Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[gateraid]

With regards to the 'why couldn't TMC Elizabeth stay' question, I assume John rationalised that because she actually didn't want to stay. Heaven knows why though. If she had wanted to, that would've been a tougher question in comparison to Gitm. This Elizabeth seemed to me to be closer to the original (I don't know why, maybe it had something to do with the fact that Torri was playing her), except for one thing. Almost from the get go she acted as if she was 'only' a copy, and never expected to have her former life back. But she did hold true to Elizabeths other beliefs, and was in fact instrumental to ending the war with the replicators. Perhaps she was more like the real Elizabeth than she realised?

As to why they didn't accept TMC Weir vs accepting Kindred Carson, I think it has a lot to do with attitude. Carson II thought he was the real thing. It was only when he got back to Atlantis that he found out he wasn't. Since his cloning he had acted as the other Carson would, and continued to do so after his return (well, no more OOC than any of the other leads in s4/5).

With Gitm

Spoiler:

whether or not one believes it was the 'real' Weir (I've said I don't before) she seemed to believe it. That was probably why Sheppard fought harder to keep her there, and was visibly disappointed when it became obvious her judgement had been compromised.

[Scary Kitty]

So true and it showed all the rest of S5. And ITA, that leave no one behind rule definitely doesn't apply to her. I can just imagine how hard it was for Joe to go against everything his character stood for that way.

No doubt he was plotting how to subtly insert snarky pro-Weir/Torri and anti-TPTW comments into interviews, just like that lovely one in the new SG mag. Ain't revenge fun?

[Scary Kitty]

With regards to the 'why couldn't TMC Elizabeth stay' question, I assume John rationalised that because she actually didn't want to stay. Heaven knows why though. If she had wanted to, that would've been a tougher question in comparison to Gitm. This Elizabeth seemed to me to be closer to the original (I don't know why, maybe it had something to do with the fact that Torri was playing her), except for one thing. Almost from the get go she acted as if she was 'only' a copy, and never expected to have her former life back. But she did hold true to Elizabeths other beliefs, and was in fact instrumental to ending the war with the replicators. Perhaps she was more like the real Elizabeth than she realised?

As to why they didn't accept TMC Weir vs accepting Kindred Carson, I think it has a lot to do with attitude. Carson II thought he was the real thing. It was only when he got back to Atlantis that he found out he wasn't. Since his cloning he had acted as the other Carson would, and continued to do so after his return (well, no more OOC than any of the other leads in s4/5).

With Gitm

Spoiler:

whether or not one believes it was the 'real' Weir (I've said I don't before) she seemed to believe it. That was probably why Sheppard fought harder to keep her there, and was visibly disappointed when it became obvious her judgement had been compromised.

That's an excellent point about how the attitude is the key. TMC's Clone!Weir believed that she was NOT the original Weir, which in turn clearly influenced what the others thought of her, whereas GitM's Franibeth believed that she WAS the original Weir (just as Kindred's Clone!Carson believed he was the original).

[Irish Eyes]

This is what I believe happened to Elizabeth:

Spoiler:

I don't think Oberoth killed her because I think he actually respected her. But I do think he would try to copy her wonderful mind trying to get the qualities he respected without the human part interferring. We never saw her body, thus she is still alive. Not sure where he would have kept her, but obviously off the replicator world. She could be on a planet where the stargate is in orbit so she can't get to it. She's alone, waiting for John and the team to find her. Okay, I'm making myself sad...

And the reason Franibeth was so convincing is because Elizabeth's integrity and strength of character are so strong that those traits can't help but come through, even when it's a copy.

Works with the canon for me.

[Lt.Colonel John Sheppard]

in lieu of what i just read we need the top 5 Sheppard/Weir Episodes.

[Scary Kitty]

This is what I believe happened to Elizabeth:

Spoiler:

I don't think Oberoth killed her because I think he actually respected her. But I do think he would try to copy her wonderful mind trying to get the qualities he respected without the human part interferring. We never saw her body, thus she is still alive. Not sure where he would have kept her, but obviously off the replicator world. She could be on a planet where the stargate is in orbit so she can't get to it. She's alone, waiting for John and the team to find her. Okay, I'm making myself sad...

And the reason Franibeth was so convincing is because Elizabeth's integrity and strength of character are so strong that those traits can't help but come through, even when it's a copy.

Works with the canon for me.

I like that.

I keep seeing this scene in my head that could tie into your idea...

Spoiler:

of Team Shep finding an abandoned science lab that they think is Ancient, then discover Elizabeth in a stasis tank, floating in some sort of weird drug/nutrient fluid with all these wires and tubes sticking in her. She's been alive and well all this time, stuck in a nightmare world like the one in TRW that's been fed into her brain by the wires since the nanites were removed (because Oberoth thought it was too risky to leave her with the ability to connect to the rest of the Asurans). I dunno, just the image of seeing John hauling a comatose Lizzie out of a tank of goop and not wanting to let go of her so Carson or Keller can check her out makes me squee.

[KrisRussel]

I like that.

I keep seeing this scene in my head that could tie into your idea...

Spoiler:

of Team Shep finding an abandoned science lab that they think is Ancient, then discover Elizabeth in a stasis tank, floating in some sort of weird drug/nutrient fluid with all these wires and tubes sticking in her. She's been alive and well all this time, stuck in a nightmare world like the one in TRW that's been fed into her brain by the wires since the nanites were removed (because Oberoth thought it was too risky to leave her with the ability to connect to the rest of the Asurans). I dunno, just the image of seeing John hauling a comatose Lizzie out of a tank of goop and not wanting to let go of her so Carson or Keller can check her out makes me squee.

Oh no!! Plot bunnies!! Stay away evil bunnies!!
*ignore the bunnies, ignore the bunnies*
That really is a great idea for a fic... but I'm not tackling it... anyone else interested?

[Scary Kitty]

Oh no!! Plot bunnies!! Stay away evil bunnies!!
*ignore the bunnies, ignore the bunnies*
That really is a great idea for a fic... but I'm not tackling it... anyone else interested?

Heh, don't look at me, I've already got another Big Damn Sparky!Story Idea eating my brain.

[KrisRussel]

Heh, don't look at me, I've already got another Big Damn Sparky!Story Idea eating my brain.

The bunnies are already eating me alive as I'm working on three big sparky stories (two of which are set after Elizabeth stays behind on Asura) so if I take this one, I'm sure my brain will explode
Either that or my boss will fire my ass because I'm more busy with writing fics than with my actual work
*looks around* No boss in sight *continues writing fic*

[Anuna]

Re the attitude. I think it all has to do with TPTW attitude and their double standards, which is why I don't accept Atlantis Command, as gateraid calls is, as the real Atlantis. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, to treat one of your friends and co workers as more important. Shouldn't the leader be most important person?

Hm, do I believe GitM Weir was the real one? I think she was, and I can even justify her OOCish behavior. She was alone, with nobody but eight replicators who wanted to snatch themselves out from Oberoth's clutches. They were her only chance to survive in some way, and part of her probably thought she owned them that one huge favor. Other part of her is a giver of second chances; if she wasn't that kind of person, who believes there's some good in everyone (remeber how she treated Niam?) then John's butt would still be freezing in Antarctica.

[Southern Red]

No doubt he was plotting how to subtly insert snarky pro-Weir/Torri and anti-TPTW comments into interviews, just like that lovely one in the new SG mag. Ain't revenge fun?

I don't think he has to plot. It just comes naturally. I remember an interview which can be found here in which he says he doesn't like to be censored in interviews. That was way back in '06 and some of his comments are veeeerrry interesting considering what happened afterward.

Re the attitude. I think it all has to do with TPTW attitude and their double standards, which is why I don't accept Atlantis Command, as gateraid calls is, as the real Atlantis. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, to treat one of your friends and co workers as more important. Shouldn't the leader be most important person?

Hm, do I believe GitM Weir was the real one? I think she was, and I can even justify her OOCish behavior. She was alone, with nobody but eight replicators who wanted to snatch themselves out from Oberoth's clutches. They were her only chance to survive in some way, and part of her probably thought she owned them that one huge favor. Other part of her is a giver of second chances; if she wasn't that kind of person, who believes there's some good in everyone (remeber how she treated Niam?) then John's butt would still be freezing in Antarctica.

Everything that happened with Weir can be laid directly at the feet of TPTB. They will never admit it was a mistake but at least they were willing to adjust their cast pairings in the coming seasons. Though I still think McKeller was the worst idea they ever had.

[KrisRussel]

Though I still think McKeller was the worst idea they ever had.

Really?? Well, I have to admit that I was a bit disturbed by the idea too at first, but now I'm actually cool with it and I even incorporated it in one of my fics (as reference mainly). I still like McKay/Keller better than Ronon/Keller... but that's mainly because I'm pro Ronon/Teyla.

[Eri13]

Random question- something that's been bugging me.

I didn't like how in TMC, it was so easy for Shep to be like, 'okay, well, you're not the real Elizabeth, so go off and get killed'. I mean, I know it was a case of character serving the plot and that entire ending was just BOGUS, but that is our canon.

Anyway, I was wondering if Shep knew that they were never going to get the 'real' Elizabeth back in any form [not human, not Asuran, not descended Ancient or weird energy form or whatever other sci-fi ways there are of resurrecting a character], do you think he would have accepted an Asuran copy of her? I mean, same thoughts, same feelings, same emotions, same memories...it was all too convenient to kill her off, I'd've been interested in how the characters responded to a duplicate of her walking around if SGA hadn't chickened out of trying to answer the tough BSG questions.

I think GITM proves that he would have completely accepted 'a copy'. My take on TMC and GITM is that both versions weren't the 'real' Elizabeth.

Spoiler:

In both episodes, we're presented with a 'copy', even though the mind of the clone was the same and Franibeth was the mind of Elizabeth, just in a different body. In either case, you don't get the 'real' Elizabeth as she was. If you go by the story she tells, she's gone. Her body was assimilated. But her mind, heart and soul were saved, and that is the essence of who she was.

In TMC, I agree with the idea that she, knowing she was a clone, didn't feel equal to being the Elizabeth of Atlantis--she felt she was a copy. And John, though I think he would have been content to keep her, respected her wishes. In part because he was hurt 'his' Elizabeth was gone; perhaps in part because that's what John always did with regards to Elizabeth. After THZ, I think he pretty much always respected her judgment and wishes--which is why he's was willing to sacrifice her in Adrift and respect her sacrificial wishes in TMC.

In GITM, however, her greatest wish initially is just to be at home. John is all for that, so even in a 'human replicator' form, which is what she would have become, he wanted her to stay. She wasn't 'real' but we see how much he's fighting to keep any semblance of her after he accepts she's Elizabeth. He also accepts the Franibeth version of her more quickly and with more passion than anyone else on Atlantis. It didn't matter to him that the plan was making an organic replicator form version of her; he just wanted her back--him talking to Woolsey about letting her stay confirms that.

When she then determines the replicators she brought with her are no longer safe, she again makes the choice to protect Atlantis first, herself second. John, again, is forced to accept her choices and does because he does respect her and cares about her. Do I think, had she changed her mind, that he would have accepted her? In a heartbeat. I don't think there's any question that even as she walks through the gate with Fran's face, that his heart is breaking.

Had the PTB been smart and let us have Elizabeth back, I think any form would have done for John.

This discussion has raised an interesting thought process for me, though--keeping away all the behind-the-scenes stuff (because we know the shoddier end of this argument is due to that), could you argue that John's actions in Adrift and Lifeline Lifeline are because he actually has two mantras instead of one?

1) Leave No Man Behind
2) Respect Elizabeth

Interestingly, I think the second rather well explains some of the reasons John makes the choices he makes. I think we see examples of him listening to her wishes and not arguing throughout seasons 2 and 3; maybe he sees her as being like him. His respect and admiration for her has elevated her to that unique level.

In Adrift, he knows her mind, we've already pretty much established that, which is why he's against turning on the nanites. But in Lifeline, he's presented with a nasty choice of the two mantras competing--and his respect for her decisions won out, he let her go trying not to think of the business end, trying.

HOWEVER--it meant he lost her. He's never been okay with that--hence the attitude of John throughout season 4 & 5, trying to be normal but unable to be. He tries to push her out of his head, saying he did the right thing, but he's really unable to think that. That mentality explains why he becomes so desperate when other members of his team are captured or killed.

People who've watched Season 5 can fill in the holes as to his behaviors and attitude there--does it hold true he's still be tortured by that notion?

The bunnies are already eating me alive as I'm working on three big sparky stories (two of which are set after Elizabeth stays behind on Asura) so if I take this one, I'm sure my brain will explode
Either that or my boss will fire my ass because I'm more busy with writing fics than with my actual work
*looks around* No boss in sight *continues writing fic*

Lucky you! I can't write fiction with my boss around, I feel WAAAAAAYYYYYY too guilty.

My fic's rough is done. I'm going to gloss it up and hopefully publish lunch my time.

[Southern Red]

I think GITM proves that he would have completely accepted 'a copy'. My take on TMC and GITM is that both versions weren't the 'real' Elizabeth.

Spoiler:

In both episodes, we're presented with a 'copy', even though the mind of the clone was the same and Franibeth was the mind of Elizabeth, just in a different body. In either case, you don't get the 'real' Elizabeth as she was. If you go by the story she tells, she's gone. Her body was assimilated. But her mind, heart and soul were saved, and that is the essence of who she was.

In TMC, I agree with the idea that she, knowing she was a clone, didn't feel equal to being the Elizabeth of Atlantis--she felt she was a copy. And John, though I think he would have been content to keep her, respected her wishes. In part because he was hurt 'his' Elizabeth was gone; perhaps in part because that's what John always did with regards to Elizabeth. After THZ, I think he pretty much always respected her judgment and wishes--which is why he's was willing to sacrifice her in Adrift and respect her sacrificial wishes in TMC.

In GITM, however, her greatest wish initially is just to be at home. John is all for that, so even in a 'human replicator' form, which is what she would have become, he wanted her to stay. She wasn't 'real' but we see how much he's fighting to keep any semblance of her after he accepts she's Elizabeth. He also accepts the Franibeth version of her more quickly and with more passion than anyone else on Atlantis. It didn't matter to him that the plan was making an organic replicator form version of her; he just wanted her back--him talking to Woolsey about letting her stay confirms that.

When she then determines the replicators she brought with her are no longer safe, she again makes the choice to protect Atlantis first, herself second. John, again, is forced to accept her choices and does because he does respect her and cares about her. Do I think, had she changed her mind, that he would have accepted her? In a heartbeat. I don't think there's any question that even as she walks through the gate with Fran's face, that his heart is breaking.

Had the PTB been smart and let us have Elizabeth back, I think any form would have done for John.

This discussion has raised an interesting thought process for me, though--keeping away all the behind-the-scenes stuff (because we know the shoddier end of this argument is due to that), could you argue that John's actions in Adrift and Lifeline Lifeline are because he actually has two mantras instead of one?

1) Leave No Man Behind
2) Respect Elizabeth

Interestingly, I think the second rather well explains some of the reasons John makes the choices he makes. I think we see examples of him listening to her wishes and not arguing throughout seasons 2 and 3; maybe he sees her as being like him. His respect and admiration for her has elevated her to that unique level.

In Adrift, he knows her mind, we've already pretty much established that, which is why he's against turning on the nanites. But in Lifeline, he's presented with a nasty choice of the two mantras competing--and his respect for her decisions won out, he let her go trying not to think of the business end, trying.

HOWEVER--it meant he lost her. He's never been okay with that--hence the attitude of John throughout season 4 & 5, trying to be normal but unable to be. He tries to push her out of his head, saying he did the right thing, but he's really unable to think that. That mentality explains why he becomes so desperate when other members of his team are captured or killed.

People who've watched Season 5 can fill in the holes as to his behaviors and attitude there--does it hold true he's still be tortured by that notion?



Lucky you! I can't write fiction with my boss around, I feel WAAAAAAYYYYYY too guilty.

My fic's rough is done. I'm going to gloss it up and hopefully publish lunch my time.

Yes yes yes, a thousand times yes! You said what I was thinking but couldn't get into words. *flails*

And S5 confirms even better than S4 just how tortured John is. In Remnants

Spoiler:

he conjures up Kolya to torture him. And JM even said a line got cut about him letting her "slip through his hands". That confirms his inner turmoil.

This is confirmed yet again in other episodes when he moves heaven and earth to save people. And it also supports the theory that Vegas John is our John turned inside out.

I like your 2 mantra theory. Proof that Elizabeth is the only one who will lead him to break mantra #1. John has come to epitomize the "leave no man behind" idea, but that rule is law in the military, especially the Marines. They don't even leave dead bodies on the field of battle. John is an honorable man so that rule worked for him but he has also been through a lot in his life that has left him with abandonment issues and issues from his father not respecting his wishes. I'm sure his treatment of Elizabeth comes partly from that. Plus he just gets her like no one else and vice versa as we saw in Common Ground.

[KrisRussel]

Lucky you! I can't write fiction with my boss around, I feel WAAAAAAYYYYYY too guilty.
My fic's rough is done. I'm going to gloss it up and hopefully publish lunch my time.

I actually don't have time to write fic at work as I'm swamped with work... but my stupid muse doesn't show up during the weekends or in the evenings, so I can really only write when I'm at work... which really isn't fun
*curses her stupid muse*