Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Anuna]

the woobie face of all woobie faces for evermore



I never thought about that, but you are so right. Now it's like he stands vigil out there. You know also John is such a chameleon. Spoiled for S4 and S5

Spoiler:

He adjusted remarkably well to Carter. Even in the balcony scenes with her, but something was always missing. Now it's Woolsey and I think with him being a man, it helps John to form a more personal relationship without the UST. Hee. But still something is missing. Neither Carter nor Woolsey will ever seem like anything but his boss. John will do the male bonding thing with Woolsey and with Carter the military thing was obvious, but they're not Elizabeth. There will never be the equality between them.

And another example how we lost a part of John when we lost Elizabeth. There's a part of him that belongs solely to her and noone else. Nobody can bring that out in him - not Carter, not Woolsey, not his team members, not the random hot chicks of the week. Love - and that's what sparky relationship is, in its deepest level - is about being together and affecting that person next to you, because that person allows you to. It's a union where people become one, but remain separate parts - tough to explain.

I always loved Sparky because they have such mature and realistic relationship. Like I said quite few times, it's not "I can't be without you" thing, but "I can be without you, but I choose not to.".

After all this time and everything we've been through - I still enjoy them.

[Anuna]

Word to ICONIC. From an objective perspective from someone who is reading about the characters and just watched the first episode, I would definately define Shep/Teyla as Iconic because it resembles traditional centuries-old tales of male hero falling in love with exotic warrior female. Iconic -- or cliche? I don't know, I've always enjoyed non!iconic relationships, and Shep/Teyla is far too contrived and predictable for me. *shrug*

There you pushed my hot button. Want me to tell you? LMTY:

It's CLICHE.

Another thing I love about Sparky? My second favorite thing?

It's not a predictable, done to death, seen million times before cliche.

It's modern, fresh, interesting and realistic.

Also, there's belieavable chemisrty, which the other ship doesn't have and never will.

[Reiko]

Like I said quite few times, it's not "I can't be without you" thing, but "I can be without you, but I choose not to.".

I think that's something all 'ship writers should take to heart, because I think when writing romance lots of writers tend to border on the cheese factor with the whole "I can't live without you!" type thing. More of a show not tell thing is Sparky. It's not always what they say but the way they say it.

[Anuna]

I think that's something all 'ship writers should take to heart, because I think when writing romance lots of writers tend to border on the cheese factor with the whole "I can't live without you!" type thing. More of a show not tell thing is Sparky. It's not always what they say but the way they say it.

Yes, and that's why I always saw more than 'just friendship' between them. They don't need to say I love you or You're gorgeous, or things like that. It's there, it's between them, it's in the way they talk to each other. It's not shallow. We actually watched that relationship develop in front of our eyes, and that's what counts IMO. There are hundreds of stupid, cliched, 'iconic' love stories where development is simply omitted because... you know, it's romance! He's daring and she's pretty and voila! There you have it!

But that's simply not enough, and I'm interested in hows and whys and what kind of people they are when they're with each other. I want to know what they leave to the other in case they have to go. It's like with Anna and the King I guess:

"I saw my father, holding the woman he loved for the last time I
realised how small a part of life is taken up by meaningful moments.
Some of them are over before they start. And they cast a light on the
future, making the person who originated them, unforgettable. Anna,
had shined such a light on Siam." ( ~ quote from the movie)

*sigh* Somebody stop me, I'm on a roll this evening.

[Eri13]

You know that pic just made me realize that it was always John coming to Elizabeth on the balcony. Now John is there by himself....sort of like Elizabeth was. I don't ever remember prior to Elizabeth "dying" John being in the balcony, it was always an Elizabeth thing. I find it amusing that John has taken her place....maybe he talks to her at the end of the day about what happened.

Eri13 WORD about Smallville.

Spoiler:

I quit watching, and I've been watching since highchool. It was hard but it had to be done. I can't stand by watching my favorite character get destroyed. Chloe Sullivan was who I wanted to be like, she was just made of awesome, she is by far my favorite character EVER in the history of TV. I can't believe they are changing who she is because Lois Lane sucked and they needed to give everything that was what made Chloe to her. THEY DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT BELIEVABLE. It's like lightswitches are going off and on. To tie this back to SGA and sparky. You guys should be somewhat comforted that SGA PTB are pushing in your face the ICONIC and ICONICNESS of Lois Lane. Seriously bad writing bad writing. There was no development. She just gets whatever because IT IS ICONIC. At least SGA PTB aren't pushing sheyla as obvious as Smallville PTB seem to be pushing the ICONIC that is Lois and Clark. The only reason they are together is because IT IS ICONIC, don't you get it we don't need relationship development because it is ICONIC. It's kind of like SGA and the off-screen character development.

Damn I hadn't realized I was that bitter. LOL. But guys it's been 8 YEARS OF SMALLVILLE. It's kind of hard not be feel like this, one would think that tptb would be loyal to the long time fans but alas they care more about the new fans. To that I say good day

Me bitter too. I've invested 8 years in that show, and as I've said before, I'm easy to please. But they did with Chloe what they did with Elizabeth, only worse, because they kept Chloe around, just shoved her in the backseat.

That's a very romantic thought. I remeber some talks about im carrying her legacy, becoming quieter, listening more, talking less, which only shows how much she influenced him and how much she still matters to him.

Canon - wise, you can't say she's gone because she's a part of John now. I guess that is how all the great loves end, when one of the spouses dies and the other is still alive. The trace one left in another is just too big, it's a real presence. People leave something behind when they leave (one way or another) and in some way they're never gone, which is why SGA never got rid of Elizabeth. There's still too much of her in John and will always be.

And a ficlet along those lines.... I know some of you can't access LJ, so I'll post it under spoiler tags.

Set shortly after 'Lifeline'. John and his thoughts. First person narration. I did my best to capture John's voice, which wasn't easy for me since I'm not a native speaker.

Spoiler:

"Listen"


This place is… you know, weird. Different.


There are five moons, but you can only see two from the City. Maybe three. Not sure, I think Carter says it’s three. We haven’t been here long enough to know. I think you’d like that, ‘Lizbeth, the view of three moons from the balcony.

The stars here are nice, but you know… they’re kinda cold. I think our stars were better, the ones on Lantea. We had better view.

Crap, ‘Lizbeth. I’m not sure what I’m trying to say. I’m not good at profound, you know that… I thought I was, you know, useful here, good for something. I think I should have flipped that coin few more times, because, I screwed up big time. Again. Ain’t that great?

Tell me you’re surprised.



Tell me I’m wrong, tell me anything you want, but it shouldn’t have been you, damn it. It should have been me! I should… I was supposed to protect you! It was my job.

And what bugs me the most? I’m talking to myself here! How come you did this better? You’re the listener, not me, and now I’m the one they come to talk to, and I don’t know why, because, honestly I suck at the interpersonal thing. The Air Force really doesn’t train you for that… Not the pilots, at least.

You know, these stars are kind of pretty. I just… I wonder if they are even similar, wherever you are. And if you can see them. If you can see… anything.



Sh*t, Elizabeth. You have to be somewhere, because I don’t think I can do this... They come and they talk and I just… listen. You did that better - I’m not that smart; I have no ****ing clue what to say. So I just listen. Maybe I should have told you… so many times while you were here, but it was just… you’d tell me I was a fool. You probably would, it would never work, but I guess I’ll never know, eh? Maybe I should have told you what I thought of you. What I really thought of you, how I… feel.


Oh, fu*k, ‘Lizbeth! Damn it, why did you do it? I keep running the scene in my head and I just keep coming up with why? I was there, I could have done something, and Rodney could have done something. I could have pulled you out. Why didn’t you give me a chance? Damn it! This is your fault, you know?! Yes, it’s your fault. You know how much I hate… I hate this! Why did you do it? Of all the people, ‘Lizbeth… of all the people, I should have stayed there, that’s my job, not yours!

It should have been me. Not you.

But you know… I guess it’s true when people say less is more. I keep my mouth shut and people get to say things, smart things, and I get to hear them. Hear them. I should have listened more when you were around, maybe I’d be a bit… better at this by now, you know. ****. Way to go, Sheppard. I just wish… if I could be here with you, one more time, I’d listen. I would.

I would.


Because, you see, I think I figured it out. You started this, the Atlantis mission, and now I have to keep it going. It’s that legacy thing, right? That’s what you would say, right? Heck I can even imagine you there, you know…! That’s… that’s what I’ll do.

Because I kinda suck doing this alone. Please just… talk to me. I’ll listen. I will.

I tried to do some things TPTW obviously omitted - the loss, confusion, anger - yes, anger, longing. Wishing he could get her back, desperate hope he's afraid to hold onto. And the legacy, something, I believe, JF is carefully putting into his performance whenever the opportunity arises, because unlike the writers he seems to be aware that John should be portrayed like a person and not a caricature.

Lovely ficlet, and thanks for posting it where I can read it.

Word to ICONIC. From an objective perspective from someone who is reading about the characters and just watched the first episode, I would definately define Shep/Teyla as Iconic because it resembles traditional centuries-old tales of male hero falling in love with exotic warrior female. Iconic -- or cliche? I don't know, I've always enjoyed non!iconic relationships, and Shep/Teyla is far too contrived and predictable for me. *shrug*

No, it's not Iconic. In Smallville they use the term 'iconic' because Superman IS essentially the relationship between Lois & Clark. And that relationship has been around for 70 odd years now, so they can't throw it aside though they did a damn good job of having Smallville Clark obsess over Lana for 7 years.

Nothing on SGA is iconic because it's new material. But the warrior woman/human man is rather cliche and probably considered stereotypical of action shows. So is the co-leader love relationship (more female assistant falls for male leader), but Elizabeth was so dang cool and singular as a female leader character that I forgive them for hinting it.

[Anuna]

Nothing on SGA is iconic because it's new material. But the warrior woman/human man is rather cliche and probably considered stereotypical of action shows. So is the co-leader love relationship (more female assistant falls for male leader), but Elizabeth was so dang cool and singular as a female leader character that I forgive them for hinting it.

I'm not forgiving. And I'm not watching any more. Bitter? Yes. Because they wasted the best thing they had and the very thing that kept my interest.

[Eri13]

Yes, and that's why I always saw more than 'just friendship' between them. They don't need to say I love you or You're gorgeous, or things like that. It's there, it's between them, it's in the way they talk to each other. It's not shallow. We actually watched that relationship develop in front of our eyes, and that's what counts IMO. There are hundreds of stupid, cliched, 'iconic' love stories where development is simply omitted because... you know, it's romance! He's daring and she's pretty and voila! There you have it!

But that's simply not enough, and I'm interested in hows and whys and what kind of people they are when they're with each other. I want to know what they leave to the other in case they have to go. It's like with Anna and the King I guess:

"I saw my father, holding the woman he loved for the last time I
realised how small a part of life is taken up by meaningful moments.
Some of them are over before they start. And they cast a light on the
future, making the person who originated them, unforgettable. Anna,
had shined such a light on Siam." ( ~ quote from the movie)

*sigh* Somebody stop me, I'm on a roll this evening.

Keep rolling!

On the canon-purist side of things, too, what I loved is how easy they fit. The lack of cliched romance strengthened the mental connection between them. When I write purist canon pre-Lifeline, I don't have John recognize undying love for Elizabeth--but I enjoy having him on the precipice, because that's where I felt the show (combo of writing, directing and acting) took us in pure canon--right to the edge. Had things been different, and Elizabeth's character explored through the replicator kidnapping, for example--including having Sheppard realize he loved her--to me that would have been completely believable and not overtly cliched. Because that foundation was there and strong. Could they have written into Ghost in the Machine John saying "I love you"? Absolutely. Would all the SGA fans have gone 'heh, where did that come from?' I don't think so. Some might not have liked it because it would be 'cheesy', others because it sank other ships, but I don't think anyone would have argued it was out of left field.

[Southern Red]

That's a very romantic thought. I remeber some talks about im carrying her legacy, becoming quieter, listening more, talking less, which only shows how much she influenced him and how much she still matters to him.

Canon - wise, you can't say she's gone because she's a part of John now. I guess that is how all the great loves end, when one of the spouses dies and the other is still alive. The trace one left in another is just too big, it's a real presence. People leave something behind when they leave (one way or another) and in some way they're never gone, which is why SGA never got rid of Elizabeth. There's still too much of her in John and will always be.

And a ficlet along those lines.... I know some of you can't access LJ, so I'll post it under spoiler tags.

Set shortly after 'Lifeline'. John and his thoughts. First person narration. I did my best to capture John's voice, which wasn't easy for me since I'm not a native speaker.

Spoiler:

"Listen"


This place is… you know, weird. Different.


There are five moons, but you can only see two from the City. Maybe three. Not sure, I think Carter says it’s three. We haven’t been here long enough to know. I think you’d like that, ‘Lizbeth, the view of three moons from the balcony.

The stars here are nice, but you know… they’re kinda cold. I think our stars were better, the ones on Lantea. We had better view.

Crap, ‘Lizbeth. I’m not sure what I’m trying to say. I’m not good at profound, you know that… I thought I was, you know, useful here, good for something. I think I should have flipped that coin few more times, because, I screwed up big time. Again. Ain’t that great?

Tell me you’re surprised.



Tell me I’m wrong, tell me anything you want, but it shouldn’t have been you, damn it. It should have been me! I should… I was supposed to protect you! It was my job.

And what bugs me the most? I’m talking to myself here! How come you did this better? You’re the listener, not me, and now I’m the one they come to talk to, and I don’t know why, because, honestly I suck at the interpersonal thing. The Air Force really doesn’t train you for that… Not the pilots, at least.

You know, these stars are kind of pretty. I just… I wonder if they are even similar, wherever you are. And if you can see them. If you can see… anything.



Sh*t, Elizabeth. You have to be somewhere, because I don’t think I can do this... They come and they talk and I just… listen. You did that better - I’m not that smart; I have no ****ing clue what to say. So I just listen. Maybe I should have told you… so many times while you were here, but it was just… you’d tell me I was a fool. You probably would, it would never work, but I guess I’ll never know, eh? Maybe I should have told you what I thought of you. What I really thought of you, how I… feel.


Oh, fu*k, ‘Lizbeth! Damn it, why did you do it? I keep running the scene in my head and I just keep coming up with why? I was there, I could have done something, and Rodney could have done something. I could have pulled you out. Why didn’t you give me a chance? Damn it! This is your fault, you know?! Yes, it’s your fault. You know how much I hate… I hate this! Why did you do it? Of all the people, ‘Lizbeth… of all the people, I should have stayed there, that’s my job, not yours!

It should have been me. Not you.

But you know… I guess it’s true when people say less is more. I keep my mouth shut and people get to say things, smart things, and I get to hear them. Hear them. I should have listened more when you were around, maybe I’d be a bit… better at this by now, you know. ****. Way to go, Sheppard. I just wish… if I could be here with you, one more time, I’d listen. I would.

I would.


Because, you see, I think I figured it out. You started this, the Atlantis mission, and now I have to keep it going. It’s that legacy thing, right? That’s what you would say, right? Heck I can even imagine you there, you know…! That’s… that’s what I’ll do.

Because I kinda suck doing this alone. Please just… talk to me. I’ll listen. I will.

I tried to do some things TPTW obviously omitted - the loss, confusion, anger - yes, anger, longing. Wishing he could get her back, desperate hope he's afraid to hold onto. And the legacy, something, I believe, JF is carefully putting into his performance whenever the opportunity arises, because unlike the writers he seems to be aware that John should be portrayed like a person and not a caricature.

Love the fic. After his talk to unconscious Elizabeth in TRW, I can easily see this happening. I'm working on a tag to Inquisition along these lines too. It needs to sit until tomorrow so I can better see the errors. Who's a grammar nazi?

The discussion above is depressing me but ITA. And the warrior princess/hero archetype romance is as old as time. Has anyone else read the John Carter series by Edgar Rice Burroughs? Some of the best Sci Fi of all time and the first time I encountered this stereotype. Burroughs did it well though. John Carter/Dejah Thoris was believable and hot. It's probably just as well they've never managed to get this on the screen. Actor chemistry or lack thereof might change my mind. Though JF would make a great John Carter.

[Reiko]

So is the co-leader love relationship (more female assistant falls for male leader), but Elizabeth was so dang cool and singular as a female leader character that I forgive them for hinting it.

Yeah, one key to making 'ship work is even after they're together, to maintain the characters are two separate entities because too often you're once again bordering on the whole "I must always be with you" type thing. It's annoying and it deprives both characters of their independence.

[Anuna]

Keep rolling!

On the canon-purist side of things, too, what I loved is how easy they fit. The lack of cliched romance strengthened the mental connection between them. When I write purist canon pre-Lifeline, I don't have John recognize undying love for Elizabeth--but I enjoy having him on the precipice, because that's where I felt the show (combo of writing, directing and acting) took us in pure canon--right to the edge. Had things been different, and Elizabeth's character explored through the replicator kidnapping, for example--including having Sheppard realize he loved her--to me that would have been completely believable and not overtly cliched. Because that foundation was there and strong. Could they have written into Ghost in the Machine John saying "I love you" and all the SGA fans gone 'heh, where did that come from?' I don't think so. Some might not have liked it because it would be 'cheesy', others because it sank other ships, but I don't think anyone would have argued it was out of left field.

Word. And still, even if John doesn't say in in GitM, even if she doesn't look like herself and all sorts of bad things just ran him over, "I love you" is loud and clear on his face and in his eyes. Nobody could possibly say it was out of character or out of place. And I have this feeling that certain people who keep saying the other ship is canon, damnit! see the sparky connection, chemistry and know it's there just as we do - hence their aggression whenever we dare to say John could possibly have feelings for Elizabeth. I mean how dare we. It's not iconic, isn't it?

But it's there and it rings true. And you can't simply erase that.

Love the fic. After his talk to unconscious Elizabeth in TRW, I can easily see this happening. I'm working on a tag to Inquisition along these lines too. It needs to sit until tomorrow so I can better see the errors. Who's a grammar nazi?

The discussion above is depressing me but ITA. And the warrior princess/hero archetype romance is as old as time. Has anyone else read the John Carter series by Edgar Rice Burroughs? Some of the best Sci Fi of all time and the first time I encountered this stereotype. Burroughs did it well though. John Carter/Dejah Thoris was believable and hot. It's probably just as well they've never managed to get this on the screen. Actor chemistry or lack thereof might change my mind. Though JF would make a great John Carter.

Oh I'm sorry to make you depressed. (I'm happy I finally have something to discuss and time to do it, so please forgive me).

Lack of chemistry destroyed that certain other ship for me. Like I'm supposed to believe that? Please.

I got into science fiction with Star Trek. I did watch Star Wars beforehand, but it was Trek that turned me into scifi fan. I always had this vision of science fiction as a means to show something new. I saw the boyhero/hot woman cliche million times over. Can we have something new and bold please? Something like John/Elizabeth? Because cliches = YAAAAAWN.

[Anuna]

Yeah, one key to making 'ship work is even after they're together, to maintain the characters are two separate entities because too often you're once again bordering on the whole "I must always be with you" type thing. It's annoying and it deprives both characters of their independence.

That's something Deep Space Nine dealt with amazingly, IMO. There were couples and love stories and those were wonderful, and still those characters were separate entities. And apart from that, there was plot, continuity, war, action, politics, different species and cultures, cool stuff - DS9 was made of so much WIN. SGA can't possibly beat that. Ever.

[Wormhole]

Post woobie 'Lizbeth too!!!

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x.../bscap1361.jpg

When he saw old!Elizabeth pass out...



That one breaks my heart every time. And the one below....

When I first saw that scene, I thought this might be a continuation from The Storm and The Eye; Kolya wanted to trade for someone. At first we didn’t know whom and the way Sheppard reacted my first assumption was, it was going to be Elizabeth, had it been I don’t think she would’ve hesitated one second with the switch.

[Scary Kitty]

Who says he's not still thinking about her? End of Inquisition. No real spoiler. What could he possibly be doing out there all alone?

Spoiler:

Oh, hell yeah! We've got the spin for the win!

[Ruined_puzzle]

Actually everything is chiche I have this book about Heroes and Heroines and their archetypes and they describe about every possible combination of interaction possible. I still can't figure out where sparky falls, mainly because I can't pinpoint what John and Elizabeth's archetype are. Rodney was possible the easiest to realize, he is basically the same thing as described in the book. Maybe it's because he is the most developed character.

The Professor

The Professor's strength is his intellect or special skills. Expert in one field or many, he has turned his life into one big science project. Every experience, every emotion, every physical sensation has been the subject of objective observation. He is thoughtful, but not necessarily considerate.
He is used to being the smartest man in the room. His genius has set him apart from others for most of his life. However, this experience does not make is any easier for him to remember to communicate on level understood by the less gifted. The inability of other people to keep up with him intellectually is a constant source of frustration for him. As a result, his social skills may not be up to par.

Qualities
Trust the Professor to find the solution, but do not expect any explanations. They would be too hard to understand anyway.

Ronon is the Warrior.

Dark and dangerous, justice is the man's watchword. He is remote, driven, and controlled. The Warrior's standards of conduct are high, and heaven help those who fail to meet them. Including himself. He sees everything in black and white, right and wrong. Shades of gray are an anathema to him. In his opinion, they are only excuses. He is the judge and the jury, and if necessary, the hangman too.

Merciless with enemies, with friends he is loyal unto death. He is the ultimate protector, the defender of all who are weak and vulnerable. Once he has given his word, his commitment he can always be counted upon to come through. He chooses his friends and lovers carefully, but once his heart is offered, he will always come through from them.

I don't know what John is he is either the bad boy, the charmer or swashbuckler. Elizabeth could either be the crusader, the librarian or the boss. I actually think that they are a mixture of all those things.

[Scary Kitty]

Sparky is Up!
Go Vote John/Lizzie!

***

We're behind in the voting, Sparkies! If you haven't voted, VOTE NOW! It's your patriotic duty!