Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[AnnaBee]

Well, various people with various ships - almost all have a thread of their own (I'm not starting mine cause that would sink into the GW depths of oblivion like ... wow ...the sad truth). But I wasn't going to go in depth. I promise.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean for that to seem directed at you. I was just putting that out there for anyone, just in case. I didn't want to risk a 'ship war or something.

So Elizabeth really does have her own theme? Linkies anyone?

[Falcon Horus]

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean for that to seem directed at you. I was just putting that out there for anyone, just in case. I didn't want to risk a 'ship war or something.

You're talking to (Heightmeyer's) Lemming of Multiship - I ain't startin' no wars cause I might just like the other ship too.

Add to that, that Kate doesn't like her lemming getting into trouble.

[Southern Red]

*bin bon* You hit the nail on the head for me. That's exactly why I stopped watching, the bolded part in particular, because no one showed signs of loss. I agree Joe F was more subdued in the S4 I saw, but no one dared to explore how everyone was feeling. I'm glad Rodney mentioned once or twice how guilty he felt, but there was no 'impact' on them. It kinda felt like "oh, I screwed up blowing up that galaxy in Trinity" "oh, I screwed up and Elizabeth's gone now". *headdesk*

I gave them through "Outcast" to convince me that the losses of Carson and Elizabeth were being felt, and they didn't convince me. I watched Midway on fast forward because I was hoping Kavanaugh would say something jerky to the tune of 'Weir's gone' but, no, they couldn't even do that. So *shrugs*.

I could have dealt with Elizabeth being gone and would have stuck with the show if they convinced me they cared about her character. They didn't. They expect you to shrug and move on as though it doesn't matter, but to me it did and still does.

I just read the session with Carl B on JM's thread and someone made this comment.

Spoiler:

Finally, and this question has nothing to do with Tracker, rather with a comment that Joe made at comic con (just watched the video on the website). Ok, maybe this itself is more like a comment. Anyway, the question was thrown at Joe as to how he’s seen his character grow over the course of the series. He commented that that has been one of the larger arcs, but I have to disagree. I feel as if there is one character that resembles themselves the most from the first season it would be John. However, I see this as a good thing. I feel that his character provides a foil for the others-he enables them to change and grow through their interactions with him.”

Carl's answer was that he agreed with the poster.

So, let's review, shall we? Joe thinks his character has grown. He thinks his growth has been a large arc. Someone who watches the show along with at least one of the writers thinks he hasn't grown at all. That he has stagnated and everybody else has grown because they all revolve around him. I hope JF never hears this. I wouldn't want him to dent his pretty head by beating it against a brick wall. Oh wait...I'll do it for him.

I wonder how many viewers feel this way. I doubt any other shippers do. I doubt his fangirls do. Or am I more deluded than usual? I think Joe has done an outstanding job giving us the varied and changing layers of John Sheppard in spite of the absolute drivel he has been given and the asinine dialogue that sometimes comes out of his mouth. Even if he had been a bad actor, the change in him would have been obvious. WTF is Carl Binder on?

[Scary Kitty]

*bin bon* You hit the nail on the head for me. That's exactly why I stopped watching, the bolded part in particular, because no one showed signs of loss. I agree Joe F was more subdued in the S4 I saw, but no one dared to explore how everyone was feeling. I'm glad Rodney mentioned once or twice how guilty he felt, but there was no 'impact' on them. It kinda felt like "oh, I screwed up blowing up that galaxy in Trinity" "oh, I screwed up and Elizabeth's gone now". *headdesk*

I get that same feeling. I loved the bits of Rodney!angst that we were showed, but after that it had the emotional fallout of blowing up an unoccupied solar system. Sheesh. Putting those two next to each other, I can't help but read the second statement with complete sarcasm that it totally loses it's meaning. Because, yeah -- that's how I feel.

There's something else that's been bugging me about the Rodney!angst from the very beginning of the Repli!Mess, and I've finally figured out what it is.

Rodney keeps blathering on to John, Ronon, hell, even Woolsey, about his guilt for the role he played in what happened to Elizabeth. But he never apologized to Elizabeth for what he'd done. He could have apologized to Real!Elizabeth during Adrift/Lifeline. He could have apologized to Clone!Elizabeth in This Mortal Coil. He could have apologized to Repli!Beth in Ghost in the Machine. But he didn't. If he's feeling so damn guilty, why the hell didn't he tell her he was sorry for screwing her over when he had the chance?

Oh wait, that's right. More bad writing and inconsistent characterization.

[Scary Kitty]

I just read the session with Carl B on JM's thread and someone made this comment.

Spoiler:

Finally, and this question has nothing to do with Tracker, rather with a comment that Joe made at comic con (just watched the video on the website). Ok, maybe this itself is more like a comment. Anyway, the question was thrown at Joe as to how he’s seen his character grow over the course of the series. He commented that that has been one of the larger arcs, but I have to disagree. I feel as if there is one character that resembles themselves the most from the first season it would be John. However, I see this as a good thing. I feel that his character provides a foil for the others-he enables them to change and grow through their interactions with him.”

Carl's answer was that he agreed with the poster.

So, let's review, shall we? Joe thinks his character has grown. He thinks his growth has been a large arc. Someone who watches the show along with at least one of the writers thinks he hasn't grown at all. That he has stagnated and everybody else has grown because they all revolve around him. I hope JF never hears this. I wouldn't want him to dent his pretty head by beating it against a brick wall. Oh wait...I'll do it for him.

I wonder how many viewers feel this way. I doubt any other shippers do. I doubt his fangirls do. Or am I more deluded than usual? I think Joe has done an outstanding job giving us the varied and changing layers of John Sheppard in spite of the absolute drivel he has been given and the asinine dialogue that sometimes comes out of his mouth. Even if he had been a bad actor, the change in him would have been obvious. WTF is Carl Binder on?

WTF?, indeed! Those comments by the poster and Binder are such BS, and it's a horrible insult to JoeF. Y'know, someone made a joke a while ago about Binder being locked up in the basement and forced to write what M&M wanted... maybe they've simply replaced him with a pod person. Mallozzi's certainly gone out of his way to insult JoeF on his blog before now. (Remember when Mallozzi tried to claim based on the amount of applause at Comic-Con that Keller was more popular with fans than Sheppard? When in reality, it was just a bunch of Firefly fans waiting for the Firefly panel scheduled after the SGA panel who were cheering for Jewel, not Keller and not SGA?) *headdesk*

I agree with you, SR, John has changed tremendously since Rising, and it is JoeF's great talent and attention to the details that has brought those changes to life. It's a shame that TPTW now feel the need to tear him down when his character has been central to the show's success.

[hopalong]

1) Were you fooled at all by Elizabeth's replicator-induced dream? What did you initially believe was going on?

No, but then again, I had deliberately read the spoilers before I saw it because I had no way of knowing when I'd get to see it. And I would do that again.

But the thing is, I doubt that I would have been fooled anyway. I had seen the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode with a similar plot, so even if I hadn't been spoiled for it, I would have been watching it waiting for the other shoe to drop.

2) What did you think of Elizabeth's Mom, presuming the replicator version was pretty close to the real thing?

I can't remember, so I have to pass on that question. Though I would presume that she would be fairly accurate up to a point.

3) John's 'shadow' image appears almost menacing in Elizabeth's mind...why do you think that is?

I never saw it as menacing IIRT. I always knew it was John, so maybe that's way. But I'd say it was the Replicators' emphasis on the menacing to make her shrink away from realising the truth and revert into the world they created in her mind.

4) Back in the infirmary, John maintains a steady, fairly calm presence, though he's obviously worried. Did you like his reaction and his manner?

"Thou beliest thyself" That's the quote that comes to mind when I think of that. I can't remember whether I liked or disliked his manner, but to me it seemed that he was keeping hold of his emotions, not wanting to let too much through.

5) Did you like Richard Dean Anderson's cameos in this episode?

Yes, though I agree that the not-quite-Jack impressions were another clue that it wasn't real.

6) Was John's action in breaking isolation atypical of John in trying to save someone he cares about? Standard operating procedure for him? More reckless?

Definitely reckless, but I don't think it was atypical of him. Right from the get go with his character he has always been willing to put himself on the line to save others. Wasn't that the reason for the reprimand on his record, his refusal to follow an order to get out in Afghanistan?

Would he break the isolation if it had been any of the others? Hard to say. He would definitely put himself on the line for any of them, but I don't think he has the same connection with them as he does with Elizabeth, so that one act may not be thought of with them.

7) How would you characterize Elizabeth's attitude in the final scene? John's?

Perfectly normal for both of them, from what I can remember.

8) In a show that is basically non-ship, this episode is a pretty darn powerful argument for, at the very least, an Elizabeth/John relationship that goes deeper than an administrative partnership. How do you think it made it out of the writer's room?

Maybe they were testing the waters for taking things in that direction. Or maybe the "shippy" aspects of it were more interpreted by the actors and director than explicitly written.

9) Do you think this episode 'canonizes' Sparky? If not, where is it canonized for you?

That would depend on what you view as 'canonising' Sparky. It's definitely the closest to admitting a non-regulation relationship between them (so to speak). But for me, John's reaction to Kolya "killing" Elizabeth in 'The Storm/The Eye' and Elizabeth's reaction to the loss of John in 'The Hive' does that as well.

10) Is there anything you would have liked to add to TRW to make it better? What?

That's hard to say without watching it again, 'cos I haven't seen it in about a year. The shippy part of me would probably add at least a hug to the end scene, something to show John attempting to comfort Elizabeth.

Maybe having a hollow, echoing John's voice in Elizabeth's head when she sees him, calling to her. That would add to the tension.


Next wallpaper/sig set in next post.

[hopalong]

The next wallpaper/sig set

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Sig:

[Torri012]

The next wallpaper/sig set

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Sig:

sweet walli


i think i'll post one too ...



full size (1024x768) can be found here!

[Anuna]

Somebody pet me? I have laryngitis, can't talk at all, and I failed God damn driving again. Now I have to do everything from the start - traffic regulation lessons, traffic regulation tests, first aid tests, 35 driving lessons and then exam. Again.

Well at least I can rest now and do it again in two or three months before I forget everything alltogether. Right now I want to sign up for belly dancing classes or something.

[Southern Red]

sweet walli


i think i'll post one too ...

http://pics.livejournal.com/torri012...4db8b/s640x480

full size (1024x768) can be found here!

Beautiful! Stolen for my own use.

Somebody pet me? I have laryngitis, can't talk at all, and I failed God damn driving again. Now I have to do everything from the start - traffic regulation lessons, traffic regulation tests, first aid tests, 35 driving lessons and then exam. Again.

Well at least I can rest now and do it again in two or three months before I forget everything alltogether. Right now I want to sign up for belly dancing classes or something.

((((hugs))) Aw sweetie, I hate sore throats. Take a break from driving and do something fun.

[Anuna]

I'm going to take dancing lessons or yoga classes again! I'm looking forward to that. Are you guys ready for some smut? I shall have it soonish. This fic I'm working on deserves the best I can do

[Reiko]

Somebody pet me? I have laryngitis, can't talk at all, and I failed God damn driving again. Now I have to do everything from the start - traffic regulation lessons, traffic regulation tests, first aid tests, 35 driving lessons and then exam. Again.

Awww, ((Anuna hug)) Passing driving in Croatia must be tough -- do you have to pass everything? Because at least where I live in the US you have to pass 80% or higher ...

[Anuna]

Awww, ((Anuna hug)) Passing driving in Croatia must be tough -- do you have to pass everything? Because at least where I live in the US you have to pass 80% or higher ...

Yes you have to pass everything. The driving regulations test is something beyond awful. They give you, among other questions, a five or six pictures of crossings, and you have to know who's allowed to go first (what0s that called in English?). Of course, those situations presented in pictures are awfully tricky. One wrong answer on that set of questions and you fail entire test. Until you pass that test you're not allowed to take driving lessons. Also, you're not allowed to take driving test until you pass first aid test.

But all of that crap doesn't make croatia's drivers good. In fact, we're known as lousy drivers, and people who fail driving test a lot are - people with high education.

Tell me does that make any sense?

Anyway, I went shopping. I feel better.

[Southern Red]

Yes you have to pass everything. The driving regulations test is something beyond awful. They give you, among other questions, a five or six pictures of crossings, and you have to know who's allowed to go first (what0s that called in English?). Of course, those situations presented in pictures are awfully tricky. One wrong answer on that set of questions and you fail entire test. Until you pass that test you're not allowed to take driving lessons. Also, you're not allowed to take driving test until you pass first aid test.

But all of that crap doesn't make croatia's drivers good. In fact, we're known as lousy drivers, and people who fail driving test a lot are - people with high education.

Tell me does that make any sense?

Anyway, I went shopping. I feel better.

Right of way. And here the most powerful car with the biggest jerk behind the wheel goes first. LOL

Shopping: the cure for everything that ails you. Or is that ice cream? I was feeling a bit cranky today so I just watched BIS. Now I'm going to watch TOR for the Sparky contrast and see how John has changed. Report will follow.

[Pajus]

Somebody pet me? I have laryngitis, can't talk at all, and I failed God damn driving again. Now I have to do everything from the start - traffic regulation lessons, traffic regulation tests, first aid tests, 35 driving lessons and then exam. Again.

Well at least I can rest now and do it again in two or three months before I forget everything alltogether. Right now I want to sign up for belly dancing classes or something.

*hugs* I thought you said you wanted to give up

I'm going to take dancing lessons or yoga classes again! I'm looking forward to that. Are you guys ready for some smut? I shall have it soonish. This fic I'm working on deserves the best I can do

I hope it's not drunken storage closet sex

Awww, ((Anuna hug)) Passing driving in Croatia must be tough -- do you have to pass everything? Because at least where I live in the US you have to pass 80% or higher ...

Yes you have to pass everything. The driving regulations test is something beyond awful. They give you, among other questions, a five or six pictures of crossings, and you have to know who's allowed to go first (what0s that called in English?). Of course, those situations presented in pictures are awfully tricky. One wrong answer on that set of questions and you fail entire test. Until you pass that test you're not allowed to take driving lessons. Also, you're not allowed to take driving test until you pass first aid test.

But all of that crap doesn't make croatia's drivers good. In fact, we're known as lousy drivers, and people who fail driving test a lot are - people with high education.

Tell me does that make any sense?

Lucky US-people. Where I live you have to make 90% in the theoretical test (and there can be more than 1 correct answer and you have to find all the correct-ones to get points for the question) then you have to make 100% on the technical exam and then you go on a test drive that is in the '1 mistake and you fail'-style

Anyway, I went shopping. I feel better.

You must be one rich woman