Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Hiya Sparkies!

I meandered through a few of the German articles about Torri's appearance in Bonn, and if I'm translating right, found out:

1) One storyline she and Rachel Luttrell proposed to the producers was to have Teyla teach Weir self-defense, since life on Atlantis was becoming more dangerous and Elizabeth would have felt ill-prepared. It never materialized, but how cool would Teyla and Weir doing Banto stick fighting have been?

This would've been a great way to boost the Weir/Teyla friendship. I find it rather telling that TPTW flushed it down the drain like so many other of the actors' suggestions that clearly would've improved their characters. Made of fail!

2) She speculates Weir would have made out with John, or perhaps Rodney, but Torri herself would have preferred Ronon.

*squees and flails* See, Torri knows that Sparky isn't just a figment of our imagination!

LOL at the Ronon comment.

5) She did, in fact, want Weir to die in Ghost in the Machine. *YIKES* Hopefully, if stuff works out she'll be amenable to Liz living this time around? I can't take another Elizabeth sacrifice. *headdesk*

Progeny questions a little later.

Die?!?

Hmm, that's interesting though, as one of Torri's answers in an interview at another convention earlier this year (it was the one on the island in Africa that she did with Christopher Judge and Cliff Simon) seemed to imply that she was open to the possibility of Weir ascending. (which, of course, did not happen in GitM) Maybe she was thinking die and ascend when she answered this question in Bonn? Yeah, that's it. Die and ascend. Then snog John. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Thanks for translating all of this for us, Eri!

[Reiko]

Sofie already posted some pictures on her LJ, and Torri looks teh lovely as usual

In the current state of SGA, I would have wanted her to die too. I totally understnad what Torri's saying.

Butbut hopefully things will work out and shiznits -- well, you know the rest

[Eri13]

This would've been a great way to boost the Weir/Teyla friendship. I find it rather telling that TPTW flushed it down the drain like so many other of the actors' suggestions that clearly would've improved their characters. Made of fail!

*squees and flails* See, Torri knows that Sparky isn't just a figment of our imagination!

LOL at the Ronon comment.

Die?!?

Hmm, that's interesting though, as one of Torri's answers in an interview at another convention earlier this year (it was the one on the island in Africa that she did with Christopher Judge and Cliff Simon) seemed to imply that she was open to the possibility of Weir ascending. (which, of course, did not happen in GitM) Maybe she was thinking die and ascend when she answered this question in Bonn? Yeah, that's it. Die and ascend. Then snog John. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Thanks for translating all of this for us, Eri!

Meh, I just played around with an Internet translator, but you're welcome. I hope I got some of it right, because I don't want anyone's hopes up where they don't need to be especially mine.

Yes, I agree. Ascending sounds much better. It would have been cool, too, to have them actually reach the goal, despite being 'non-human'. *le sigh*

[SMB_BOOKS]

Pretty Elizabeth.....flirting with her man.....

Spoiler:

[Reiko]

Ascending sounds much better. It would have been cool, too, to have them actually reach the goal, despite being 'non-human'. *le sigh*

Ah, but to me she still is human.

A movie ending with Lizzie ascending would be so bittersweet. -le sigh-

[Scary Kitty]

Gah! Stupid internet died on me when I was trying to post this earlier. Trying again...

Meh, I just played around with an Internet translator, but you're welcome. I hope I got some of it right, because I don't want anyone's hopes up where they don't need to be especially mine.

Oh, I hear you on that one! I'm so tired of being disappointed by TPTW...

Yes, I agree. Ascending sounds much better. It would have been cool, too, to have them actually reach the goal, despite being 'non-human'. *le sigh*

Indeed, especially after the way that the Ancients mistreated them so long ago. The whole thing with the Asurans seeking ascension kind of reminds me of the Star Trek TNG episode where Data had to prove that he was more than just a machine to keep himself from getting turned into a lab experiment by this nasty Starfleet scientist. Data did it; why couldn't Repli!Weir and the Asurans? That was so lame. *sighs*

Ah, but to me she still is human.

A movie ending with Lizzie ascending would be so bittersweet. -le sigh-

Bittersweet, perhaps, but it'd be far more dignified and appropriate to the character than the way things stand now. Elizabeth's done the damn sacrificial martyr crap four times now! (Before I Sleep, Lifeline, This Mortal Coil, Ghost in the Machine) We don't need to have it rammed down our throats again. What we need is to see her get the happy ending that she has more than earned, rather than yet another rehash of the same stupid plot device.

But with ascension... even if we never saw the character again, at least we'd know that she was free of the pain and suffering that she's endured in the past two years, and that she's happy and at peace with being able to explore the galaxy and learn about the Ancients just like she's wanted. I would've been quite satisfied with that.

[hopalong]

*squees and flails* See, Torri knows that Sparky isn't just a figment of our imagination!

I vaguely remember at a con a few years back (can't remember exactly which year, possibly 05) when I met Torri, she commented on the fics about Liz and Shep in closets on Atlantis. It seemed to me she kinda liked the idea of Sparky back then.

Of course, she also made a comment about taking a lot of batteries to Atlantis...

[Pajus]

I vaguely remember at a con a few years back (can't remember exactly which year, possibly 05) when I met Torri, she commented on the fics about Liz and Shep in closets on Atlantis. It seemed to me she kinda liked the idea of Sparky back then.

Of course, she also made a comment about taking a lot of batteries to Atlantis...

Was it this quote?

I did my first convention this weekend and found this adorable group of girls - I think they call themselves 'shippers' - who have this thing about Weir and Sheppard and them having sex in closets...It's very weird!

Torri Higginson

[Ruined_puzzle]

I've always seen Torri as very Sheppard/Weir friendly. She never denies the UST, just that it might not actually ever go beyond that.

Anyways I was thinking about that Stargate Magazine readers poll that the magazine had a couple of years ago. Does anyone know when they might have it again? I mean SGA is ending so they might do one for all seasons of SGA or maybe s3-s5. I just want to know so I can actually you know vote this time. Not that sparky needed that much help since we actually made it on the Most romantic Atlantis moments unlike another ship.



I was just thinking of all the moments I would nominate.

Sheppard carrying Elizabeth after she collapses. (Echoes)
Sheppard defending Elizabeth's honor. (Misbegotten)
Sheppard breaking quarantine for Elizabeth. (TRW)
Sheppard almost crying because of Elizabeth (Adrift)

[gateraid]

Hiya Sparkies!

I meandered through a few of the German articles about Torri's appearance in Bonn, and if I'm translating right, found out:

1) One storyline she and Rachel Luttrell proposed to the producers was to have Teyla teach Weir self-defense, since life on Atlantis was becoming more dangerous and Elizabeth would have felt ill-prepared. It never materialized, but how cool would Teyla and Weir doing Banto stick fighting have been?

It would be entirely appropriate, as would a discussion (even in passing) during The Return about Weir actually using a gun. I know i know ARG but potato potato

2) She speculates Weir would have made out with John, or perhaps Rodney, but Torri herself would have preferred Ronon.

Well Jason used to pinch her on the butt so quid pro pro Rodney is just one of those characters that you just can't see shipped with anyone (& I like Rodney). I couldn't see Weir with anyone else but John ie John or alone, but that's what makes fandom special

3) She still maintains contact with Rachel.

That doesn't surprise me, they seemed like friends.

4) All the stuff I've read on her appearing in movies remains unclear--one writer, I think, said that in pre-panel interviews she mentioned she would consider returning if they gave her a challenging storyline? But I'm not sure if the translation was off...I'll leave that to others who were there to confirm.

5) She did, in fact, want Weir to die in Ghost in the Machine. *YIKES* Hopefully, if stuff works out she'll be amenable to Liz living this time around? I can't take another Elizabeth sacrifice. *headdesk*

Progeny questions a little later.

Challenging - if only. I can see why she turned down GitM. I viewed it as a slap in the face to the character (in much the same vein as a face full of window) and I don't believe it was the 'real' Weir. The only saving grace was Shep's reactions.

EDIT: ooohhhhh #666 figures I am a bad omen

[gateraid]

Progeny Questions:

1) Think back to when you first watched Progeny. What did you think then? What do you think now that S4 and 5 have happened?


I had heard bad things about s3, but I started to think 'hey, they've finally figured out what to do with Elizabeth'. I was disappointed they'd brought back the replicators, but I did like the storyline. If the off-screen developments of s4 hadn't happened, the replicator storyline would look very different. MG said in the commentary in Adrift that he wrote the glass-eating-Weir scene before he knew what was happening to the character.

2) The Replicators were a carryover enemy from SG-1, though in a much more societally advanced form in SGA. Do you think it was worth it to resurrect them here? Should a new enemy have been developed instead?


I liked them in this capacity (unlike the SG1 spiders, and 5th, RepliCarter) but I feared they would overuse them as they did in SG1. I never expected them to be killed off so quickly

3) This is the first episode in which Elizabeth starts out as a member of the off-world exploration team. Did you like it?

Like it? The ep could have ended right after she said she was going with them and I'd have been happy

4) Niam and his desire for ascension have a long lasting legacy on SGA. How do you think he and his 'rebel replicators' diverged from the programmed path of aggression harbored by Oberoth and the rest?


I don't really get that plot device. It doesn't make a lot of sense. They all have the same updates, and can be reset at each update, so why would they stray from their programming so much. But the same can be said for

Spoiler:

Weir in GitM - they reprogramme her and just let her wander the city, knowing full well she is different

5) What do you think John's 'Attack on Atlantis' scenario meant? Do you think he imagined the scenario all on his own, or did the replicators influence the dream? What does it say about John, that he sacrificed himself to save everyone?

It was planted to find out where Atlantis was and what their response would be to an attack. I think it demonstrates that John's reaction is not too different to an military officer - the mission is more important than the man

6) How do you feel about our group meddling with the Replicator base code and destroying them? Was Teyla justified in questioning their betrayal of Niam's trust?

Go Teyla. Forget the Athosians, her strongest scenes are when she questions what the Lanteans do, especially when they are related to Michael but I digress. Ultimately I think she was questioning the value of their word, which apparently doesn't amount to much

7) How human do you consider the replicators, both the 'good' and the 'bad?'

They have compassion, aggression, desires. That is what we term humanity

8) What purpose do you think having Niam attack Elizabeth in the jumper served? Was it just Liz-whumping, which doesn't happen often, or was there more to it?

If they didn't need Liz to be infected in the next ep, I doubt it would have happened. Niam would have been blown up with the rest of the reps. But it was symbolic that it was Liz who was attacked, given she'd been the most trusting of the reps.

Spoiler:

9) Elizabeth becomes extremely tied to Oberoth and the Replicators in the later seasons. Why do you think this is? Does it harken back to her involvement in Progeny?

If they hadn't needed to write her out, she wouldn't have been so closely tied to them, so to me it is a chicken and the egg scenario. It was the logical way to write her out, given that the Genii couldn't get into Atlantis while it was in space. There weren't many other plausible options for her removal, other than simply being fired, which is kinda lame.

10) The last shot of "Progeny" is of Niam, floating in space. This is mimicked in Ghost in the Machine with the FRAN version of Elizabeth. Was this a good parallel? A heartbreaking one? Both?

No. To me it just screams 'we don't know what to do' in much the same way that putting Carson in the stasis pod did. Especially given that they could just go and pick her up in a jumper, and blast the crap out of the remaining reps. And because I didn't believe it was the 'real' Weir, I was sad but not heartbroken.

[Anuna]

1) Think back to when you first watched Progeny. What did you think then? What do you think now that S4 and 5 have happened?

I still love the episode because it was good, despite using the replicators who make me yawn. What stinks is what they did with the storyline later.

2) The Replicators were a carryover enemy from SG-1, though in a much more societally advanced form in SGA. Do you think it was worth it to resurrect them here? Should a new enemy have been developed instead?


Hm I think too many fresh brain cells are needed for developing a new enemy. Hence rehashing SG - 1. Like I said, Replicators make me yawn, and they feel like Borg rip off to me (machines, collective, replicating fast, it's or it should be very hard to stop them, but that depends heavily for what the plot device is needed). The Borg were WAY cooler, they were a really formidable enemy unlike the replicators (somehow I fail to perceive them as a threat like the Wraith. They're too much of yawn yawn yawn and a plot device for pretty explosions and removal of Elizabeth which is BORING and LAME) and the Borg had a decent storyline at least.

3) This is the first episode in which Elizabeth starts out as a member of the off-world exploration team. Did you like it?

What were you thinking before, TPTW? Oh you weren't. Figures. It's sad because so many fanfic writers had Elizabeth off world in amazing stories which were WAY better than so called "canon".

4) Niam and his desire for ascension have a long lasting legacy on SGA. How do you think he and his 'rebel replicators' diverged from the programmed path of aggression harbored by Oberoth and the rest?

I was never really convinced. The whole idea is so boring and Iw as just, Oh okay, this dude wants to be good, but let's bet he'll end up bad. Again, Star Trek handled the idea of a villain wanting to be a good guy way much better. I, Borg (from TNG) and Hippocratic oath (from DS9) are excellent examples. Actually, I could put together a list of themes and motives used in SGA and find Star Trek episodes that did it better.

5) What do you think John's 'Attack on Atlantis' scenario meant? Do you think he imagined the scenario all on his own, or did the replicators influence the dream? What does it say about John, that he sacrificed himself to save everyone?


I think he imagined it. Maybe they gave him a stimuli that said "worst case scenario" and that was what played out in his head, but I think it was more his doing than the replicators. He's strongest desire is to protect his people, his worse fear is them coming in harm's way. This is how his nature of a protector works - think of a worst possible thing and then come up with a solution that ensures everyone's safety (everyone's but his).

This is when we see he has suicidal tendencies (no it's not 'I'm desperate' type of suicide, it's 'This is my higher goal type of suicide' (or you can as well say he's desperate to protect everyone), and yes, I call it suicide) - and after this was established as John's nature, then why the heck he let Elizabeth be taken by the Replicators? It's either ignoring the canon or giving the character a split personality disorder, and perhaps bad writing too.

If they wrote the show in accord to everything established prior to S4 then John would have saved Elizabeth even if that sent him to the court martial (which would probably made both sparkies and Pajus happy).

Sloppy writing, TPTW.

6) How do you feel about our group meddling with the Replicator base code and destroying them? Was Teyla justified in questioning their betrayal of Niam's trust?


Teyla was right. They should have used her as moral compass more often. Other than that the idea is made of YAWN. Star Trek I miss you so.

7) How human do you consider the replicators, both the 'good' and the 'bad?'


Not? Like I said I was never sold on their complete storyline because I find them a boring rip off of a rip off.

8) What purpose do you think having Niam attack Elizabeth in the jumper served? Was it just Liz-whumping, which doesn't happen often, or was there more to it?

They wanted some drama at the end of the ep - which was good, and they needed it for the next episode. I especially like how John was the one who pushed Niam away.

Spoiler:

9) Elizabeth becomes extremely tied to Oberoth and the Replicators in the later seasons. Why do you think this is? Does it harken back to her involvement in Progeny?


It's a blatant plot device for writing her out. Progeny was about her trying to do her best as a negotiator, and Adrift + Lifeline were full of martyr crap that eventually ended in the most shameful treatment of a leading character in the history of science fiction.

10) The last shot of "Progeny" is of Niam, floating in space. This is mimicked in Ghost in the Machine with the FRAN version of Elizabeth. Was this a good parallel? A heartbreaking one? Both?

It's a plothole as big as Atlantis herself. I'm amused by members of certain ship group saying Weir is dead because we know from Progeny that Replicators can't be killed if you "airlock" them. Leaving her floating in space is another glaring evidence that they had no idea where to go with her story and how to treat the character. One thing is certain, they treated her without any respect whatsoever.

To me the moment was sad, but not because of FRAN version of Elizabeth - it was because of John and everything what he had to go through. If this show was written realistically then he'd be suffering nightmares and in need of psychotherapy in following episodes. Did that happen? No. Add selective amnesia to multiple personality disorder.

God, I was harsh....

[MatroxMeteor]

1) Think back to when you first watched Progeny. What did you think then? What do you think now that S4 and 5 have happened?

It's a good premise gone terribly wrong. At the time the Asurans provided a new sourse of potentially very interesting ideas and developments, but the producers never really wanted to do anything with them except to have a new terrible and menacing alien of the week. They never really had any idea of what to do with them, where the story arc should go, rather it seemed that they were brought back when there was the need for *something* to be written into the next episode. Good idea went to improvised episode 2, 3... and so on, later snowballing into a complete lead character disaster.

2) The Replicators were a carryover enemy from SG-1, though in a much more societally advanced form in SGA. Do you think it was worth it to resurrect them here? Should a new enemy have been developed instead?

As Anuna said, they were a complete Borg ripoff - complete with being able to adapt to anti replicator weapons fire. And the idea of programming them to freeze? TNG's Best of Both Worlds II anyone? The Borg were well thought out and truly terrifying - making you a cyborg, stripping you of your individuality and more or less unstoppable - while the Replicators or Asurans were... bland. Plot device.

3) This is the first episode in which Elizabeth starts out as a member of the off-world exploration team. Did you like it?

Yeah, she's a living being and she can walk... Of course I liked it!

6) How do you feel about our group meddling with the Replicator base code and destroying them? Was Teyla justified in questioning their betrayal of Niam's trust?


Teyla was absolutely justified and betraying someone for the 'greater good'... it sets a bad example.

7) How human do you consider the replicators, both the 'good' and the 'bad?'

Like Anuna, I find it difficult to contemplate the replicators this far as they are a stripped down rip off from Star Trek...

8) What purpose do you think having Niam attack Elizabeth in the jumper served? Was it just Liz-whumping, which doesn't happen often, or was there more to it?

Only drama. Otherwise it didn't make much sense. If the replicators are stronger than humans, and we've seen they are and cannot be stopped by ordinary weapons fire it would have been much more logical for Niam to try to get to the puddle jumper's controls instead of just attacking some random person on board... It was done just for the drama, there was no real motive behind it. I liked the way everyone was protective of Elizabeth, but it didn't make sense.

Spoiler:

9) Elizabeth becomes extremely tied to Oberoth and the Replicators in the later seasons. Why do you think this is? Does it harken back to her involvement in Progeny?

Couldn't have put it better than Anuna.


10) The last shot of "Progeny" is of Niam, floating in space. This is mimicked in Ghost in the Machine with the FRAN version of Elizabeth. Was this a good parallel? A heartbreaking one? Both?

Are you kidding me? I hope TPTB don't have friends like that! I wouldn't want to... Ok, so they want to set the replicators up. They did. And it worked. So now what, just leave Elizabeth adrift in space?! I would have expected each and every one of them to work on a way to get her back. Physically that means John getting into a puddle jumper and picking her up. Later, if there is some possibility that her replicator nature might prove dangerous they could keep her in stasis or frozen or something until Rodney and Radek and everyone else in the science department dies of sleep deprivation or they come up with a solution. Come on!! As I said, if TPTB have friends like that... they are in danger. If TPTB are like that...

And yes, Anuna was 100% right when she said John should be having nightmares and need psychoteraphy, not exchanging high fives with Carson when a bunch of playmate space marines are in town... Soooo... Good parallel? Heartbreaking one? Give me a break...

[Anuna]

@ Matrox - yes they're priceless when it comes to writing character continuity.....

Progeny is a great episode, but these new villains are just a rip offed plot device for several episodes to follow. At this point TPTW had no real plan where to go with their storyline (unlike Star Trek TPTB with The Borg or Jem Hadar soldiers who are even a better example). Need a bad guy and space explosions? Oh let's use replicators this week.

YAAAAWN.

[SMB_BOOKS]

Hehehehe - I'm addicted to these things......

Spoiler: