Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Eri13]

Hmmm...I'm surprised about Gero being out. What really irritated me about him is how good and solid a writer he was--but he was also stubborn and absolutely SET in what he wanted, even if it meant going against what was showing on-screen.

Writers don't have to bend to the will of the fans, and I wouldn't want them to, but that inner sense of 'oh, this idea isn't working' or 'geez, this pairing actually looks a lot stronger than I thought' is a key component of being a good writer/creator. You have to know what works and when to change things. Sometimes fan response is a good barometer to let you know when to look.

I think very few would go back and argue that Shep and Weir never had a chance. I think most people would agree that they had a strong relationship that could have gone somewhere. I think even more would say that based on her S4-5 episodes. But the frustration of Atlantis is not in what never was, it was in what people stubbornly refused to try. "Pretending" Sparky didn't exist is a slap in the face to the fans who appreciated the writers and actors who developed that relationship on-screen, even if it was inadvertent and not the main ship.

I may not be a writer in the business, but I am far from dumb. I don't make things up, and I'm not crazy, at least I don't think I am. So when I say "those two have a great chemistry" trust me that I'm not seeing vague shadows and treat me with some respect.

Otherwise I'll stop watching and your show might get canceled. Oh, wait...

[Eri13]

Questions on Echoes

1) Echoes is one of those episodes intended to save money, by making the story Atlantis-centric. How does this story rate for you among other episodes? Better or worse that the 'higher budget' ones?

2) There is a LOT of stuff going on in Echoes. Does that work for you? And how do you think the writers managed to keep this story 'reigned in' rather than feeling crunched, as in some other fast-paced episodes?

3) Elizabeth chastizes Rodney for looking up "Sam", asking he make sure it not cut into his work time. Did the idea of them having 'schedules' and possibly being punished for diverting too much surprise you?

4) John, for me, has an interesting attitude throughout Echoes--how did you like his personality here? Did it fit? Was it OOC at all?

5) We've already featured some discussion on 'ships here. How did each of these ships appear in Echoes to you--be completely honest, even if you are a major fan of one:

a) McShep
b) Spanky
c) Sparky

6) Why do you think Binder was able to write Ronon so effectively here? What made him so different than in some of his 'Chewie' style moments?

7) I poked fun at the science element in Echoes--what parts seemed the most implausible to you?

8) What was your favorite scene in Echoes, or your favorite line?

9) Who had the best character moments in Echoes?

10) Why do you think Echoes is a fan favorite for many?

--bonus for Sparkies--

11) What made the 'carry' so squee-worthy for you? And why do you think John carried her to the infirmary, rather than waiting for them to bring a stretcher? Even if the infirmary was packed, we know that they wouldn't have hesitated, it being Elizabeth.

[Southern Red]

wow why would John Be Jealous? i mean if anything he had to worry about what finding out that elizabeth was dead (At that time).

In S4 a few times the question of why John was treating Teyla so, to some people, harshly was asked. JF said he thought about how to play it and decided John was jealous. That was early on. Later we heard that John was "protective" of her and several other things I forget. The jealous thing, I think was JF flailing around for character direction because he had gotten none. He had always been told that Teyla was a potential love interest and that never changed until the end. Imagine how puzzled they must have been when she turned up pregnant. LOL What do we do now? Are we still attracted to each other? WTF? Let's ask Marty G. Ha.

Hmmm...I'm surprised about Gero being out. What really irritated me about him is how good and solid a writer he was--but he was also stubborn and absolutely SET in what he wanted, even if it meant going against what was showing on-screen.

Writers don't have to bend to the will of the fans, and I wouldn't want them to, but that inner sense of 'oh, this idea isn't working' or 'geez, this pairing actually looks a lot stronger than I thought' is a key component of being a good writer/creator. You have to know what works and when to change things. Sometimes fan response is a good barometer to let you know when to look.

I think very few would go back and argue that Shep and Weir never had a chance. I think most people would agree that they had a strong relationship that could have gone somewhere. I think even more would say that based on her S4-5 episodes. But the frustration of Atlantis is not in what never was, it was in what people stubbornly refused to try. "Pretending" Sparky didn't exist is a slap in the face to the fans who appreciated the writers and actors who developed that relationship on-screen, even if it was inadvertent and not the main ship.

I may not be a writer in the business, but I am far from dumb. I don't make things up, and I'm not crazy, at least I don't think I am. So when I say "those two have a great chemistry" trust me that I'm not seeing vague shadows and treat me with some respect.

Otherwise I'll stop watching and your show might get canceled. Oh, wait...

ITA with everything you said. Sad.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

i was watching 38 minutes right now and i always wondered 5 years later what was sheppard going to say when weir asked him but he didnt answer. he just blew it off

[Southern Red]

Questions on Echoes

1)Echoes is one of those episodes intended to save money, by making the story Atlantis-centric. How does this story rate for you among other episodes? Better or worse that the 'higher budget' ones?

Better. I would much rather see the Atlantis based episode in which everyone had something good to do than seeing a lot of space battles. That said, I see the need for variety and don't think all episodes should be alike.

2)There is a LOT of stuff going on in Echoes. Does that work for you? And how do you think the writers managed to keep this story 'reigned in' rather than feeling crunched, as in some other fast-paced episodes?

There was a theme. The visions, the whales and how they related. You went back and forth and gradually saw how they connected. Plus the writing was consistent and the characters were too. It didn't seem fast paced but moved along at a good progression to me.

3)Elizabeth chastizes Rodney for looking up "Sam", asking he make sure it not cut into his work time. Did the idea of them having 'schedules' and possibly being punished for diverting too much surprise you?

A little. And why wasn't exploring the sea life a part of his job? I think they should have had a team on that. Rodney has always seemed to have his fingers in too many pies to me. But I just shrugged it off as poetic license and a way to present plot situations. Also it has always seemed that it was hard to get Rodney to stop working, not have to encourage him. Though staying on task was probably a bit of a challenge for him.

4)John, for me, has an interesting attitude throughout Echoes--how did you like his personality here? Did it fit? Was it OOC at all?

I loved John in this. He seemed much more relaxed than usual. It showed his and Rodney's friendship very well, I think, and brought out John's adventurous side. He first just seemed to be humoring Rodney about the whale but then when he realized it would be a chance to go underwater exploring in a jumper he was all for it. I love it when they get that gleam in their eyes and get all boyish. John also showed his caring commander side when he realized that people were dying and it was his job to do something. Here he reverted to his usual reckless hero persona but that's John.

5) We've already featured some discussion on 'ships here. How did each of these ships appear in Echoes to you--be completely honest, even if you are a major fan of one:

a) McShep
b) Spanky
c)Sparky

McShep was dominant. If you see them as just friends, it was very clear here that they are buddies. If you see more, you can see the affection and caring between them.

Spanky was the spankiest I've ever seen it. They were joined at the hip and between his worrying and taking care of her and her fond tolerance and cute looks at him, it was a Spankyfest. After this, it's a mystery why they didn't go forward with a relationship between them. Nobody could deny their chemistry.

Sparky had a pivotal moment when he carried her to the infirmary. The question has always been why didn't they call for a medical team like they always do? Somebody made a decision that they needed the visual of him carrying her. Maybe it was to show the sense of urgency because it was after he got her to the infirmary that he saw the first dead person and learned that Teyla was out of time. Those things spurred John into action. Aside from that, it was Sparky as usual. Joined at the hip, leading in unison, anticipating each other's thoughts and actions. But if you didn't want to see Sparky, you could dismiss all of it except the carrying part. A man carrying a woman in his arms has always been one of the most romantic visualizations in the movies or TV.

6)Why do you think Binder was able to write Ronon so effectively here? What made him so different than in some of his 'Chewie' style moments?

He wasn't just a big warrior with a limited vocabulary. Jason got to show us that beautiful smile and portray Ronon as a deeply emotional person. You got to see inside his heart and it was terrific. Wish we had seen this side of him more. I think Binder is more closely associated with writing strong characters with feelings than the rest and he gives the actors more depth.

7)I poked fun at the science element in Echoes--what parts seemed the most implausible to you?

The eardrums healing so quickly. Followed by John's whole let's fly close to a sun and survive plan. But it was so much fun I don't care.

8)What was your favorite scene in Echoes, or your favorite line?

Well, duh. John carrying Elizabeth to the infirmary of course. Favorite line had to be “just like a pigeon.” LOL

9)Who had the best character moments in Echoes?

Teyla and Ronon

10)Why do you think Echoes is a fan favorite for many?

It has to be because they are all treated equally. Nobody get the short end of the stick and almost all ships are represented but not overdone.

--bonus for Sparkies--

11)What made the 'carry' so squee-worthy for you? And why do you think John carried her to the infirmary, rather than waiting for them to bring a stretcher? Even if the infirmary was packed, we know that they wouldn't have hesitated, it being Elizabeth.

As I said above, I don't know. It seemed an odd choice if you weren't trying to be romantic. Maybe to show the sense of urgency and the fact that the infirmary was so busy there might not have been a stretcher available. I wonder what would have happened if it had been John who collapsed? Being ever practical, I have to say that they probably didn't even think about it. I doubt it was Joe's idea. He seemed to be struggling a bit. LOL

[Reiko]

Kind of a shame that Gero's gone since he wrote gold in the earlier seasons before his downfall and everything about his writing changed. Was going to add something snerky but decided it would be pushing the PG limit

I was thinking about ships and came up with a scenario that could, to me, make Sheyla look interesting, even convincing - if it was done like in "The Last Samurai" - you know, the movie with Tom Cruise (one of the rare movies where I enjoy his acting. He's really good there). I love the quiet tension between him and that woman, and how they're slowly getting closer to each other, because the culture won't let them any other way. I think that would have worked better than the hero meets the girl and they instantly fall in love scenario PTB wanted to push on us. However I doubt these guys would be capable of writing something as delicate as TLS "ship".

I really loved The Last Samurai (proof that Tom Cruise can indeed act) and you raise an interesting point. Now, that would be an intriguing way to write and develop a John/Teyla romance. Because you all know how much I dislike the cave scene in Rising. I could have taken cliche, I could have taken overt, but that was so overtly cliche that I felt the need to giggle and kinda do the "you've got to be kidding me" kind of thing. Luckily, I was pretty much spared from there on out.

But the TLS setup would be perfect (didn't the woman's husband die? Maybe then should have had her married to Kanaan and have him killed in the first episode) especially watching it develop over time. But again, writer quality -- I don't think SG's current staff would be able to pull that off.

[Wormhole]

wait martin gero is not going to work on Universe? how the hell did that happen?

Maybe he too got fed up of the changes?.

Quick reminder Torri's first NCIS episode is on Channel 5 tonight 9.00 UK time.

[Falcon Horus]

1) Echoes is one of those episodes intended to save money, by making the story Atlantis-centric. How does this story rate for you among other episodes? Better or worse that the 'higher budget' ones?

I love low-budget. They are usually far more creative than big-budget. And I like my stories to be creative. Less is more.

2) There is a LOT of stuff going on in Echoes. Does that work for you? And how do you think the writers managed to keep this story 'reigned in' rather than feeling crunched, as in some other fast-paced episodes?

I think it blends well in Echoes. It all flows together in one smooth go. The story unfolds and closes with just the right moments in between, and doesn't feel rushed as it sometimes happens in fast-paced stories. At least, it's not a case of 'Oops, we're running out of minutes. Quick, an ending!".

3) Elizabeth chastizes Rodney for looking up "Sam", asking he make sure it not cut into his work time. Did the idea of them having 'schedules' and possibly being punished for diverting too much surprise you?

It actually surprised me that Rodney does other stuff than dig through the Lantean database or go off-world. He's always busy with something and looking up the whale came as a surprise to me.

5) We've already featured some discussion on 'ships here. How did each of these ships appear in Echoes to you--be completely honest, even if you are a major fan of one:

a) McShep

I could see it, but Sheppard and Rodney are just good friends, and they yet again demonstrated that in this episode. I loved their moments together, especially the one in the infirmary.

b) Spanky

Spanky doesn't register on my radar... Sibling-like maybe, but whatever it is, Ronon and Teyla have brilliant chemistry together, and I just loved Ronon falling asleep, getting his ass kicked as a result. And when he offers the sword.... I so would have like to have seen Teyla hit him with it.

c) Sparky

Joe and Torri have chemistry together... and it shows.

And what happened to other ships... like Kayla (Kate/Teyla) -> Squeeing my head off!

6) Why do you think Binder was able to write Ronon so effectively here? What made him so different than in some of his 'Chewie' style moments?

Because he wrote him as a person, as 3D character that has feelings and emotions. It's one of the few episodes that has such a well-thought out Ronon running around.

7) I poked fun at the science element in Echoes--what parts seemed the most implausible to you?

The sun and the whales... The burts forward from the sun, exactly the right angle. And the whales trying to warn them... or the Ancients trying to learn the language of the whales, or was it the other way around... See, implausible.

8) What was your favorite scene in Echoes, or your favorite line?

Ronon falling asleep during meditation, and Teyla's reaction to it. Teyla kicking his ass later on and absolutely enjoying it.

My three angels coming down the hallway... Gets me every time.

And Kate looking cute and confused:



*thud*

9) Who had the best character moments in Echoes?

I think they all had great moments, and that's why it ranks so high in my favorite episode lists.

10) Why do you think Echoes is a fan favorite for many?

It shows our expedition in a different light. It has many loved characters and there's plenty of love going around (in all sorts of ways).

[Scary Kitty]

I was 99.9% convinced after S&R that they were going to kill off Kanaan and go with Sheyla. I saw John stepping up as a de facto babydaddy and from there they would gradually ease into a relationship. And *looks around ready to run* I think it would have worked. Nobody but shippers of either of them with other people would have protested and seeing him with that baby would have melted ovaries the world over.

I was very surprised when they actually grew apart and virtually didn't communicate after that. Were we supposed to believe John was still jealous and pouting? Handling his heartbreak? What? It wasn't clear. And thank the stars above for that. I didn't trust TPTB to make the right moral decision and they surprised me this one time. What was clear, however, at least to me was that Teyla and Kanaan were in a real relationship and raising their child together. He was not just the baby sitter. He was the father. He became the father in the traditional way like they taught us in Biology. *snicker* And when JM called him the babysitter on his blog, he was responding sarcastically to some posters who just don't get it. That was easy to figure out.

TPTW were definitely too scared to want to deal with such a bad soap-opera story. Thank goodness. So at least we got to see (and hear of) a bit of Teyla/Kanaan being a real family.

Sometimes, Mallozzi's snark can be useful.

Now we won't even discuss the idea that John still has feelings for Teyla and she him and they would actually have an affair at this point or that she would toss Kanaan to the curb. No, we won't talk about that insanity. Besides, it's over. Done. Complete. No John and Teyla romance. Yay. I'll stop now.

*cackles*

[Scary Kitty]

Hmmm...I'm surprised about Gero being out. What really irritated me about him is how good and solid a writer he was--but he was also stubborn and absolutely SET in what he wanted, even if it meant going against what was showing on-screen.

Writers don't have to bend to the will of the fans, and I wouldn't want them to, but that inner sense of 'oh, this idea isn't working' or 'geez, this pairing actually looks a lot stronger than I thought' is a key component of being a good writer/creator. You have to know what works and when to change things. Sometimes fan response is a good barometer to let you know when to look.

I think very few would go back and argue that Shep and Weir never had a chance. I think most people would agree that they had a strong relationship that could have gone somewhere. I think even more would say that based on her S4-5 episodes. But the frustration of Atlantis is not in what never was, it was in what people stubbornly refused to try. "Pretending" Sparky didn't exist is a slap in the face to the fans who appreciated the writers and actors who developed that relationship on-screen, even if it was inadvertent and not the main ship.

I may not be a writer in the business, but I am far from dumb. I don't make things up, and I'm not crazy, at least I don't think I am. So when I say "those two have a great chemistry" trust me that I'm not seeing vague shadows and treat me with some respect.

Otherwise I'll stop watching and your show might get canceled. Oh, wait...

Oh, hell YES! You nailed it on the head!

[Erin87]

Jumping in to show off some sparky & spanky love.

To really love a woman

made that ages ago. As usual, gateraid provides some very interesting points. I wish I had more time to comment. I'm loving the discussion and the ep recap.

Ooo, that was really good! Loved the way the words matched in the beginning and the fight scenes in the middle really went with the music.

[Scary Kitty]

On to the Echoes Q&A!

1) Echoes is one of those episodes intended to save money, by making the story Atlantis-centric. How does this story rate for you among other episodes? Better or worse that the 'higher budget' ones?

Way better! Having to work with less invariably leads to more creativity, and it shows in this episode.

2) There is a LOT of stuff going on in Echoes. Does that work for you? And how do you think the writers managed to keep this story 'reigned in' rather than feeling crunched, as in some other fast-paced episodes?

It definitely worked for me. While there was a lot going on, it wasn't going all over the place in twenty different directions. Every scene was focused and contributed an integral part of the overall story. There was no wasted run time here.

3) Elizabeth chastizes Rodney for looking up "Sam", asking he make sure it not cut into his work time. Did the idea of them having 'schedules' and possibly being punished for diverting too much surprise you?

Not really, especially with Rodney. The man's a micro-managing workaholic; he'd do everything himself if he had ten hands and there was enough time in the day. I can understand Elizabeth wanting to keep him focused on what he's actually supposed to be doing.

4) John, for me, has an interesting attitude throughout Echoes--how did you like his personality here? Did it fit? Was it OOC at all?

I loved John here; we get to see so many sides to him; the relaxed and enabling buddy, the determined leader, it's all there.

5) We've already featured some discussion on 'ships here. How did each of these ships appear in Echoes to you--be completely honest, even if you are a major fan of one:

a) McShep

Buddies. A little competitive, a little witty, clearly having an insane amount of fun, passing the 'hero and sidekick' roles between them multiple times.

b) Spanky

Hahaha! Echoes was a Spanky love fest from beginning to end! The meditation scenes, Ronon always following Teyla was to keep an eye on her, staying at her bedside... Not only is Binder the champion of Sparky, he's also the champion of Spanky.

c) Sparky

While the Sparky was not as overt as the Spanky, it was still there in a very meaningful way. Faint and carry scene for the win!

6) Why do you think Binder was able to write Ronon so effectively here? What made him so different than in some of his 'Chewie' style moments?

Binder has always had a feel for really getting into the characters' heads and making them more human, and Ronon has some of the most human moments we've ever seen from him in this episode.

7) I poked fun at the science element in Echoes--what parts seemed the most implausible to you?

The quack science, definitely.

8) What was your favorite scene in Echoes, or your favorite line?

Why, the faint and carry scene, obviously!

9) Who had the best character moments in Echoes?

Everybody had great moments, but I'd say Teyla and Ronon took top honors.

10) Why do you think Echoes is a fan favorite for many?

It's such a good ensemble episode, with a solid, fun story that lets the viewer sit back and enjoy the ride.

--bonus for Sparkies--

11) What made the 'carry' so squee-worthy for you? And why do you think John carried her to the infirmary, rather than waiting for them to bring a stretcher? Even if the infirmary was packed, we know that they wouldn't have hesitated, it being Elizabeth.

I think SR nailed it when she said that the image of carrying someone is one of the most romantic visuals in TV and film. There's also the issue of time and giving John a moment to really see the gravity of the situation they're in, to push him into action that will take the story to its conclusion.

And well, we all know that Binder is a closet Sparky shipper.

[yunadax]

my turn

Questions on Echoes

1) Echoes is one of those episodes intended to save money, by making the story Atlantis-centric. How does this story rate for you among other episodes? Better or worse that the 'higher budget' ones?

Sometimes the less 'showpony' the episode is in terms of vis effects, the more they focus on the characters, this is what I found with Echoes, you've got a great collection of character moments mixed in with a little peril, and it WORKS!



2) There is a LOT of stuff going on in Echoes. Does that work for you? And how do you think the writers managed to keep this story 'reigned in' rather than feeling crunched, as in some other fast-paced episodes?

There was just enough space to make it all flow and link together without feeling like pack of sardines episode, the humour and the character moments give the pace a levelling effect.

3) Elizabeth chastizes Rodney for looking up "Sam", asking he make sure it not cut into his work time. Did the idea of them having 'schedules' and possibly being punished for diverting too much surprise you?

It isn't surprising to me at all. You go to work.. you do your job, you get paid. Even in the Pegasus galaxy. What you do in your free time however is your business (to a degree). So IMHO Elizabeth was just playing the boss and making sure he was still actually working.. not 'whaling'.

4) John, for me, has an interesting attitude throughout Echoes--how did you like his personality here? Did it fit? Was it OOC at all?

I thought he seemed a little too 'eager' to help Rodney with all his whale things... but apart from that he seemed normalish to me


5) We've already featured some discussion on 'ships here. How did each of these ships appear in Echoes to you--be completely honest, even if you are a major fan of one:

a) McShep - was there... very cute even! I like to see them working together
b) Spanky - was definately there.. very sweet moments
c) Sparky - :: swoons in happiness:: Sparky Sparky Sparky!!

6) Why do you think Binder was able to write Ronon so effectively here? What made him so different than in some of his 'Chewie' style moments?

I think Ronon needed balance to his 'Chewie' style. He needed a softer side, a more personal side, and Binder gave him that in Echoes.

7) I poked fun at the science element in Echoes--what parts seemed the most implausible to you?

Ummm... most of them?

8) What was your favorite scene in Echoes, or your favorite line?

Elizabeth - And how do you know he's a he?
Rodney - Well if you look here at the...
Elizabeth - Ohhhh never mind!

9) Who had the best character moments in Echoes?
Elizabeth As mentioned in the recap she's the only one in the entire episode you actually see weaken as the ep progresses. There are some very touching moments as this progresses into her collapse in the control room.

10) Why do you think Echoes is a fan favorite for many?
The character building! There's only so much run and gun you can take before you've gotta pull it all back and see who these people REALLY are... and it shows in this ep.

--bonus for Sparkies--

11) What made the 'carry' so squee-worthy for you? And why do you think John carried her to the infirmary, rather than waiting for them to bring a stretcher? Even if the infirmary was packed, we know that they wouldn't have hesitated, it being Elizabeth.

I think the majority of it comes down to Elizabeth being their well respected leader, and John feeling very much responsible for maintaining her health and wellbeing. He knew time was a-ticking and he had to get her to help as quick as humanly possible. Knowing she wouldn't have had any spinal problems (IE that would have procluded a carry) he simply scoops her up and carries her himself.. so utterly sweet!
Plus I think its a very significant moment when he arrives in the infirmary where Ronon and saying how bad Telya is, then Elizabeth is brought in unconscious.. you kinda get a 'Oh boy this is NOT good' kinda feeling.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

u guys do know that are more than one sparky episode to drool over. i mean outta of 100 episodes how many of them were sparky based. or had some sort of Sparkyness.

[Falcon Horus]

u guys do know that are more than one sparky episode to drool over. i mean outta of 100 episodes how many of them were sparky based. or had some sort of Sparkyness.

You just opened a whole can of worms... I hope you are prepared.