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    To your points on sexism in SGA, I agree with you to a large extent, but to be fair to the show, I'd have to say that it is a lot better than many other shows. Not perfect, perhaps not even good, but certainly better than a much higher rated show like CSI Miami (I'll use it as an example due to my being unfortunate enough to see 10mins of it last night).

    The lead is some pale ginger-headed old dude, who speaks at two words per minute for dramatic effect. Seriously, morse code would be quicker. The women are slim, attractive, and fill the support roles. They ask, he answers. And while part of that is because he is 'the lead' and all the others are technically 'supporting cast' (male & female), it is still grating to watch (among other reasons).

    Yes, SGA women are attractive. But not only the women. Probably the ugliest guy on SGA to date has been Col Everett (or that smarmy fat Olesian leader), but generally I would consider them to be atypical. Come on, not one of the regulars has a beer gut. And Shep's hair??

    Actually, another show to compare with is NCIS. One could be forgiven for thinking that Gibbs has some of Lucius' stash, given that every woman over 35 falls at his feet.

    One can argue that the women of SGA fill the stereotypical caring roles. I guess that's a valid criticism, but look at the way they are written. Compare Kate to Troi (not the best comparison, but I don't watch a lot of sci-fi). Troi put me off tv counsellors by being written inconsistently (mostly because she had nothing to do), saying things that were glaringly obvious, and generally proving to be incompetent in all facets of starship operations. Kate made me like them again. She's compassionate, but she's damned good at her job. Every word out of her mouth is worthwhile. She's not wishy washy either, and everybody respects her.

    Teyla was meant to be SGA's Teal'C. She does say some odd things sometimes, but if you look at her with that in mind, she's written a hell of a lot better than he was in the early seasons. I do have some grizzles about her character (mostly in that she's not being used properly) but I'd take her over Teal'C hands down.

    Compare Elizabeth to ?? IDK?? She's truly an enigma in television. Strong, believable and feminine. There are too few characters like her.

    Yes, saying that the men are the hero's and them women are the damsel's is valid, but that's not the whole picture. As it stands at the moment, the two stars are Shep & McKay. They are the ones that have to look good, and by default every other character has to be weaker in comparison. Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka, Lorne are never going to outshine McShep. Hell, not even Carter could get some of that action.

    I realise the irony in my defending the show, that was never my intention. I don't consider it to be a leader in this area, just not a serious perpetrator. The badly written characters aren't exclusive to women. And while there are different forms of sexism other than blatantly saying "you can't do this because you are a woman" I like to think that on tv at least I am smart enough to recognise when said behaviour is being employed. Not always, but there's always room for improvement
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      At least the women in CSI:Miami and NCIS are being developed and get to have their time to play front and center, more than once. In my opinion of course...
      Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

      Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

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        In the same vein you could argue they have tried to play Elizabeth & Teyla front & center in some episode. I don't think sci-fi in general is the only genre plagued by the inequality in writing women. Even shows centered around women leads sometimes stumble in writing them.

        I would agree with what gateraid has said. You have to go by who was suppose to be the leads and work yourself backwards. McKay & Sheppard were meant to be front & center, and that's how they were portrayed. I think ultimately they don't know how to write a well rounded female character. Take Scully. She was a strong female character, yet we find her getting ditched by Mulder at all times. Do you think in RL if someone consistently did that, anyone would put up with it?

        I absolutely disliked the Troi character on ST. Like GR said, she always stated the obvious. Drove me crazy. I never understood her purpose.

        Anyway ultimately the story was about exploring the Pegasus galaxy & Atlantis... in the end they really haven't done either.
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          Originally posted by gateraid View Post
          To your points on sexism in SGA, I agree with you to a large extent, but to be fair to the show, I'd have to say that it is a lot better than many other shows. Not perfect, perhaps not even good, but certainly better than a much higher rated show like CSI Miami (I'll use it as an example due to my being unfortunate enough to see 10mins of it last night).

          The lead is some pale ginger-headed old dude, who speaks at two words per minute for dramatic effect. Seriously, morse code would be quicker. The women are slim, attractive, and fill the support roles. They ask, he answers. And while part of that is because he is 'the lead' and all the others are technically 'supporting cast' (male & female), it is still grating to watch (among other reasons).

          Yes, SGA women are attractive. But not only the women. Probably the ugliest guy on SGA to date has been Col Everett (or that smarmy fat Olesian leader), but generally I would consider them to be atypical. Come on, not one of the regulars has a beer gut. And Shep's hair??

          Actually, another show to compare with is NCIS. One could be forgiven for thinking that Gibbs has some of Lucius' stash, given that every woman over 35 falls at his feet.

          One can argue that the women of SGA fill the stereotypical caring roles. I guess that's a valid criticism, but look at the way they are written. Compare Kate to Troi (not the best comparison, but I don't watch a lot of sci-fi). Troi put me off tv counsellors by being written inconsistently (mostly because she had nothing to do), saying things that were glaringly obvious, and generally proving to be incompetent in all facets of starship operations. Kate made me like them again. She's compassionate, but she's damned good at her job. Every word out of her mouth is worthwhile. She's not wishy washy either, and everybody respects her.

          Teyla was meant to be SGA's Teal'C. She does say some odd things sometimes, but if you look at her with that in mind, she's written a hell of a lot better than he was in the early seasons. I do have some grizzles about her character (mostly in that she's not being used properly) but I'd take her over Teal'C hands down.

          Compare Elizabeth to ?? IDK?? She's truly an enigma in television. Strong, believable and feminine. There are too few characters like her.

          Yes, saying that the men are the hero's and them women are the damsel's is valid, but that's not the whole picture. As it stands at the moment, the two stars are Shep & McKay. They are the ones that have to look good, and by default every other character has to be weaker in comparison. Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka, Lorne are never going to outshine McShep. Hell, not even Carter could get some of that action.

          I realise the irony in my defending the show, that was never my intention. I don't consider it to be a leader in this area, just not a serious perpetrator. The badly written characters aren't exclusive to women. And while there are different forms of sexism other than blatantly saying "you can't do this because you are a woman" I like to think that on tv at least I am smart enough to recognise when said behaviour is being employed. Not always, but there's always room for improvement
          I agree on most things here, and let me add - not everything in SGA is sexism, and not everything about female characters is done poorly. But the fact that female characters are underused and poorly written, and often pushed into stereotypical pigholes stays.

          SGA is doing far better than some TV shows (Troi makes me cry! Seriously! Could they write her any more stupid or boring or predictable, not to mention useless, and she is doing my profession on top of everything?!) but when it comes to writing and portraying women, I find they are far behind men (who are also treated poorly. We still don't know too many important things about lead male character.)

          We take sexism for granted in a way - I hear people saying "ah, you can't have a better world, it's a fact of life" too many times. To me every perpetrator is a serious perpetrator because as long as we consider some of these subtle and underlying implications toward women being less important, the world is going to look like that. Women are paid less than men, and that's just one example among thousands. It's not right and the fact that we don'0t react to it means we consider it to be a normal state of affairs. As far as I'm concerned sexism isn't a good thing on any TV show, no matter the amount.

          And that is why characters like Elizabeth Weir are really important.
          I'm not weird, I'm limited edition.

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            How are we all coping with the news this season is the last sga season? And the fact it's a different actress playing Elizabeth? How good is her portrayal when based on Torri's? What will happen to the dynamics of it? That's what I'm interested in seeing but I can't even see it. I don't have sky or sky one!
            sigpicI love the Lord my God with all my heart!!!!http://www.geocities.com/Lessien2002 Save stargate sg1!!!! Let us shippers have a good resolution please!!!! My fanfiction http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1023184/- there's more to come!
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            http://www.fanfiction.net/c2/37559/3/0/1/-the c2 community sam/jack relationship community.
            http://www.petitiononline.com/P3X595/petition.html
            Now is the time for us to shine, to shine with the power of Christ Divine! The Lord has promised us revival and it WILL come!

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              How much are the boxsets?
              sigpicI love the Lord my God with all my heart!!!!http://www.geocities.com/Lessien2002 Save stargate sg1!!!! Let us shippers have a good resolution please!!!! My fanfiction http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1023184/- there's more to come!
              My GW fanfiction-http://www.gateworld.net/fanfic/arch...ogetherat.html
              http://www.fanfiction.net/c2/37559/3/0/1/-the c2 community sam/jack relationship community.
              http://www.petitiononline.com/P3X595/petition.html
              Now is the time for us to shine, to shine with the power of Christ Divine! The Lord has promised us revival and it WILL come!

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                We're losing sga!!! NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
                sigpicI love the Lord my God with all my heart!!!!http://www.geocities.com/Lessien2002 Save stargate sg1!!!! Let us shippers have a good resolution please!!!! My fanfiction http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1023184/- there's more to come!
                My GW fanfiction-http://www.gateworld.net/fanfic/arch...ogetherat.html
                http://www.fanfiction.net/c2/37559/3/0/1/-the c2 community sam/jack relationship community.
                http://www.petitiononline.com/P3X595/petition.html
                Now is the time for us to shine, to shine with the power of Christ Divine! The Lord has promised us revival and it WILL come!

                Comment


                  Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                  To your points on sexism in SGA, I agree with you to a large extent, but to be fair to the show, I'd have to say that it is a lot better than many other shows. Not perfect, perhaps not even good, but certainly better than a much higher rated show like CSI Miami (I'll use it as an example due to my being unfortunate enough to see 10mins of it last night).

                  The lead is some pale ginger-headed old dude, who speaks at two words per minute for dramatic effect. Seriously, morse code would be quicker. The women are slim, attractive, and fill the support roles. They ask, he answers. And while part of that is because he is 'the lead' and all the others are technically 'supporting cast' (male & female), it is still grating to watch (among other reasons).

                  Yes, SGA women are attractive. But not only the women. Probably the ugliest guy on SGA to date has been Col Everett (or that smarmy fat Olesian leader), but generally I would consider them to be atypical. Come on, not one of the regulars has a beer gut. And Shep's hair??

                  Actually, another show to compare with is NCIS. One could be forgiven for thinking that Gibbs has some of Lucius' stash, given that every woman over 35 falls at his feet.

                  One can argue that the women of SGA fill the stereotypical caring roles. I guess that's a valid criticism, but look at the way they are written. Compare Kate to Troi (not the best comparison, but I don't watch a lot of sci-fi). Troi put me off tv counsellors by being written inconsistently (mostly because she had nothing to do), saying things that were glaringly obvious, and generally proving to be incompetent in all facets of starship operations. Kate made me like them again. She's compassionate, but she's damned good at her job. Every word out of her mouth is worthwhile. She's not wishy washy either, and everybody respects her.

                  Teyla was meant to be SGA's Teal'C. She does say some odd things sometimes, but if you look at her with that in mind, she's written a hell of a lot better than he was in the early seasons. I do have some grizzles about her character (mostly in that she's not being used properly) but I'd take her over Teal'C hands down.

                  Compare Elizabeth to ?? IDK?? She's truly an enigma in television. Strong, believable and feminine. There are too few characters like her.

                  Yes, saying that the men are the hero's and them women are the damsel's is valid, but that's not the whole picture. As it stands at the moment, the two stars are Shep & McKay. They are the ones that have to look good, and by default every other character has to be weaker in comparison. Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka, Lorne are never going to outshine McShep. Hell, not even Carter could get some of that action.

                  I realise the irony in my defending the show, that was never my intention. I don't consider it to be a leader in this area, just not a serious perpetrator. The badly written characters aren't exclusive to women. And while there are different forms of sexism other than blatantly saying "you can't do this because you are a woman" I like to think that on tv at least I am smart enough to recognise when said behaviour is being employed. Not always, but there's always room for improvement
                  Yes I agree about Teyla and Elizabeth and good point about the action.
                  sigpicI love the Lord my God with all my heart!!!!http://www.geocities.com/Lessien2002 Save stargate sg1!!!! Let us shippers have a good resolution please!!!! My fanfiction http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1023184/- there's more to come!
                  My GW fanfiction-http://www.gateworld.net/fanfic/arch...ogetherat.html
                  http://www.fanfiction.net/c2/37559/3/0/1/-the c2 community sam/jack relationship community.
                  http://www.petitiononline.com/P3X595/petition.html
                  Now is the time for us to shine, to shine with the power of Christ Divine! The Lord has promised us revival and it WILL come!

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                    At least the women in CSI:Miami and NCIS are being developed and get to have their time to play front and center, more than once. In my opinion of course...
                    Don't be shy Falcon. If you think I'm a bit off in my assesment, say so. I credit GW (or more correctly the posters of GW) for altering my views on some issues.

                    But i'd argue that a woman who turns to goo in the presence of a man is written no better than one who is pushed to the background. Both are being ornaments for whoever is front & centre.

                    And I agree that a lot of it is subtle. I can remember watching an interview with Gates McFadden (an archived one) where she commented on the scripts, saying that yes they were sexist, but they were meant to be a reflection of the society of the day. That was a show that seemed to perfect the art of sidelining their female characters, even though they did prove that they could rise to the occasion (well not Troi). In what is lauded as one of the best eps (or two eps) of the show (TBOBW), the highly competent and ambitious Shelby is depicted as "an old mans fantasy". Thank goodness things aren't written that way any more. Hell, even Picard patronisingly calls Bev "captain" when he leaves her in command (while she goes on to destroy the borg ship and save all their asses).

                    A more current example may be House. Cuddy is well written - she may have the hots for House, but she's his equal (in every sense), and has his respect. Cameron on the other hand, while I like her, is constantly plauged by her affection for the caned physician, like some lovesick schoolgirl.
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                      Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                      To your points on sexism in SGA, I agree with you to a large extent, but to be fair to the show, I'd have to say that it is a lot better than many other shows. Not perfect, perhaps not even good, but certainly better than a much higher rated show like CSI Miami (I'll use it as an example due to my being unfortunate enough to see 10mins of it last night).

                      The lead is some pale ginger-headed old dude, who speaks at two words per minute for dramatic effect. Seriously, morse code would be quicker. The women are slim, attractive, and fill the support roles. They ask, he answers. And while part of that is because he is 'the lead' and all the others are technically 'supporting cast' (male & female), it is still grating to watch (among other reasons).

                      Yes, SGA women are attractive. But not only the women. Probably the ugliest guy on SGA to date has been Col Everett (or that smarmy fat Olesian leader), but generally I would consider them to be atypical. Come on, not one of the regulars has a beer gut. And Shep's hair??

                      Actually, another show to compare with is NCIS. One could be forgiven for thinking that Gibbs has some of Lucius' stash, given that every woman over 35 falls at his feet.

                      One can argue that the women of SGA fill the stereotypical caring roles. I guess that's a valid criticism, but look at the way they are written. Compare Kate to Troi (not the best comparison, but I don't watch a lot of sci-fi). Troi put me off tv counsellors by being written inconsistently (mostly because she had nothing to do), saying things that were glaringly obvious, and generally proving to be incompetent in all facets of starship operations. Kate made me like them again. She's compassionate, but she's damned good at her job. Every word out of her mouth is worthwhile. She's not wishy washy either, and everybody respects her.

                      Teyla was meant to be SGA's Teal'C. She does say some odd things sometimes, but if you look at her with that in mind, she's written a hell of a lot better than he was in the early seasons. I do have some grizzles about her character (mostly in that she's not being used properly) but I'd take her over Teal'C hands down.

                      Compare Elizabeth to ?? IDK?? She's truly an enigma in television. Strong, believable and feminine. There are too few characters like her.

                      Yes, saying that the men are the hero's and them women are the damsel's is valid, but that's not the whole picture. As it stands at the moment, the two stars are Shep & McKay. They are the ones that have to look good, and by default every other character has to be weaker in comparison. Teyla, Ronon, Zelenka, Lorne are never going to outshine McShep. Hell, not even Carter could get some of that action.

                      I realise the irony in my defending the show, that was never my intention. I don't consider it to be a leader in this area, just not a serious perpetrator. The badly written characters aren't exclusive to women. And while there are different forms of sexism other than blatantly saying "you can't do this because you are a woman" I like to think that on tv at least I am smart enough to recognise when said behaviour is being employed. Not always, but there's always room for improvement
                      I see your points and I definitely see shows that are worse. From my end, I just get a little bothered by people so obviously sticking to archetypes because it's easier. In Sci-fi, why does there always have to be:

                      1) The handsome, adorable, smart mouthed hero
                      2) The overly exciteable geek
                      3) The battle chick
                      4) The loveable, intelligent medic
                      5) The non-talking warrior dude
                      6) The overly understanding, always correct advice giver
                      7) The wise, level-headed leader

                      If you go back to your favorite shows, you'll find at least 3 or 4 of these. Let's take Firefly. 1) Captain Mal 2) Wash (or Kaylee) 3) Zoe 4) Simon 5) Jayne or River 6) Shepherd Book. Mal I guess could fit in 7, but really there wasn't one of those. Now that being pointed out, I have to say that Firefly is one of my absolute favorite shows and a testament to great sci-fi writing. But I think it shows that people find these stereotypes appealing and constantly write to them.

                      Which is why I bolded what you said up there, because ITA. Elizabeth didn't fit any of those, especially not 7, because she wasn't an experienced leader a la Picard or Hammond, but she was placed in that role. And she didn't do the stereotypical Janeway stuff she might have been expected to do. I loved it. I don't mean to sound snobbish, but it takes a lot for me to really get devoted to a show. Characters have to really win me over for me to accept a show that doesn't have amazing writing.

                      SGA doesn't strike me as award-winning writing, but the characters--I really enjoyed the actors, and John and Elizabeth in particular. Elizabeth for what you mentioned above, and John because he didn't have an ego-element to him, which seems to go hand-in-hand with that sci-fi hero stereotype. He's basically a prince charming figure, which for some reason is really rare when I think about it. Many male leads have to grow up or grow out of their selfishness, and John really didn't have to do that. But his character was still fleshed out, he wasn't a cardboard cutout of a hero--just those little things about him, like his accepting his post at McMurdo or his sort of carefree smarts--made him unique, too. He's much more archetyped than Elizabeth, though, who I find almost incomparable in terms of any show. I can't even really think of any comparison right now--maybe Juliet from LOST, who remains an interesting figure in my mind. Maybe if I thought about it more.

                      I don't SGA nearly as bad as some shows, and one of the strengths of the SG series from the first movie have been their characters. Even within the archetypes they're generally winning personalities. I think the travesty here, as FH has point out so many times, is how they've gone to waste. It wasn't that they created a simple 'battle babe' in Teyla, it's that they honestly really didn't, but because of executive decisions, they never really took the opportunity to develop her more. Instead she got shuttled to a few 'choice' episodes and then remains a battle babe in the back. But those few episodes demonstate where she could have gone in the long run. How interesting Ronon would have been if we'd really driven into the emotions of his loss on Sateda and how they affected his position on Atlantis. I'm not talking more Ronon episodes, I'm talking a few more Ronon moments. They could have taken those archetypes, as they did with John, and really sort of change the face of them. Or they could have redefined them, as they did with Elizabeth.

                      What makes me upset is they didn't. It's kinda like they had gold in everything they could have done, and yet for some reason, they let it slip through their fingers because they didn't quite know how to mesh it all together completely, characters and story. Which is why I don't feel like they realized how innovative they actually were being with Weir. To me, it seems like they viewed her as the girl who, based on their 'overall scheme' didn't do anything but sit in Atlantis, when beneath the surface they actually had so, so much more.
                      Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!

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                        Quick Question--Torri and Rainbow Sun Francks were supposed to be at Dragon*Con this year--I didn't see a thread for it on GW. Does anyone know if there are any reports out about the panel?
                        Visit SGArising.com to read our virtual continuation of the Atlantis series!

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                          Eri, they are still listed on the guest list @ Dragon*Con site.

                          http://www.dragoncon.org/dc_guests_list.php
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                            Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                            Don't be shy Falcon. If you think I'm a bit off in my assesment, say so. I credit GW (or more correctly the posters of GW) for altering my views on some issues.
                            I don't want you to alter, I just like to add something... No need to alter, unless you really feel like you want to. And shy is my middle name, I fear.

                            Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                            But i'd argue that a woman who turns to goo in the presence of a man is written no better than one who is pushed to the background. Both are being ornaments for whoever is front & centre.
                            I completely agree.

                            Originally posted by gateraid View Post
                            I can remember watching an interview with Gates McFadden (an archived one) where she commented on the scripts, saying that yes they were sexist, but they were meant to be a reflection of the society of the day.
                            Who is she, and what show?
                            Last edited by Falcon Horus; 31 August 2008, 12:50 PM.
                            Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

                            Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

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                              Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                              I don't want to alter, I just like to add something... No need to alter, unless you really feel like you want to. And shy is my middle name, I fear.
                              Bad for you

                              Originally posted by Falcon Horus View Post
                              Who is she, and what show?
                              Actress: Gates McFadden
                              Character: Beverly Crusher, MD
                              Show: Star Trek TNG

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                                Originally posted by Pajus View Post
                                Actress: Gates McFadden
                                Character: Beverly Crusher, MD
                                Show: Star Trek TNG
                                Thanks.
                                Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum

                                Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 10 of SG-1

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