Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Eri13]

I think I feel the same.

If GITM!Weir is not the real Weir I would at least like for them to get her out of space after they get real Elizabeth back. I just can't stand to think of any Elizabeth whether real or not floating in space.

I agree any form of Weir doesn't deserve to be left hanging, but if they brought back the real Elizabeth I might be willing to compromise on the fake one.

[gateraid]

I'm half and half--scruffy is as scruffy does. But I'm not a gruffy-scruffy liker. Such as *ducks fans* Russell Crowe? He doesn't really 'do it' for me.

But a little scruff never hurt anyone.



Same for me with hairy chests. I like them sometimes, sometimes not. Generally, though I don't mind if they look like this:

Spoiler:

What you can't see in that photo is the massive bushy eyebrows. And I'm assuming he's a little cold in that pic I'd love to have a body like that, but I would need to triple my gym time

And with Harmon more or less calling the shots, I think they'll do a good job with however they decide to play it out. NCIS has never disappointed me in terms of logically thought out but still damn fun stories.

Either way, I won't be watching it. NCIS annoys me.

I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe on the MGM site?) not too long after SGA started that Sheppard and Weir were approximately the same age, around their mid-to-late 30's. So I had never thought that one was significantly older or younger than the other; they simply had different life experiences that had shaped their perspectives and behavior.

But oh, the change in both of them over the years and how Joe and Torri have played it! They took what little they were given in the scripts, ran with it, and made it look good.

I just assumed they were close to the same age. Logically, Weir should really have been about 50, given her background. And Shep should be at least 40. At the start of the show, I thought they looked of similar vintage and still think so

FYI - Heightmeyer doesn't have a huge following, otherwise I wouldn't have had to set up a Kate drabble-a-thon to quelch my fic-thirst. And have you noticed how the Kate was hot-thread sinks into the depths of Gateworld at the same speed the Lorne and Zelenka ones pop up on the first page.

To be fair, Kate hasn't been on SGA for 1.5 seasons, whereas Lorne and Zelenka were in the last ep. I would imagine, like most things, the following would diminish over time, as it will here.

Kanaan won.

Oh yeah. That guy. Why didn't I think of that *headdesk*

I've got nothing...

Oh wait...

Spoiler:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/FalconHorus/Claire%20Rankin/Clair6.jpg[/IMG]

all the way... although the first time I cam across this one, it was more a case of [IMG]http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/FalconHorus/Smiley/Other/MedicNureek.gif

That's not shocking, its beautiful

[gateraid]

And I got a mod snip! Not that I wasn't expecting it, but yes, I did have a 'spat' with another poster way back when because of this reason. And so mods, I will say no more on the subject.

Thanks for posting the relevant parts, Scary Kitty. Mallozzi seems to have the plot ball rolling there, and I plan to hold him to it. I can't say I like him any better than I did before but he's making connections now and seems a bit more, erm, invested and dare I say even more understanding after the fact. Not happy but not angry either with this. I'm actually left a bit baffled, if anything.

Whenever they toss Elizabeth out and not kill her I can't help but think they want to continue with her but, well, don't exactly know how. But it's evident even after GitM, they say it's the end of the road but she's not dead, they never established she was dead or if it was even her, so she must be very much alive. Why else not to end the story. (Ignore the fact that they may not have guts to kill her.)

Even though I lik to disregard most of S4 and S5, can we at least have a good canon ending for her? Whether she lives or dies (preferably 'live'), just end it in a good way? And if they do leave her drifting again, doesn't this show they still can't let go of such a great charatcer yet?

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but I really have a hard time believing anything on that blog. I can cut him some slack as plans change/evolve over time, but there have been too many things said that have turned out to be contrary to what has actually happened.

And lets face it, he can say whatever he wants now. I could take a stab at his motivations, but this <insert mod snip here> would happen

[Falcon Horus]

To be fair, Kate hasn't been on SGA for 1.5 seasons, whereas Lorne and Zelenka were in the last ep. I would imagine, like most things, the following would diminish over time, as it will here.

For the following to dwindle, there actually has to be a following in the first place.

It doesn't matter anyway... it's too late, and quite frankly I should really stop caring about it.

[gateraid]

For the following to dwindle, there actually has to be a following in the first place.

It doesn't matter anyway... it's too late, and quite frankly I should really stop caring about it.

Aw. Don't feel bad. People feel what they feel. I liked the character, you liked the character, and I'm sure a good number of others did too. Hopefully Claire gets a better job elsewhere, and then you and lemming will be able to feel the love again

BTW I left you a little present over on that other board. You'll either love it or find it disturbing

[Falcon Horus]

BTW I left you a little present over on that other board. You'll either love it or find it disturbing

I'm not easy to disturb... sometimes anyway.

[Erin87]

Speaking of Teyla and Elizabeth and their friendship-that-we-never-saw-but-should-have, I found another fic that you might enjoy:

I Shall Believe, by Quezacolt. Teyla's thoughts on her friendship with Elizabeth, with significant mention of Sparky and briefly of Spanky.

Happy reading!

That was excellent! Love Teyla being aware of the lovely Sparkiness.

For those who don't want to go searching through all four pages, the relevant sections on Sheppard...

Spoiler:

It seems in the last few episodes you're trying to say something about Sheppard in particular, but it also seems the more you dig, the more of an enigma he is.

It has a lot to do with his backstory, and the fact that when we're first introduced to the guy, he's the Everyman -- he's the ground through with the first-timer experiences the adventures in this other galaxy. When we get to know him, he's sort of a loose cannon, he has a bit of a dark side. Over the course of the show's history we've cut this course of exploring what contributed to that darkness -- that he disobeyed orders to go back and rescue friends, there's a lot unresolved.

In season 4 we explore the relationship with his family and the fact that he's essentially ostracized from his family and that he's turned his back on the upbringing they offered him. We go into his marriage and the fact that the marriage fell apart because of the back-ops operations and the secrets he had to keep from her essentially wore away at the bond of their marriage, but they're on good terms, it's like a lost opportunity. I don't know if you know people like this, but there are people who are just generally unlucky people in life. The worst things happen to them and yet they manage to persevere and it's really what shapes them.

Over the course of the season we had a chance to scratch the surface -- not as much as we would have liked. But he's -- I wouldn't even call him an antihero, because he's in a class all by himself. It's something we focused on in "Remnants" [5x15], where Kolya apparently has captured him and is quizzing him, and then you discover that it's basically his own subconscious coming to terms with some of the decisions he's made -- that the reason he's so driven is events in his past where he just won't allow himself to give up on situations, on people. And sometimes, despite his best efforts -- particularly people he can't save, like Carson, like Dr. Weir -- those kinds of things weigh on him. There are things that he just can't let go.

Well, well, well. Isn't that interesting? It almost sounds like he's been reading our minds!

And on to Weir...

Spoiler:

What were your plans for Replicator Weir, had you been able to get Torri Higginson back for this season?

When we were first tossing it around, we wanted to open the door to having Weir be the leader of this "rebel group" of replicators. At the end of the episode they're jettisoned into space, and that's how we pretty much ended that story ["Be All My Sins Remember'd," 4x11]. At the least we wanted to leave the door open and potentially have them out there.

And one argument we had in the room was, this is the Replicator Weir, but what happened to the real Weir? In "This Mortal Coil" [4x10], the Replicator Weir tells Sheppard that her body was destroyed by Oberoth [following the events in "Lifeline," 4x02]. But you wonder -- was she telling the truth? Was Oberoth telling the truth? We had an internal debate in the room, and my thinking was, of course he didn't tell the truth. She was too valuable to him to kill.

And the rule in sci-fi is, if you don't have a body, they're still alive.

Exactly, exactly. He had to have put her on ice, to use later as a source of information or what have you. And the replicators were wiped out, so her body remains in stasis. And ultimately the storyline I would have liked to have pursued would be to have this rebel Weir and the replicators find the real Weir -- it would have been a race to recapture the body between our team and the replicator team, and ultimately how it would have turned out, I don't know.

I'll admit,

Spoiler:

I have to give Mallozzi credit for being smart enough to recognize that logically, the real Weir could still be alive, and how it could happen (damnit, I so called that Oberoth would want her kept around for his own nefarious purposes!), but I also have to ultimately withdraw that praise, for Mallozzi bowing to Mullie's bully pressure to kill her off.

On the other hand... the way that GitM ended does still leave open the possibility that the scenario Mallozzi has suggested could happen. It was never definitively answered whether or not Franibeth really was the REAL Elizabeth Weir, or just another duplicate with Weir's memories that believed that she was the real Weir. Those 'flashbacks' in GitM, of being turned into a full Replicator and thus 'killing' Weir's human body, could simply be false memories planted to make the duplicate think she was the real one... With the Replicators' ability to manipulate human minds, it would be all too easy for them to do it.

It's certainly an interesting idea, with Atlantis racing the rebel Replicators to find the real Elizabeth... but as we all know well, Mallozzi's recent track record for turning ideas that look interesting on paper into good, solid episodes is, well, not good. (Whispers, anyone? The snore-inducing Woolsey storyline in Remnants? And let's not forget the clusterfrak called Enemy at the Gate!) If Mallozzi could dump Mullie and team up with Carl Binder to develop this into a future movie idea with a decent and respectful resolution, I might just be interested... But I sure as hell am not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

GAHH! *slams head into desk repeatedly* Why!why!why?!! Besides the fact that TPTB are stupid... oh wait, there isn't another reason. Grrrr...


And this could even be worked into my theory on how they could bring Elizabeth back for the movie(s). My theory is this:

Spoiler:

Okay, I figure that the team is going to have to steal Atlantis because the Pegasus Galaxy is in trouble and the IOA/international gov'ts won't let them take the city back. (that has such potential awesomeness, epic heist! ) Anyway, we know there are still a few Asgard wandering around Pegasus somewhere who want to get rid of the Wraith once and for all. Now, seeing as how their little plan with the Atero device didn't work, they need a new approach. Not having had their Milky Way relatives experience with the Replicators (and maybe being in those suits for millenia have made them a leeetle bit crazy, who knows?) they hatch a plan that requires a Replicator to work. So they scan the galaxy looking for some and find a bunch of human forms floating in space... and one of them is still active (guess which one ). They hook her up to a computer and find out about her and I'm not really clear on the rest, but it leads to her either having her old body back (cue Mallozzi's plan) or at least building a new one that looks like her old one. John&co arrive to deal with whatever havoc the Asgard are causing and find Liz with them. And of course, this would eventually lead to Elizabeth being permanently reunited with her Atlantis family. (and the shipper in me must add this: John will finally! realize just how much she means to him and they'll get together. (just an arm around her shoulders at the end or holding hands and a lot of smiling at each other, that would be all they had to put to make me happy! Balcony scene! Like the one in EatG only better!))

Anyway, after that bit of a ramble... there are still a few kinks to work out, I know, but it's plausible! And it would make bringing in the Asgard again not completely useless!

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies!

LOL Another plot bunny?? Go feed it!! Quickly before it scarpers never to return!

*offers carrots for plotbunny*

yunadax, Kris, my plot bunny thanks you for your generous contributions to its daily nutritional requirements.

GAHH! *slams head into desk repeatedly* Why!why!why?!! Besides the fact that TPTB are stupid... oh wait, there isn't another reason. Grrrr...


And this could even be worked into my theory on how they could bring Elizabeth back for the movie(s). My theory is this:

Spoiler:

Okay, I figure that the team is going to have to steal Atlantis because the Pegasus Galaxy is in trouble and the IOA/international gov'ts won't let them take the city back. (that has such potential awesomeness, epic heist! ) Anyway, we know there are still a few Asgard wandering around Pegasus somewhere who want to get rid of the Wraith once and for all. Now, seeing as how their little plan with the Atero device didn't work, they need a new approach. Not having had their Milky Way relatives experience with the Replicators (and maybe being in those suits for millenia have made them a leeetle bit crazy, who knows?) they hatch a plan that requires a Replicator to work. So they scan the galaxy looking for some and find a bunch of human forms floating in space... and one of them is still active (guess which one ). They hook her up to a computer and find out about her and I'm not really clear on the rest, but it leads to her either having her old body back (cue Mallozzi's plan) or at least building a new one that looks like her old one. John&co arrive to deal with whatever havoc the Asgard are causing and find Liz with them. And of course, this would eventually lead to Elizabeth being permanently reunited with her Atlantis family. (and the shipper in me must add this: John will finally! realize just how much she means to him and they'll get together. (just an arm around her shoulders at the end or holding hands and a lot of smiling at each other, that would be all they had to put to make me happy! Balcony scene! Like the one in EatG only better!))

Anyway, after that bit of a ramble... there are still a few kinks to work out, I know, but it's plausible! And it would make bringing in the Asgard again not completely useless!

Speaking of the plot bunny...

Spoiler:

That part about the renegade Asgard using the renegade Replicators in their plans of revenge against Atlantis? That's exactly what I was thinking of doing for my fic! Great minds think alike!

[KrisRussel]

Speaking of the plot bunny...

Spoiler:

That part about the renegade Asgard using the renegade Replicators in their plans of revenge against Atlantis? That's exactly what I was thinking of doing for my fic! Great minds think alike!

Honestly, start writing, I can't wait to read it

[Scary Kitty]

Well, this is interesting. I'm not sure what to think. My initial reaction is even more disappointment that TH chose not to return. It all could have been done with Franibeth but not as well.

And friends, telling Mallozzi to dump his writing partner of lo these many years is not going to fly. They should just hand the idea to Binder and let him run with it. I also find it annoying that now we have to on the one hand love Mullie for being anti-Sheyla and yet want to kick him for his attitude toward Weir. Oh my. Decisions. Decisions.

On Sheppard. Talk is cheap. But all that he says about how his character was revealed filled up mere minutes of screen time. He wouldn't be such an enigma if you had given him more to do.

Talk is indeed cheap. It's easy for Mallozzi to tell us all this about both Sheppard and Weir now, after the show has been canceled and who the frak knows when or if we're ever gonna get even one movie, much less more than that. But actually delivering on any of what he's told us about? *snorts* I'm sure not gonna hold my breath waiting for it to happen.

I'll just be over here twisting his words for my own nefarious fanfictional purposes...

I feel sad right now. I will say that if Malozzi had just come out and said this instead of arguing with or ignoring Weir fans, I wouldn't have given up on the Stargate franchise. This was the kind of stuff I wanted to hear. That you still respected the character, even after killing her off, that there were ways you could bring her back--ways that sound awesome, by the way--and that it was something that you'd like to see happen.

I'm not holding my breath that they could do anything like that in a film--and what I feel now is a sort of sad sense of regret. I don't know the behind the scenes; I don't blame Torri--I never will, because she was fired, and nothing in my mind justifies that, even if they had an interesting idea for bringing her back as a guest--but I just feel overall sad. Sad that things ended so badly between the actress and production that something like that storyline couldn't happen; sad that production treated us like we didn't matter when they had something brewing that could have been great; sad that now all is done, and this is a chance that will never be.

So many things could have been done to work with us, to make us continue to support and perhaps believe in what they were doing. So many ways to reach out to fans and find that medium that would let us know some of them heard us. But they never did. I still feel abandoned as a fan, and interviews like this hone in how poorly situations like Weir's dismissal were handled from the top.

I'm just...sad.

Sad is right. Sad, and mad, that none of them had the respect for the cast and the fans to bother doing anything like this when they still had the chance to. And certainly, in all of that, Mallozzi still didn't express any regret about actually cutting Torri and Weir in the first place.

[Scary Kitty]

And I got a mod snip! Not that I wasn't expecting it, but yes, I did have a 'spat' with another poster way back when because of this reason. And so mods, I will say no more on the subject.

Thanks for posting the relevant parts, Scary Kitty. Mallozzi seems to have the plot ball rolling there, and I plan to hold him to it. I can't say I like him any better than I did before but he's making connections now and seems a bit more, erm, invested and dare I say even more understanding after the fact. Not happy but not angry either with this. I'm actually left a bit baffled, if anything.

Whenever they toss Elizabeth out and not kill her I can't help but think they want to continue with her but, well, don't exactly know how. But it's evident even after GitM, they say it's the end of the road but she's not dead, they never established she was dead or if it was even her, so she must be very much alive. Why else not to end the story. (Ignore the fact that they may not have guts to kill her.)

Even though I lik to disregard most of S4 and S5, can we at least have a good canon ending for her? Whether she lives or dies (preferably 'live'), just end it in a good way? And if they do leave her drifting again, doesn't this show they still can't let go of such a great charatcer yet?

Yeah, what the hell? They can't figure out what to do with her, so they get rid of her, then they think of something to do with her, but they can't figure out how to end it? Geeze, guys, get a clue!

And yes, she had better live. How many times have we seen or heard of a version of Weir dying? Four.
1) OldAU!Weir in Before I Sleep
2) Hybrid!Weir in Lifeline
3) Clone!Weir in This Mortal Coil
4) Franibeth in Ghost in the Machine

The death card has not just been played, it's been overplayed. It's well past time to go in a new direction with Weir. And how much different from death can we get than... life and a happy ending.

[Reiko]

That's a very healthy way of looking at it. If they truly had wanted to get rid of her forever, it was easily enough done. Never give up. Never surrender. Sounds like another bumper sticker.

Yeah, I kind of realise that they may just be too afraid (or even not care enough! which could be proven true in the past) to kill her, but leaving her alive and pretty much preserved in space leaves a lot of open ends. And I think they know that.

If GITM!Weir is not the real Weir I would at least like for them to get her out of space after they get real Elizabeth back. I just can't stand to think of any Elizabeth whether real or not floating in space.

Sucks, doesn't it? Especially if Fran!ibeth had good intentions. Or, of ocurse, they can always justify the genocide of sending her into space by making her really evil.

I can cut him some slack as plans change/evolve over time, but there have been too many things said that have turned out to be contrary to what has actually happened.

True.

[Eri13]

Yeah, what the hell? They can't figure out what to do with her, so they get rid of her, then they think of something to do with her, but they can't figure out how to end it? Geeze, guys, get a clue!

And yes, she had better live. How many times have we seen or heard of a version of Weir dying? Four.
1) OldAU!Weir in Before I Sleep
2) Hybrid!Weir in Lifeline
3) Clone!Weir in This Mortal Coil
4) Franibeth in Ghost in the Machine

The death card has not just been played, it's been overplayed. It's well past time to go in a new direction with Weir. And how much different from death can we get than... life and a happy ending.

You forgot "John-thought-she-was-dead" Weir in The Eye.

Guys, just a soft reminder--Season 5 isn't 'officially' unspoilered because the rest of the world hasn't seen it yet, so put Season 5 reveals in Spoiler tags I know, I always forget too but out of respect for those who haven't seen the shows...

[Scary Kitty]

Photo alert!

Our favorite photo wrangler has come through once again! Previously unreleased production stills from Sunday have been posted, including a bunch of Elizabeth and Mike Branton that would be excellent for manipping into some hot Sparky goodness! Save 'em while they're hot!

[Erin87]

Speaking of the plot bunny...

Spoiler:

That part about the renegade Asgard using the renegade Replicators in their plans of revenge against Atlantis? That's exactly what I was thinking of doing for my fic! Great minds think alike!

Heehee. *happy dance*

Yeah, what the hell? They can't figure out what to do with her, so they get rid of her, then they think of something to do with her, but they can't figure out how to end it? Geeze, guys, get a clue!

And yes, she had better live. How many times have we seen or heard of a version of Weir dying? Four.
1) OldAU!Weir in Before I Sleep
2) Hybrid!Weir in Lifeline
3) Clone!Weir in This Mortal Coil
4) Franibeth in Ghost in the Machine

The death card has not just been played, it's been overplayed. It's well past time to go in a new direction with Weir. And how much different from death can we get than... life and a happy ending.

Ooo, too true! I like that sentence a lot!

--
And this may be kind of random, but in response to previous discussion about how John and Elizabeth belong together even in multiple realities, I present this fic that I wrote at the beginning of January. I was very surprised and happy at how it seemed to fit into the conversation without me realizing it. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4761417/1/Forever

Let me know what you guys think, I'd really like your opinions. If you wanna review and don't have a ff.net account, it's also on Command Dynamics. Just so you know. Be warned, it is pretty sappy. But hopefully not enough to overdo it.