgot you were in Amsterdam... heck, we could have met up... I'm only an hour and half drive away from Amsterdam
More luck next time

On an unrelated note, I just bought the movie The English Patient and completely forgot Torri was in it until I watched it. I was trying to keep my mind off Sparky for the week and then this had to sneak up on me! Gah!

You can never escape TEH SPARKY!!

I've been rewatching my faves at the gym, and I do have to say--there's a sparkle to John I see with Elizabeth he seems to reserve only for her. I'd have to go through all the seasons again, but it stands out most pointedly to me in "The Real World", in the scene at the end, where he's literally bouncing on his toes at seeing her there. Even though she's subdued and quiet, he looks like he literally can't keep from smiling, even when she chastizes him. It's adorable.

I totally and absolutely love that scene at the end of tRW. It's definitely in my top 3 of Sparky moments.
Like I said before and I will keep saying it: his eyes radiate pure love in that scene.
Love, relief, some giddiness... it's all present in his eyes and on his face and after Elizabeth was gone, I never saw that again... never

sblade has once again been awesome enough to hyperlink all the MGM pictures with Weir in them in the Torri/Weir WOW thread.

I like this one. It's truly Sparky.

http://stargate.mgm.com/assets//Stil...314-0354xe.jpg

Great shots of her in Progeny, The Return, Submersion and TONS of Sunday's kissing scene. Be forewarned--the second to last link is her being blown back from the window in First Strike. Just a back shot, but still a little gasp-inducing if you're not prepared.

*dies* I LOVE that photo!!!!!!!!! *squeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!*
Do you have a link to the post(s)? Thx!!

[Eri13]

Yah, here it is:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....ostcount=13196

[Probie]

This one is very funny. link And this: link

[Eri13]

This one is very funny. link And this: link

I'm at the MGM site now checking out all of them and there are some that are great! I don't have time to link them, but in the Behind the Scenes of "The Game" are a couple of Joe skateboarding on the lot while talking on the phone, and the "Echoes" behind the scenes features Jason making a few weird poses behind Rachel during one of the meditation scenes. Hysterical.

There's also some funny posey shots of Jason and David Hewlett Behind the scenes.

[Southern Red]

I enjoyed "Missing" when I first saw it. But then, I've never been 'anti' anything so I don't dislike Keller. I stopped watching because I disliked how the show had changed and, though I liked John, it still wasn't the same for me without Elizabeth. Plus, everything surrounding the writing out of Elizabeth (attitudes of both producers and fans) left a sour taste in my mouth.

But character-wise, I could have dealt with Keller. And I liked Teyla's story. I did feel like Kanaan was a little out of left field, but sensibly, he was the only 'father' that made sense canonically. Since we didn't see Teyla with her people often, but we knew she was active enough among them to still be considered a leader, the idea of her being intimate with someone from her tribe made sense.

The only gripe I had with it was that amidst all of Teyla's anger I wish (as I generally did during Season 4 episodes) that Elizabeth's loss had somehow come up. The lack of general 'feeling' about her loss irritated me. In hindsight I think you can see how characters changed (John in particular) but on an episode-to-episode basis, it really bothered me that you didn't feel or see them grieving and then healing. They should have for a friend--and not just Elizabeth, but Carson, too.



I've been rewatching my faves at the gym, and I do have to say--there's a sparkle to John I see with Elizabeth he seems to reserve only for her. I'd have to go through all the seasons again, but it stands out most pointedly to me in "The Real World", in the scene at the end, where he's literally bouncing on his toes at seeing her there. Even though she's subdued and quiet, he looks like he literally can't keep from smiling, even when she chastizes him. It's adorable.

S4/S5 watchers, can you think of a moment where he's that bubbly again? I know the snarky joking is there (the ending of BAMSR comes to mind, with the joking with Rodney) but the lightheartedness of earlier John--do you remember it anywhere? I'm curious to know--and be honest, if you can. I simply want to know if he gets sparkly-eyed anywhere.



GAH! *smacks forehead* I'm going to have to write a note to find Exogenesis. Sorry, Probie, I keep forgetting.

I think SK and the rest kinda decided there wouldn't be a post-a-thon of those episodes because not very many people have the discs. We'll be doing recaps of Adrift, Lifeline, TMC and GITM, with small one-shot posts in-between of relevant Elizabeth mentions, but that's it for the recaps (oh, and one surprise recap at the end from me, and two from Anuna when I'm done of "Vegas" and the S5 Kolya episode--"Remnants" is it?).

No, John never gets sparky-eyed again. He's playing cars with Rodney in Prodigal and seems absorbed with winning but it's not the same. He says a few cute things to the baby but it's just the usual John humor. And I can't recall a single time when he bounces on his toes like he used to. His shoulders slump and he seems to just be going through the motions the entire last 2 seasons. In TMC and GitM he perks up a bit but it's different. He seems to be trying to stop himself from getting his hopes up. And when in GitM he

Spoiler:

asks Woolsey "what if one of them wants to stay" and Woolsey tells him they have to take things one at a time the disappointment and frustration are very obvious in how his shoulders slump, his head goes down and he makes that frustrated growly noise. Great acting by Joe.

That's why I laugh at the fuss about DH having more lines that JF. Good grief. Joe doesn't need lines. He acts his pants off when he doesn't say a word. *why am I now distracted?*

My husband was always just so-so about Sparky. He saw it but didn't see it as deeply as I did. Now whenever we rewatch an old one he's the first to comment on how obvious it is. I think taken together with what we know comes later when you go back and rewatch, you see it better. Does that make sense?

[Eri13]

No, John never gets sparky-eyed again. He's playing cars with Rodney in Prodigal and seems absorbed with winning but it's not the same. He says a few cute things to the baby but it's just the usual John humor. And I can't recall a single time when he bounces on his toes like he used to. His shoulders slump and he seems to just be going through the motions the entire last 2 seasons. In TMC and GitM he perks up a bit but it's different. He seems to be trying to stop himself from getting his hopes up. And when in GitM he

Spoiler:

asks Woolsey "what if one of them wants to stay" and Woolsey tells him they have to take things one at a time the disappointment and frustration are very obvious in how his shoulders slump, his head goes down and he makes that frustrated growly noise. Great acting by Joe.

That's why I laugh at the fuss about DH having more lines that JF. Good grief. Joe doesn't need lines. He acts his pants off when he doesn't say a word. *why am I now distracted?*

My husband was always just so-so about Sparky. He saw it but didn't see it as deeply as I did. Now whenever we rewatch an old one he's the first to comment on how obvious it is. I think taken together with what we know comes later when you go back and rewatch, you see it better. Does that make sense?

Oh yes. Well, I remember when we were hearing the news about Season 4, and Elizabeth fans like me were just sitting back with sinking stomachs about everything coming up, all I could think is "I just wish they'd do something to remember her". And all the Season 5 discussion about how Weir could return, which went from people speculating 6 episodes to down to 1 to it being Torri would not be back and how badly I felt about all of that (not so much Torri, but the idea of Weir being sandwiched into 1 episode).

Watching then, on an episode by episode basis, everything was just bitter. I hated every lack of mention, and hold a special place in my heart for things like Joe's insistence John mention Weir in "Reunion" and the foresight of whatever writer had Ronon champion Weir in front of Carter. Or Joe's reaction in "Miller's Crossing" when Ronon mentions Elizabeth.

However...after "Ghost in the Machine"--and then re-examining, in hindsight, the entirety of Atlantis as a whole, particularly how Joe Flanigan played Sheppard in S4 & 5--I think a number of fans sort of stepped back, observed the full picture, and more of the Weir/Sheppard connection began to pop out at them. Not so much 'love' but definitely the bond. After his reactions in Adrift, Lifeline and GITM, when you go back to stuff like TRW, the scenes between J&E certainly look a little different from the first time around. Everything with Elizabeth looks a little different when you don't have her for two seasons.

I do think John's personality changes long-term, which is why I think the non-shippers eventually noticed. And what also stood out were the episodes when Weir returned, and people kinda got that 'hmm...I sorta miss her dynamic in the show' vibe. Even from people who felt Weir was nothing more than a figurehead, it's the little things in S1-3 that people being to appreciate. Maybe a bit of that old adage of not seeing the forest for the trees. After the darkness of 4&5, when you go back and you watch S1 episodes like "The Gift" you suddenly see startling things you never noticed before--like how strong Teyla was, how Weir was commanding and how Sheppard bounced on his toes at times with cheeky smiles. And how things were just as 'dark', just in a different way. And suddenly, that forest starts to look a lot clearer big-picture wise.

Funnily enough, what makes me think that is how much you and a few others discussed the arguments over 'who was the medic' in Vegas. When I heard there was an argument, I wondered why people were debating that at all. It wasn't a true 'Sparky' argument because Elizabeth is never mentioned and has been gone two years, so it's not like debating John's role in "TRW." And yet there were still arguments over this nameless, faceless figure, because I think it crossed a lot of people's minds that it could be her, not just Sparkies. The Sparky ship itself jumped on it because of Elizabeth's death. Had we not had the scenes in Adrift, LL & GITM, I don't think Sparkies make that argument. And what's more, the fact that it got debated at all was surprising. Arguing it means the possibility exists, which is a huge step from, say, trying to argue what John was really feeling when he agreed to play Thalen The Long Goodbye.

I don't think people would have considered something like that had we not had the whole hindsight thing by the time we reached Vegas. At that point, Sparky shippers could forward that argument and others would have to think about it and agree or disagree.

Not to mention that we still add people who either agree that, in hindsight, the bond was there or they become new shippers even after S4 & 5 and the loss of Elizabeth.

All together, it's sort of an amazing thing.

[Southern Red]

Oh yes. Well, I remember when we were hearing the news about Season 4, and Elizabeth fans like me were just sitting back with sinking stomachs about everything coming up, all I could think is "I just wish they'd do something to remember her". And all the Season 5 discussion about how Weir could return, which went from people speculating 6 episodes to down to 1 to it being Torri would not be back and how badly I felt about all of that (not so much Torri, but the idea of Weir being sandwiched into 1 episode).

Watching then, on an episode by episode basis, everything was just bitter. I hated every lack of mention, and hold a special place in my heart for things like Joe's insistence John mention Weir in "Reunion" and the foresight of whatever writer had Ronon champion Weir in front of Carter. Or Joe's reaction in "Miller's Crossing" when Ronon mentions Elizabeth.

However...after "Ghost in the Machine"--and then re-examining, in hindsight, the entirety of Atlantis as a whole, particularly how Joe Flanigan played Sheppard in S4 & 5--I think a number of fans sort of stepped back, observed the full picture, and more of the Weir/Sheppard connection began to pop out at them. Not so much 'love' but definitely the bond. After his reactions in Adrift, Lifeline and GITM, when you go back to stuff like TRW, the scenes between J&E certainly look a little different from the first time around. Everything with Elizabeth looks a little different when you don't have her for two seasons.

I do think John's personality changes long-term, which is why I think the non-shippers eventually noticed. And what also stood out were the episodes when Weir returned, and people kinda got that 'hmm...I sorta miss her dynamic in the show' vibe. Even from people who felt Weir was nothing more than a figurehead, it's the little things in S1-3 that people being to appreciate. Maybe a bit of that old adage of not seeing the forest for the trees. After the darkness of 4&5, when you go back and you watch S1 episodes like "The Gift" you suddenly see startling things you never noticed before--like how strong Teyla was, how Weir was commanding and how Sheppard bounced on his toes at times with cheeky smiles. And how things were just as 'dark', just in a different way. And suddenly, that forest starts to look a lot clearer big-picture wise.

Funnily enough, what makes me think that is how much you and a few others discussed the arguments over 'who was the medic' in Vegas. When I heard there was an argument, I wondered why people were debating that at all. It wasn't a true 'Sparky' argument because Elizabeth is never mentioned and has been gone two years, so it's not like debating John's role in "TRW." And yet there were still arguments over this nameless, faceless figure, because I think it crossed a lot of people's minds that it could be her, not just Sparkies. The Sparky ship itself jumped on it because of Elizabeth's death. Had we not had the scenes in Adrift, LL & GITM, I don't think Sparkies make that argument. And what's more, the fact that it got debated at all was surprising. Arguing it means the possibility exists, which is a huge step from, say, trying to argue what John was really feeling when he agreed to play Thalen The Long Goodbye.

I don't think people would have considered something like that had we not had the whole hindsight thing by the time we reached Vegas. At that point, Sparky shippers could forward that argument and others would have to think about it and agree or disagree.

Not to mention that we still add people who either agree that, in hindsight, the bond was there or they become new shippers even after S4 & 5 and the loss of Elizabeth.

All together, it's sort of an amazing thing.

*stands and applauds* You have so nailed it. I saw all of this happening. Sadly, it's too little too late but at least now they see it. And all that I think is part of the reason why the Sparky fandom, not just here but on other forums and in LJ, is still going so strong. Like it or not, Sparky is there.

[Janet Fraiser]

Glad you're back safely. You just proved you can't escape the Sparky. LOL

Oh, I forgot you were in Amsterdam... heck, we could have met up... I'm only an hour and half drive away from Amsterdam
More luck next time


You can never escape TEH SPARKY!!

OMG, it's like a plague for me, but a very, VERY good plague.

Aw, I forgot that you live in Belgium. Oh well.

Yah, here it is:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....ostcount=13196

Wonderful!! I love the behind the scenes pics too.

No, John never gets sparky-eyed again. He's playing cars with Rodney in Prodigal and seems absorbed with winning but it's not the same. He says a few cute things to the baby but it's just the usual John humor. And I can't recall a single time when he bounces on his toes like he used to. His shoulders slump and he seems to just be going through the motions the entire last 2 seasons. In TMC and GitM he perks up a bit but it's different. He seems to be trying to stop himself from getting his hopes up. And when in GitM he

Spoiler:

asks Woolsey "what if one of them wants to stay" and Woolsey tells him they have to take things one at a time the disappointment and frustration are very obvious in how his shoulders slump, his head goes down and he makes that frustrated growly noise. Great acting by Joe.

That's why I laugh at the fuss about DH having more lines that JF. Good grief. Joe doesn't need lines. He acts his pants off when he doesn't say a word. *why am I now distracted?*

My husband was always just so-so about Sparky. He saw it but didn't see it as deeply as I did. Now whenever we rewatch an old one he's the first to comment on how obvious it is. I think taken together with what we know comes later when you go back and rewatch, you see it better. Does that make sense?

Oh yes. Well, I remember when we were hearing the news about Season 4, and Elizabeth fans like me were just sitting back with sinking stomachs about everything coming up, all I could think is "I just wish they'd do something to remember her". And all the Season 5 discussion about how Weir could return, which went from people speculating 6 episodes to down to 1 to it being Torri would not be back and how badly I felt about all of that (not so much Torri, but the idea of Weir being sandwiched into 1 episode).

Watching then, on an episode by episode basis, everything was just bitter. I hated every lack of mention, and hold a special place in my heart for things like Joe's insistence John mention Weir in "Reunion" and the foresight of whatever writer had Ronon champion Weir in front of Carter. Or Joe's reaction in "Miller's Crossing" when Ronon mentions Elizabeth.

However...after "Ghost in the Machine"--and then re-examining, in hindsight, the entirety of Atlantis as a whole, particularly how Joe Flanigan played Sheppard in S4 & 5--I think a number of fans sort of stepped back, observed the full picture, and more of the Weir/Sheppard connection began to pop out at them. Not so much 'love' but definitely the bond. After his reactions in Adrift, Lifeline and GITM, when you go back to stuff like TRW, the scenes between J&E certainly look a little different from the first time around. Everything with Elizabeth looks a little different when you don't have her for two seasons.

I do think John's personality changes long-term, which is why I think the non-shippers eventually noticed. And what also stood out were the episodes when Weir returned, and people kinda got that 'hmm...I sorta miss her dynamic in the show' vibe. Even from people who felt Weir was nothing more than a figurehead, it's the little things in S1-3 that people being to appreciate. Maybe a bit of that old adage of not seeing the forest for the trees. After the darkness of 4&5, when you go back and you watch S1 episodes like "The Gift" you suddenly see startling things you never noticed before--like how strong Teyla was, how Weir was commanding and how Sheppard bounced on his toes at times with cheeky smiles. And how things were just as 'dark', just in a different way. And suddenly, that forest starts to look a lot clearer big-picture wise.

Funnily enough, what makes me think that is how much you and a few others discussed the arguments over 'who was the medic' in Vegas. When I heard there was an argument, I wondered why people were debating that at all. It wasn't a true 'Sparky' argument because Elizabeth is never mentioned and has been gone two years, so it's not like debating John's role in "TRW." And yet there were still arguments over this nameless, faceless figure, because I think it crossed a lot of people's minds that it could be her, not just Sparkies. The Sparky ship itself jumped on it because of Elizabeth's death. Had we not had the scenes in Adrift, LL & GITM, I don't think Sparkies make that argument. And what's more, the fact that it got debated at all was surprising. Arguing it means the possibility exists, which is a huge step from, say, trying to argue what John was really feeling when he agreed to play Thalen The Long Goodbye.

I don't think people would have considered something like that had we not had the whole hindsight thing by the time we reached Vegas. At that point, Sparky shippers could forward that argument and others would have to think about it and agree or disagree.

Not to mention that we still add people who either agree that, in hindsight, the bond was there or they become new shippers even after S4 & 5 and the loss of Elizabeth.

All together, it's sort of an amazing thing.

You guys are so right. And re-watching the old episodes has really made it clear that they had an ever-growing bond, one that can't be denied.

Yeah, my response is not as thoughtful as both of yours, but I am basically agreeing with you.

Oh, also, maybe I wasn't paying enough attention when watching Vegas, but whenabouts was this mysterious medic mentioned in the episode? I feel like such a bad Sparky- although the thought of Lizzie being alive in that episode did occur to me.