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Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

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    What I want to see from female characters in SciFi are smart women with flaws, and while they may kick ass, be in a job dominated by men, (or heck just being a female character on a Sci Fi show) they still retain their femininity without being over-the-top. Put simply.

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      OMG...I was just watching on the news coverage of the hurricane now hitting the Gulf...I am hoping and praying for all of you in Hurricane Gustov's path. BE SAFE!!!

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        Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
        Thanks.
        It's for a trekkie character?! NOOO!!!! I liked that character.

        Originally posted by LtCdrFlygirl View Post
        OMG...I was just watching on the news coverage of the hurricane now hitting the Gulf...I am hoping and praying for all of you in Hurricane Gustov's path. BE SAFE!!!
        Prayers coming in from me too. Keep safe.
        sigpicI love the Lord my God with all my heart!!!!http://www.geocities.com/Lessien2002 Save stargate sg1!!!! Let us shippers have a good resolution please!!!! My fanfiction http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1023184/- there's more to come!
        My GW fanfiction-http://www.gateworld.net/fanfic/arch...ogetherat.html
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          Originally posted by LtCdrFlygirl View Post
          OMG...I was just watching on the news coverage of the hurricane now hitting the Gulf...I am hoping and praying for all of you in Hurricane Gustov's path. BE SAFE!!!
          I was hearing about that hurricane, which part of the Gulf is the hurricane is at? I'm praying to God to ensure your safety those of you in the hurricane's path

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            Stay safe, guys <3

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              Hey sparkies, I'm alive. Just busy.

              People, stay safe from Gustav.
              I'm not weird, I'm limited edition.

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                Originally posted by M-CharmedAlantian View Post
                I was hearing about that hurricane, which part of the Gulf is the hurricane is at? I'm praying to God to ensure your safety those of you in the hurricane's path
                Currently it's pounding Louisiana...from what the forecasters are saying, it's a "Monster of a Storm"...worse than Katrina.

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                  Originally posted by Scary Kitty View Post
                  As of now, we're tentatively set to watch "Hide and Seek" and "Thirty Eight Minutes" on Sunday, September 14. Same time, 2pm EST, 11am PST. So, the weekend after next.

                  And hopefully, we'll make the episodic post-a-thon a regular weekend occurrence after that.
                  Any chance of trying different times?
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                    Eri: "It's kinda like they had gold in everything they could have done, and yet for some reason, they let it slip through their fingers because they didn't quite know how to mesh it all together completely, characters and story. Which is why I don't feel like they realized how innovative they actually were being with Weir. To me, it seems like they viewed her as the girl who, based on their 'overall scheme' didn't do anything but sit in Atlantis, when beneath the surface they actually had so, so much more. "

                    Completely agree. Isn't it weird that the guys come up with this phenomenal new type of female character, that isn't about the Lara Croft type sex appeal and/or guns blasting heroism, but they squander that potential? Seriously, I want to cry when I think about the waste of having her 'sit in Atlantis'. :'[

                    Originally posted by Reiko View Post
                    What I want to see from female characters in SciFi are smart women with flaws, and while they may kick ass, be in a job dominated by men, (or heck just being a female character on a Sci Fi show) they still retain their femininity without being over-the-top. Put simply.
                    That describes exactly the type of women that I absolutely ADORE and yet in the rare few shows I find someone worthy of adulation and worship, they end up being sidelined for most of the show, usually in favor of macho men or a sexier younger female.

                    [Roslin of BSG, female president, which is pretty awesome, but most of the attention is on the military dudes or on which female cylon is sleeping with who now; Janeway of ST:VOY, female captain, again awesome, and she actually got a heckload more screentime than usual with female characters, but though she had the top-job and important role in the show, her feminity suffered for it. They had to bring in Seven to amp up the sex factor and then all of a sudden, Janeway's lost touch with her emotions and her connection to the crew and she's this robot that functions on autopilot]

                    With SGA, it feels like we're meant to love and adore Teyla, who's the one running around with a gun or beating up guys in a sports bra and slit skirts, but though I liked the occasional flashes of personality she got to show, they never really explored her character or flaws like they should've, it was almost disrespectful like 'HEY, check out the alien babe! Who cares about 'character' or 'emotional arcs', just see how hot she is!'.

                    It was so much easier for me to love Elizabeth but they didn't give the sort of focus to her that I feel she deserved, or that they MEANT to- I was just watching the season 1 features again and one of the writers made a big deal out of how they wanted a FEMALE leader, and in particular, a female CIVILIAN leader and how this set up interesting dynamics to explore and conflicts to examine and all that sort of thing, then they never really made good on that promise in the whole idea. He made a big deal about her role as negotiator, then in the show, everyone from Shep to Teyla to frakking BATES got to negotiate and deal with people, and the woman whose job it is was rarely given a chance to display her expertise in the field. Daniel was an archeologist or anthropologist or whatever, and he was given opportunities to show off his knowledge and his diplomatic skills in every SG-1 ep so it's not like they couldn't figure out a way to make her a more central part of the show, it just seems like 'hey, token female character in position of power, what more do we need to do? We've checked off that item on our list, let's move on and get to the alien baddies and big explosions and forget about trying to be smarter or more cutting edge with our development of female leaders in sci-fi'.

                    Ok, I'm glad we HAVE Elizabeth at all, she's unique and I haven't seen anyone like her on tv before, and the fact that she exists is something I acknowledge a debt to the writers for- I'm not taking that away from the writers of the show. [Better to have love and lost than never to have love at all...?]

                    I'm just sad they couldn't develop more of her when there was so much potential.

                    Originally posted by gateraid View Post

                    One can argue that the women of SGA fill the stereotypical caring roles. I guess that's a valid criticism, but look at the way they are written. Compare Kate to Troi (not the best comparison, but I don't watch a lot of sci-fi). Troi put me off tv counsellors by being written inconsistently (mostly because she had nothing to do), saying things that were glaringly obvious, and generally proving to be incompetent in all facets of starship operations. Kate made me like them again. She's compassionate, but she's damned good at her job. Every word out of her mouth is worthwhile. She's not wishy washy either, and everybody respects her.
                    Originally posted by justhere1971 View Post
                    In the same vein you could argue they have tried to play Elizabeth & Teyla front & center in some episode. I don't think sci-fi in general is the only genre plagued by the inequality in writing women. Even shows centered around women leads sometimes stumble in writing them.

                    I would agree with what gateraid has said. You have to go by who was suppose to be the leads and work yourself backwards. McKay & Sheppard were meant to be front & center, and that's how they were portrayed. I think ultimately they don't know how to write a well rounded female character. Take Scully. She was a strong female character, yet we find her getting ditched by Mulder at all times. Do you think in RL if someone consistently did that, anyone would put up with it?

                    I absolutely disliked the Troi character on ST. Like GR said, she always stated the obvious. Drove me crazy. I never understood her purpose.

                    Anyway ultimately the story was about exploring the Pegasus galaxy & Atlantis... in the end they really haven't done either.
                    Hee, we're all agreed- Troi hurts our collective brains? Her role was pretty useless, [like if someone attacks them, I can see her going 'Captain, they feel hostile towards us...I'm sensing some aggression...'] and then when they tried to make her more interesting by having relationships with random people and making a love triangle with the main characters...if that's the only way to make a character interesting, they're in trouble, that's all I can say.

                    I don't remember many eps with Teyla and Elizabeth's relationships being explored...I mean, I thought this was an ensemble show, but it ended up being the McShep hour, pretty much. The writers kinda got into this 'oh, Sheppard and McKay banter is FUUUNNN, let's focus on that to the exclusion of all the other characters' relationships! Heck, let's focus onto those two and shove everyone else to the side'. Which is sad, considering how much the women had in common and how interesting it would've been to delve into that. It's irritating that Torri and Rachel were apparently going to the writers asking for scenes together, like Teyla showing Elizabeth how to fight with the...uh...bantos rods [?] and then for some reason we have RONON showing MCKAY how to fight in Vengeance...wtf? What a wasted opportunity. Yes, McKay's a main character and they love writing his whining and snarking and OTTness, but for goodness, toss the women a bone now and then.

                    Omg, ITA with the Scully thing...if it wasn't obvious how much they cared about each other, I'd be begging her to leave Mulder for jerking her around like that all the time, EVERY TIME.

                    I wish they'd done more 'at home' stories, that could've involved Elizabeth. I mean, they did one or two, Hot Zone comes to mind...but this was supposed to be learning about the city of the Ancients and exploring the Pegasus Galaxy, as JT said, and I found that premise so exciting, but they never followed through on that either.
                    'I am frightened that the flame of hate will burn me
                    will scorch my pride, scar my heart
                    It will burn and I cannot put it out...'


                    Sig by Falcon Horus- thank you!

                    my LJ of squee *myspace of angst * my fic of random

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                      Originally posted by Eri13 View Post

                      Spoiler:


                      However, caveat--I think what a lot of people have to remember is--unless you were willing to accept Michelle Morgan as your new version of Weir, there was no way to have Elizabeth 'back' because they'd gotten rid of Torri and she didn't opt to return. There were a million ways to have Elizabeth returned to life--including never having killed her in the first place--but the situation being what it was, Elizabeth creating a new version of herself would not have worked without Torri, just because everyone in the known universe would have said 'why would Weir recreate a body that wasn't her original face?' It's my only fear for the movies, if they decide to try an Elizabeth story and then Torri doesn't come back--can they make Weir 'human' again? My hope is they can and can explain it plausibly.

                      Although I don't know what my hopes are right now. I wish I'd hear something about somebody. Waiting sucks.

                      I hope that they have a Weir storyline in one of the movies…it’d be nice to have John Sheppard and the Search for the Real Elizabeth Weir, a la Indiana Jones, lol. The thing is, from what I’ve heard in interviews, the objection Torri had was that they weren’t using Weir effectively- come on, the universal letdown of her 20 second-one line of dialogue appearance in BAMSR demonstrates that pretty clearly- and that they were toying with people, dragging on the ‘is she alive, is she dead’ thing long past interest. If they had a proper story which involved bringing back the real Elizabeth and doing something constructive with her, she might want to come back. Considering the movie formats, there’s more a hope of her returning there than in a prospective season 6, because there was no way they were going to bring her back full-time in a proper season [even though I had no objection with the way she was maintained before- if we could’ve had three more seasons of her the way she was in season 3, that would have been good enough; not ideal, but sufficient, you know?]

                      Wishful thinking, I admit, but that's all I have to go on for now. *sighs* I agree, waiting sucks, and the whole not knowing and trying to keep positive is awfully hard... *huggles*
                      'I am frightened that the flame of hate will burn me
                      will scorch my pride, scar my heart
                      It will burn and I cannot put it out...'


                      Sig by Falcon Horus- thank you!

                      my LJ of squee *myspace of angst * my fic of random

                      My OTP forever, by Stef, who is awesome:
                      Spoiler:

                      Thanks, Stef!

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                        Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                        I don't want you to alter, I just like to add something... No need to alter, unless you really feel like you want to. And shy is my middle name, I fear.
                        Feel free to add (after all, I love you ). I value your opinion. Mine isn't 'right'. One can only have an informed opinion if they listen to others.

                        I completely agree.
                        I'm certainly not saying the show isn't sexist. There's an element of it there, as there is in any show. This is no doubt a gross generalisation, but I think that men are drawn to 'hot bods' more than women are, hence why actresses have to wear tighter clothes and pay more attention to their figure. While women might admire the odd bit off beefcake (or girlcake?), it's not such a big factor, hence the clothes. It's hard to look realistic firing a P-90 (or whatever) with a low cut BDU. Or to look like you could realistically throw down against a much larger opponent when your arms are like sticks.

                        Hell, as popular as AT is, she wasn't given the lead role in s9 because they wanted a guy to be in charge (there were some other issues involved, but thats about what it boils down to). And this is from PTW that from all accounts love her. Ouch.

                        Who is she, and what show?
                        Commander Dr Crusher, TNG. The quote that stood out was something like (it was a few years ago now) "sometimes I look at the scripts and think yes they are incredibly sexist, but then I think that what we see on screen is meant to be a reflection of the society we live in today, not 400 yrs from now". I've never looked at tv the same way since then.
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                          I should have hit preview post before posting. Borgprincess those were two excellent posts. Also, you've made me realise that Keller is the new Troi. Uggghhh.

                          You're right. Even with all the other things they've done, we really should thank them for Elizabeth Weir. She really was a unique character (IMO). For that, I really do thank BW. He is good at creating characters. Keeping them, not so much (unless he came up with Keller, in which case he's dead to me)
                          sigpic

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                            Originally posted by Eri13 View Post
                            I see your points and I definitely see shows that are worse. From my end, I just get a little bothered by people so obviously sticking to archetypes because it's easier. In Sci-fi, why does there always have to be:

                            1) The handsome, adorable, smart mouthed hero
                            2) The overly exciteable geek
                            3) The battle chick
                            4) The loveable, intelligent medic
                            5) The non-talking warrior dude
                            6) The overly understanding, always correct advice giver
                            7) The wise, level-headed leader

                            If you go back to your favorite shows, you'll find at least 3 or 4 of these. Let's take Firefly. 1) Captain Mal 2) Wash (or Kaylee) 3) Zoe 4) Simon 5) Jayne or River 6) Shepherd Book. Mal I guess could fit in 7, but really there wasn't one of those. Now that being pointed out, I have to say that Firefly is one of my absolute favorite shows and a testament to great sci-fi writing. But I think it shows that people find these stereotypes appealing and constantly write to them.

                            Which is why I bolded what you said up there, because ITA. Elizabeth didn't fit any of those, especially not 7, because she wasn't an experienced leader a la Picard or Hammond, but she was placed in that role. And she didn't do the stereotypical Janeway stuff she might have been expected to do. I loved it. I don't mean to sound snobbish, but it takes a lot for me to really get devoted to a show. Characters have to really win me over for me to accept a show that doesn't have amazing writing.

                            SGA doesn't strike me as award-winning writing, but the characters--I really enjoyed the actors, and John and Elizabeth in particular. Elizabeth for what you mentioned above, and John because he didn't have an ego-element to him, which seems to go hand-in-hand with that sci-fi hero stereotype. He's basically a prince charming figure, which for some reason is really rare when I think about it. Many male leads have to grow up or grow out of their selfishness, and John really didn't have to do that. But his character was still fleshed out, he wasn't a cardboard cutout of a hero--just those little things about him, like his accepting his post at McMurdo or his sort of carefree smarts--made him unique, too. He's much more archetyped than Elizabeth, though, who I find almost incomparable in terms of any show. I can't even really think of any comparison right now--maybe Juliet from LOST, who remains an interesting figure in my mind. Maybe if I thought about it more.

                            I don't SGA nearly as bad as some shows, and one of the strengths of the SG series from the first movie have been their characters. Even within the archetypes they're generally winning personalities. I think the travesty here, as FH has point out so many times, is how they've gone to waste. It wasn't that they created a simple 'battle babe' in Teyla, it's that they honestly really didn't, but because of executive decisions, they never really took the opportunity to develop her more. Instead she got shuttled to a few 'choice' episodes and then remains a battle babe in the back. But those few episodes demonstate where she could have gone in the long run. How interesting Ronon would have been if we'd really driven into the emotions of his loss on Sateda and how they affected his position on Atlantis. I'm not talking more Ronon episodes, I'm talking a few more Ronon moments. They could have taken those archetypes, as they did with John, and really sort of change the face of them. Or they could have redefined them, as they did with Elizabeth.

                            What makes me upset is they didn't. It's kinda like they had gold in everything they could have done, and yet for some reason, they let it slip through their fingers because they didn't quite know how to mesh it all together completely, characters and story. Which is why I don't feel like they realized how innovative they actually were being with Weir. To me, it seems like they viewed her as the girl who, based on their 'overall scheme' didn't do anything but sit in Atlantis, when beneath the surface they actually had so, so much more
                            .
                            I'm a hard sell too, and was sceptical of SGA. Rising won me over straight away. Joe & Torri have great chemistry, and you're right about both their characters being atypical. There was an interview with RL in NZ 2?yrs ago, and the interviewer did this 20min summation of the show (I'm not kidding) and I realised what a silly premise the entire show is (and lost a little bit of respect for myself), but it illustrated that I watch for the characters rather than the 'action'.

                            As for the second bolded part, you sum it up perfectly
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                              Well, well, well. Our lovely thread is asleep? That's a no - no.

                              Since scary kitty isn't around someone has to toss fic recs and today allow me to do it. I served my duty as a fic reccer for stargateficrec last month, in sparky category of course, and this is one of the fics I recced:

                              This story focuses on Elizabeth reaching her moral breaking point. John is the one who serves as her moral compass and I love the role reversal in this one. The author is damn good at pushing Elizabeth to her breaking point, it's very realistic and the connection she painted is more than interpersonal liking or even love - it's the connection that helps you stay who you're supposed to be. It shows us Elizabeth's weaknesses without making her weak and John's strength without him overpowering Elizabeth.

                              Make sure to read Breathe by witchofthedogs.

                              And since we're discussing serious stuff, here's a topic that's nagging me for some time now. If Elizabeth and John were married, can you imagine their marriage failing and falling apart? Can you imagine reasons why?

                              When I started contemplating this, the first obvious reason would be betrayal of some kind, cheating in particular - but I don't see them doing that to each other. Somehow it seems too prosaic and too simple. Emotional decay and withdrawal and isolation seem much more of a probable cause for this to happen. Love is like a plant, it needs to be tended and cared for and if one neglects it, love can fade.... what do you guys think? Can you see John and Elizabeth falling apart? Can you see the reasons? Can you imagine them fighting to save what was left of their love?
                              I'm not weird, I'm limited edition.

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                                I would reply in some coherent way if I could but since PHP and MySQL aren't cooperating with my stupid brain, and Carter and Allison (Eureka) having way too much fun with a couple of plotbunnies in there too... I'd say it's safer for me to just read anyone else's answers.

                                *disappears to meet with Ben&Jerry*
                                Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

                                Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

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