Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Scary Kitty]

Good afternoon, Sparkies! Hope you're enjoying this fine Thursday! (Aside from busy servers that keep us from posting... grrr! )

Another Stargate!Ren update: The fourth and final installment of "The Mire" is now up.

On to Eri's CM questions:

1) Do you believe the ability to place a bomb on Atlantis--especially the way it was done in this episode--was plausible?

Yes. As we saw from the planning of the self-destruct in "The Siege," a mere bomb wouldn't have been enough to completely obliterate Atlantis. But making a ZPM go kaboom would certainly ensure that there wouldn't be enough of Atlantis left for the Wraith to reverse engineer and figure out how to get to Earth.

2) How did you feel about the enemy being a Go'uld?

With the Goa'uld having fallen pretty much by the wayside by this point over on SG-1, this was a great and unexpected twist.

3) Why do you think the writers turned this episode into old home week (aka, brought back so many previous characters)?

They needed a low-SFX bottle show.

4) Kavanaugh was particularly antagonistic in this episode. Do you think Elizabeth was right to suspect him most?

Given the really antagonistic and suspicious way he was acting, yes.

5) Do you agree with Kavanaugh's assessment of Elizabeth leading more by emotion than rational impartiality? If you do, why, and if you don't, where and how is he mistaken?

I think that Kavanaugh is partly wrong, and partly right. Elizabeth does always strive to lead with rational impartiality. She was an internationally renowned diplomat before coming to the Stargate program, and to be that good, she would need to know how to examine each side of a dispute fairly. Yet, she is human, and it's only natural for one's feelings to come to the fore, especially for a subject that she cares about strongly. But I also think that she proved in this case that she could keep her cool far better than Kavanaugh did. Crash and burn, Kavanaugh. Crash and burn.

6) Many PTB get really antsy about actually showing torture in a show that's not built for it. Do you think TPTB copped out here by having Kavanaugh faint? Or was it appropriate for the SGA audience?

As much as I would have liked to see something a little more realistic, SGA is not as heavy as some other genre shows, like Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica, which have not shied away from showing scenes of torture.

7) Did the twist at the end--the true perpetrator--catch you off guard?

Heck yeah! I totally didn't expect Caldwell; up until this point, his antagonism toward Weir and Sheppard can be very logically explained by resentment at Weir going over the heads of the SGC to get Sheppard promoted to Lt. Colonel and permanently given the post of military commander, a job that Caldwell probably otherwise would've gotten. Even so, he never seemed like a traitor.

8) Other than the obvious romantic implications Sparkies would like to see, would you have added any other 'bonding' elements to John and Elizabeth's relationship in this episode? Or was it done exactly as it should have been?

I think this episode was just right.

9) How was Teyla's storyline handled? If you approved, what did you like? If you didn't, what could have been changed to make it better?

I liked it. We got to see more of her ties to her people explored, something that has been seriously lacking for the character. I wish there could have been more, but with everything else going on, there just wasn't enough time.

10) Do you prefer these episodes--Atlantis contained--over the Pegasus-exploration episodes? Do you like more or less?

I'd prefer to see more Atlantis-based episodes. After all, the series is called Stargate Atlantis, not Stargate Pegasus Galaxy Quest. *snickers*

The whole point of the expedition was to find the city and explore its secrets. And after four years, we've seen precious little of that.

11) How does this rank for you as a Carl Binder episode? Were the relationships on or off? Is he really the writer for Sparkies? Or was there just so much going on that not everything (like a Ronan/Teyla connection) could be addressed?

One of Carl's best. Yes, there was a lot of different things going on, but it never felt rushed or that too much of one thing was crammed in at the expense of another.

And yes, Carl is the writer for Sparky.

12) Did you understand the episode when you were finished with it? How long did it take you to understand all that was going on?

Understood it perfectly the first time.

[Scary Kitty]

Alright, people, Anuna's challenge is written and published. Can be found here. Thanks to Anuna for the challenge and to Reiko for the beta

BWAHAHAHA! John's allergic to Teyla! Hah! Ooops, guess he'll never do that again!

Speaking of which. Here is my delayed response to your ways for kids to embarrass their parents. Having had a son, I should be able to come up with a bunch of these.

Spoiler:

John Sheppard walked at a leisurely pace into the infirmary and looked around as if in search of someone.

“Oh hello Colonel,” Dr Carson Beckett greeted John with a casual glance as he removed the blood pressure cuff from the arm of Colonel Samantha Carter.

“There 'ya go Colonel, everything checks out. You are free to move about the city.”

Samantha slid down from her perch on the edge of an exam table and smiled. “Thanks Carson.”

John nodded at his former boss. “Welcome back to Atlantis Colonel. I think my wife is waiting to meet with you.”

Samantha's smile grew larger and before she could reply, a small boy rushed past her and almost bowled her over before crashing into John and grabbing him around one leg with both arms.

“Daddy, daddy!” The little bundle of energy shouted. “Uncle Carson said I was perfect.”

John raised one eyebrow at the doctor as he steadied his son with a hand on top of his unruly head.

Carson laughed. “I said you were in perfect health young Nicholas.”

A roll of the eyes and a grin from John told the other two adults he understood their carefully concealed mirth. John turned his young son toward the other colonel. “What do you say to Colonel Carter, big Nick?”

Nicholas thought for a moment and then remembered the lesson his mother had been trying to instill in his 3 year old mind every time he interrupted an adult conversation. Nick wasn't sure exactly what he had done wrong this time, but his father's hand on his shoulder was telling him that he had to say that thing his mother made him repeat so many times.

“Excuse me,” Nick said hopefully, turning a very familiar set of green eyes up to the blonde lady in front of him.

“It's okay Nicholas,” she replied. “I'm glad the doctor thinks you are perfect.” Her smile was warm and made Nick feel good.

John and Carson exchanged a look, but Nick wasn't finished.

“You know what?” he asked leaning slightly toward Samantha as if to share a secret.

“No, what?” she repeated.

“I have a little penis, but my daddy has a big penis.” Nicholas illustrated his point with hands spread apart to indicate an anatomical impossibility.

John gasped. Carson laughed out loud. And Sam did her best fish impersonation. Nicholas just looked confused.

Staring back and forth among the three adults, Nicholas decided he needed to further clarify his remarks. But first he pulled open the front of his junior set of gray BDU's very much like his father's and peered inside.

“But mommy said,” he insisted.

John's ability to move returned just as he felt the heat of embarrassment spread up his neck, and he scooped his son up in his arms and headed for the exit with Carson and Sam's laughter still ringing in his ears.

*dies laughing* That's priceless! Well done!

And LiliJ, your new story is so sad! Something bad must've happened to John in the universe that this Elizabeth and the little girl is from. *shivers* I can't wait to see more!

[ddc]

Critical Mass, part III


... You notice I mentioned a cop out, and I did believe there was one. That was the scene of John coming in to find out Ronan hadn't touched Kavanaugh. Now, I don't know if that was because the writers got really tetchy about someone actually being tortured, or because there are rules about torture in broadcast (doesn't seem likely) or because they just didn't want Ronan/John/Liz to have to go that far.

For me, it was a cop out. I wasn't looking for Ronan to string up Kavanaugh, but for nothing to happen? That, for me, detracted from the power of the decision Elizabeth made. Am I being too harsh, perhaps, or sadistic? Not really--just realistic. Even if Ronan hadn't used the knife, it would have been more dramatic to have Kavanaugh be pushed around a little. This way, everyone's hands are clean, save for Elizabeth's conscience.
...

What do you think? Do you agree that Kavanaugh's lack of torture was a cop out or do you think I'm being sadistic? How did you like the song montage? Did you get confused early on with everything going on? What sparky moments did I miss? Discuss!

Kavanaugh fainting may have been a bit of a cop out, giving Elizabeth something else to weigh on her conscience. But it did set up a good rueful agreement scene between her & John. And it was entirely in character for Kavanaugh - a bit of a blowhard but a scardey cat;

Spoiler:

he also fainted when confronted by the Wraith take over in Midway in Aeason 4.

As for Laura's hair, it always seemed personnel in the City wearing Atlantis uniforms weren't required to adhere as strictly to military conventions like hair regs. Probably due to Elizabeth being in charge & John not beeing a stickler for that sort of thing. I imagine if Sumner had survived that wouldn't have been the case.

Spoiler:

Even Sam's worn her hair loose or in a pony tail when she's been in Atlantis uniform.

[Southern Red]

1) Do you believe the ability to place a bomb on Atlantis--especially the way it was done in this episode--was plausible?

Yes, and I liked the fact that it wasn't really a bomb.

2) How did you feel about the enemy being a Go'uld?


I have mixed emotions on that. It worked, but I think they are better left on SG-1.

3) Why do you think the writers turned this episode into old home week (aka, brought back so many previous characters)?

To have a number of red herrings. It gave us several to choose from as the villain.

4) Kavanaugh was particularly antagonistic in this episode. Do you think Elizabeth was right to suspect him most?

He was the logical choice considering his past behavior, but again a great red herring.

5) Do you agree with Kavanaugh's assessment of Elizabeth leading more by emotion than rational impartiality? If you do, why, and if you don't, where and how is he mistaken?

No, I think Kavanaugh confuses caring about the people you work with and who work for you as being over emotional. He is obviously a coldhearted selfish sort who would never understand Elizabeth's level of devotion to her job, her people and Atlantis.

6) Many PTB get really antsy about actually showing torture in a show that's not built for it. Do you think TPTB copped out here by having Kavanaugh faint? Or was it appropriate for the SGA audience?


They copped out. As I said before, they went for the cheap laugh. We didn't need to see prolonged suffering, but seeing Kavanaugh sweat a little would have been effective. But since he was technically innocent, this was probably best.

7) Did the twist at the end--the true perpetrator--catch you off guard?


It would have were I not a spoiler fanatic. Nice twist.

8) Other than the obvious romantic implications Sparkies would like to see, would you have added any other 'bonding' elements to John and Elizabeth's relationship in this episode? Or was it done exactly as it should have been?


I also think there was just the right amount of Sparky connection.

9) How was Teyla's storyline handled? If you approved, what did you like? If you didn't, what could have been changed to make it better?


Unlike most others, I think it brought the action to a dead halt. And the fact that her team totally ignored what was happening with her just points up her uselessness. I would love to have seen Ronon at least comfort her in the end.

10) Do you prefer these episodes--Atlantis contained--over the Pegasus-exploration episodes? Do you like more or less?


Yes yes yes. More please.

11) How does this rank for you as a Carl Binder episode? Were the relationships on or off? Is he really the writer for Sparkies? Or was there just so much going on that not everything (like a Ronan/Teyla connection) could be addressed?


Carl did a great job especially with Sparky and the Carson/Teyla connection. Missed the Spanky though. And Carl I think at this point in time writes what he is told to. Sadly.


12) Did you understand the episode when you were finished with it? How long did it take you to understand all that was going on?


I understood. I think as far as suspense goes it is one of their best. Much better than Tabula Rasa which used a similar back and forth technique but was just confusing.

[Scary Kitty]

Kavanaugh fainting may have been a bit of a cop out, giving Elizabeth something else to weigh on her conscience. But it did set up a good rueful agreement scene between her & John. And it was entirely in character for Kavanaugh - a bit of a blowhard but a scardey cat;

Spoiler:

he also fainted when confronted by the Wraith take over in Midway in Aeason 4.

A very good point. He's all bluster, but with no real, lasting substance behind it.

As for Laura's hair, it always seemed personnel in the City wearing Atlantis uniforms weren't required to adhere as strictly to military conventions like hair regs. Probably due to Elizabeth being in charge & John not beeing a stickler for that sort of thing. I imagine if Sumner had survived that wouldn't have been the case.

Spoiler:

Even Sam's worn her hair loose or in a pony tail when she's been in Atlantis uniform.

Well, civilian personnel wouldn't have had to adhere to military regs, which are pretty strict. But yeah, I seriously doubt that either Elizabeth or John cared, as long as everyone kept up basic grooming (keeping themselves clean, etc.), and it didn't interfere with doing their jobs.

As for

Spoiler:

Sam, she even mentioned to Teal'c in "Midway" how much she liked Atlantis's more laid-back atmosphere. Having been a member of SG-1 for 10 years, most of which was under Jack O'Neill's just as laid back leadership, it's no surprise that she would tend toward a little relaxation of the regs, too.

[Scary Kitty]

9) How was Teyla's storyline handled? If you approved, what did you like? If you didn't, what could have been changed to make it better?

Unlike most others, I think it brought the action to a dead halt. And the fact that her team totally ignored what was happening with her just points up her uselessness. I would love to have seen Ronon at least comfort her in the end.

I hadn't even thought of this initially, as I viewed it as more of an external storyline that was influenced by the progression of the bomb storyline (having to evacuate the Athosians, etc.), but having no effect of its own on the bomb storyline in return. But I think you're right. It's just kind of there, and because the rest of the main characters are so focused on the bomb, they have no chance to interact with Teyla and support her while she goes through this event, as Carson does.

Carl did a great job especially with Sparky and the Carson/Teyla connection. Missed the Spanky though. And Carl I think at this point in time writes what he is told to. Sadly.

Then again, it's not like he's given much to work with, now that TPTB have taken away one of his favorite muses. Poor Carl.

[Southern Red]

I hadn't even thought of this initially, as I viewed it as more of an external storyline that was influenced by the progression of the bomb storyline (having to evacuate the Athosians, etc.), but having no effect of its own on the bomb storyline in return. But I think you're right. It's just kind of there, and because the rest of the main characters are so focused on the bomb, they have no chance to interact with Teyla and support her while she goes through this event, as Carson does.



Then again, it's not like he's given much to work with, now that TPTB have taken away one of his favorite muses. Poor Carl.

*sobs* And poor us.

Oh well, tomorrow is another Sparky day.

[Scary Kitty]

*sobs* And poor us.

Oh well, tomorrow is another Sparky day.

Yeah! Screw TPTB, we don't need 'em, anyway! Except for Carl, the rest of 'em clearly are incapable of writing a realistic romance between two well-developed characters portrayed by fabulous actors who ooze enough sexual chemistry to fill the oceans of Lantea.

Long live fanfiction, the real canon of Atlantis! TPTB only wish they were as cool as we are.

[Reiko]

» Awww, that was just plain adorable Southern Red!

Critical Mass discussion:

1) Do you believe the ability to place a bomb on Atlantis--especially the way it was done in this episode--was plausible?

» Yup. I also enjoyed, and was surprised that the "bomb" wasn't actually really a "bomb" and that the whole solution was much more complex than fretting over a ticking timer with McKay arguing whether to cut the red wire or the blue wire. Which I was not expecting - the old SGA was good, but even then they could be lacking in the creativity/suspense/surprise department. The concept was great and well-executed.


2) How did you feel about the enemy being a Go'uld?

» I didn't watch much of SG1, so my perspective here may be differing from the rest of yours. So I thought of the Gould as an interesting crossover without being obnoxiously crossover-esque. I guess it was less of a shock than if the enemy was actually real Caldwell or Kavanaugh. And I personally don't find the Gould very threatening. The symbiote concept is interesting and intriguing but other than that, all they seem to do is talk in funny voices.


3) Why do you think the writers turned this episode into old home week (aka, brought back so many previous characters)?

You know, I loved it. One thing I enjoy about Atlantis is the strong cast of minor characters as members of the expedition. I am not sure exactly why the writers did it, but seeing Laura, Kavanaugh, Caldwell, Novak and even Landry and Lee made me a happy fangirl.


5) Do you agree with Kavanaugh's assessment of Elizabeth leading more by emotion than rational impartiality? If you do, why, and if you don't, where and how is he mistaken?

» I agree with Kavanaugh's assessment of Elizabeth being easily influenced and driven by her emotions as opposed to logical neutrality. I think when Elizabeth's sense of morality (what is right) versus justice (what is fair) come in conflict, morality will always come out on top because her pathos is stronger than her logos. Kav's analysis of Elizabeth being "driven by emotion, not reason" is accurate. I think at times (not all), this can be one of her weaknesses by not assessing the situations from an objective standpoint but rather factoring in prior experience and personal feelings to her descisions regarding a situation.


6) Many PTB get really antsy about actually showing torture in a show that's not built for it. Do you think TPTB copped out here by having Kavanaugh faint? Or was it appropriate for the SGA audience?

» I'm quite conflicted on this one, actually. I love that SGA doesn't get too dark (It's not 24), but on the other hand I got the craving for torture (not because I'm sadistic) because I was curious to see SGA step a bit in that direction. But they didn't - it was dipping a toe in the water then quickly pulling out. I think it was appropriate for the SGA audience, but it wouldn't do no harm if we got some "torture lite". (That sounds weird.) I guess we kind of got that in Common Ground, which makes me wonder if it was the actually torture that made the PTB antsy or rather the fact that the heroes were doing it.


8) Other than the obvious romantic implications Sparkies would like to see, would you have added any other 'bonding' elements to John and Elizabeth's relationship in this episode? Or was it done exactly as it should have been?

» I thought the Sparky was done very well in this episode. The most prominent Sparky scene is probably the last - it was short, to the point, but also thoughtful and represented John's support of Elizabeth as a leader and descision-maker brilliantly.


9) How was Teyla's storyline handled? If you approved, what did you like? If you didn't, what could have been changed to make it better?

» I liked Teyla's storyline - the one thing I hated though is her entire disconnection to the primary plot and climax. Okay, I really hated the disconnection part. I guess it can be called "filler", though brilliantly acted and done that I usually wouldn't complain about it being filler. But the disconnection was irksome. Even worse was how stupid they seemed to make Teyla to stay there while there was a bomb on the bus - erm, Atlantis. But I also liked that Carson decided to stay with her. Yes, give me my CT shippy. I only get so much of those, y'know *g*


10) Do you prefer these episodes--Atlantis contained--over the Pegasus-exploration episodes? Do you like more or less?

» My preference for one over the other for these kinds of episodes is irrelevant. What matters more to me is that episodes explore relationships between the characters, and/or they have some kind of Carson or Elizabeth involvement. Becuase, it's not just about the off-world team, folks!


11) How does this rank for you as a Carl Binder episode? Were the relationships on or off? Is he really the writer for Sparkies? Or was there just so much going on that not everything (like a Ronan/Teyla connection) could be addressed?

» I like the majority of Binder's episodes in the first three seasons, and Critical Mass is no exception. He is the writer for the Sparkies, but not just that - Binder, I think does a great job with interactions with all the characters. except *cough*Quarantine*cough* I liked my Carson/Teyla moments he wrote. Mhmm.

[Anuna]

Not this particular one but similar. Maybe I can come up with a few more fics. I like young Nick. Wonder what happened when John told his wife about this incident? Hmm?

Eh I like little Nick too. Do write more!!! I'll try to think of more stories about little Daniel

[Scary Kitty]

Good evening, Sparkies!

Got a couple of fun Sparky fic recs for you, both written by havocthecat.

First up, The Warmth of Heaven. I love the idea of Sentient!Atlantis. Most of the time, we see it in the context of how John's ATA gene allows him to interact with Atlantis's systems. But this time, it's Elizabeth who suddenly finds herself able to communicate with Atlantis, which wants to rebuild what was lost when the Ancients left the city so long ago... starting with Elizabeth and John.

Our second rec of the night is These Are The Voyages. An AU placing familiar faces from SGA (and a few from SG-1) in the Star Trek universe, set at the same time as The Original Series. Captain John Sheppard and the crew of the USS McMurdo ferry a renowned diplomat (Elizabeth, of course!) to treaty negotiations in Orion space.

They're both awesome fics, so go give them a read!

[Torri012]

Morning Pic Spam!

Spoiler:

[Anuna]

Good evening, Sparkies!

Got a couple of fun Sparky fic recs for you, both written by havocthecat.

First up, The Warmth of Heaven. I love the idea of Sentient!Atlantis. Most of the time, we see it in the context of how John's ATA gene allows him to interact with Atlantis's systems. But this time, it's Elizabeth who suddenly finds herself able to communicate with Atlantis, which wants to rebuild what was lost when the Ancients left the city so long ago... starting with Elizabeth and John.

Our second rec of the night is These Are The Voyages. An AU placing familiar faces from SGA (and a few from SG-1) in the Star Trek universe, set at the same time as The Original Series. Captain John Sheppard and the crew of the USS McMurdo ferry a renowned diplomat (Elizabeth, of course!) to treaty negotiations in Orion space.

They're both awesome fics, so go give them a read!

Oh I second rec both of these, but especially "These are the Voyages" - because Havocthecat knows the Trekverse so well, and how can you resist a fic which, among other absolutely brilliant things, mentions Admiral O'Neill who used to command a ship called USS Mikta ?

Morning Pic Spam!

Spoiler:

Wooot! Protective!John pic spam!!! But does she look like a damsel in distress? I wouldn't say so, yet John needs to be there for her! Love love love!

[Torri012]

Wooot! Protective!John pic spam!!! But does she look like a damsel in distress? I wouldn't say so, yet John needs to be there for her! Love love love!

lol anuna

you sound so.. enthusiastic today

[LiliJ]

Hmmm... I think I'll post the whole of my story once it's finished. Thanks to those of you who said lovely things about it! *blushes*

Yay, are we having a miserable day?

...sorry, but I do enjoy the angst! *hangs head* I'll go sit in the corner now...