Elizabeth Weir/John Sheppard Appreciation/Ship/Discussion Thread

[Luciana]

This thread is turning me into a shipper!

[Irish Eyes]

*stabs jt with a rusty spoon* I'll do an alternate version. Later.

Ah, the Sparky thread - where we whump each other. LOL

Hello All!

Delurking to show support for sparky! and all of us who just wont quit! Just wanted to share that eversince I discovered this thread (um.. 3 years of lurking)
I have checked in on almost everyday ( my significant other calls it my Daily Squee) and have contented myself to just enjoying the posts and following everyone's thoughts, joys and frustrations. I actually promised myself to delurk if any of the following happen: John and Elizabeth become canon and lately, if elizabeth comes back. Alas, although I'd love to be the one to break that awesome news.. Im not delurking today for the above. Im just here to share and let everyone know that its really wonderful how a lot of people still keep the Sparky idea alive and kicking ( I know its wicked but I do love it when we are still more than ever always on page 1 --hee hee!). I love how the conversations never gets tedious and even today, new people tune in and share their support for the pairing.
You all are great and thank you for being a super part of my days all these years!

Welcome squeebaby! Once you go Sparky, you never go back. No matter what happens on the show. That's probably why there are still so many of us here and on LJ. We rock!!


Vid rec: http://youtube.com/watch?v=l07Ul3N25tI

Beware the Sparky angst...

[queerofatlantis]

**feels luffed**
How about a mint dessert?

nice bit of cake that

[gateraid]

[QUOTE=Eri13;8083933Questions to be answered: [/QUOTE]

1) If you were Landry, what would you have thought of Elizabeth's reaction to Caldwell being posited for second in command?

I (Landry) would have thought it was quite odd. Here is a woman whom, when last on earth, had a self confessed aversion to the military (now though, I think she just tends towards force minimisation but thats another topic), who is effectively putting her own job on the line by backing someone who has, by her own admission, gone against her orders (as he had done in the past when on earth), reinforcing his disrespect for the chain of command. Why is this woman defending him? What is her reasoning? Does she think that she can now control Sheppard, but is not so sure that she will have the same control over Caldwell? Or is there another reason? Does she feel responsible towards him due to his saving her life more than once?
^what I imagine he would have been thinking


2) *inspired by above discussion* Do you think John felt like his promotion had been 'unearned', after discovering Elizabeth had something to do with it?

He doesnt appear to be. Remember it is never actually stated (to him) that Elizabeth had anything to do with it. She just grins and says something to the effect of "well obviously those whose opinion's mattered thought otherwise" when he is boasting because some of the military never thought that he would make it above Captain. I took it as one of those situations where they will decide at a later date whether or not he knew of her involvement. The trend of off-screen writing begins......

3) Who is smarter--Rodney or Hermiod?

Hermiod. Without a doubt. Presumably helped design the ship which unlike the

Spoiler:

Phoenix

actually survived.

4) Do you believe Elizabeth is really heartbroken over losing Simon?

No. I think in her heart she knew she was leaving him when she stepped through the gate. If she didn't, then that notion would be reinforced by their initial situation. TBH I think she has the ability to compartmentalise much like Shep does, and would tend to put that issue/those feelings on the shelf, so to speak, while she was away.

5) Why do you think Simon cheated?

Because TPTB think all men are weak No, he actually is weak. Was this woman even real? I can't speak to what all women find attractive, but I'm guessing that that hair is a big turn off I mean did he have a perm or something? It's just freaky. Elizabeth deserves someone cooler than that.

6) Do you believe John should have acted differently during his conversation with Aiden's cousin--tried to explain how dangerous the situation really was?

No. I think he was as reassuring as he was allowed to be, given the disclosure issues, and coming from a military family, she would have understood that. There was very little wiggle room for him, other than to feel guilty. Another interesting question is what have the family been told after the events of The Lost Boys?

7) Does Caldwell hold a grudge against Elizabeth for blocking his promotion?

Subconsciously, yes. It's why he has that (necessary and believable) chip on his shoulder initially. It's why he has that attitude towards Shep in Runner, and it's why he questions Weir in Conversion (is that why she backed Shep so vocally??). I wish he had kept this attitude because it was missing from the show since Kavanaugh

[johnliz4ever]

5) Why do you think Simon cheated?

Because TPTB think all men are weak No, he actually is weak. Was this woman even real? I can't speak to what all women find attractive, but I'm guessing that that hair is a big turn off I mean did he have a perm or something? It's just freaky. Elizabeth deserves someone cooler than that.

Totally agree and lol that hair was a big turn off. You can just imagine her seeing his hair and thinking 'Dear God John's hair is much better, ecspecially first thing on a morning'

[queerofatlantis]

Totally agree and lol that hair was a big turn off. You can just imagine her seeing his hair and thinking 'Dear God John's hair is much better, ecspecially first thing on a morning'

agreed- I think she liked simon when his hair was short and tidy. I rekon he made the other bird up aswell

[Eri13]

Totally agree and lol that hair was a big turn off. You can just imagine her seeing his hair and thinking 'Dear God John's hair is much better, ecspecially first thing on a morning'

agreed- I think she liked simon when his hair was short and tidy. I rekon he made the other bird up aswell

*LOL* That's so true! His hair was not my idea of good hair. When you've been around John that long, too, you get picky.

1) If you were Landry, what would you have thought of Elizabeth's reaction to Caldwell being posited for second in command?

I (Landry) would have thought it was quite odd. Here is a woman whom, when last on earth, had a self confessed aversion to the military (now though, I think she just tends towards force minimisation but thats another topic), who is effectively putting her own job on the line by backing someone who has, by her own admission, gone against her orders (as he had done in the past when on earth), reinforcing his disrespect for the chain of command. Why is this woman defending him? What is her reasoning? Does she think that she can now control Sheppard, but is not so sure that she will have the same control over Caldwell? Or is there another reason? Does she feel responsible towards him due to his saving her life more than once?
^what I imagine he would have been thinking

I like your thought process for Landry. I'm a bit familiar with him, but not really--I had a much better handle on Hammond because I watched the show more with him. I never really watched it with Landry.

I also like your thinking for Caldwell, though I think he takes out his bitterness more on John than on Elizabeth. I just went through Runner, Trinity, Condemned and Conversion, and my take on his character changed just a bit--he's really harsh on John but holds back on Elizabeth--sort of trying to undermine her rather than directly confront her. He does push on her, but maybe it's because he knows she fights back as his equal that he's not as aggressively condescending. Or perhaps because he feels John should live up to the expectation she seems to put on him.

Or maybe he's just...jealous.





Who's not charmed by Lizzie? He's even got on his nice dress blues for her.

[Scary Kitty]

Taking a break from hammering out my final Sparky smutathon fic to rescue the thread from the clutches of Page 2...

*LOL* That's so true! His hair was not my idea of good hair. When you've been around John that long, too, you get picky.

Exactly! Why settle for anything less than the best?

I also like your thinking for Caldwell, though I think he takes out his bitterness more on John than on Elizabeth. I just went through Runner, Trinity, Condemned and Conversion, and my take on his character changed just a bit--he's really harsh on John but holds back on Elizabeth--sort of trying to undermine her rather than directly confront her. He does push on her, but maybe it's because he knows she fights back as his equal that he's not as aggressively condescending. Or perhaps because he feels John should live up to the expectation she seems to put on him.

I think both. He knows that Elizabeth's not a pushover and he won't get anywhere by actively going after her. It's the whole "you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar" line of thinking. As for John, Caldwell obviously views him the same way as the rest of the "establishment" (like Landry, Sumner, pre-Wraith snack Everett) does; he's a troublemaker with no discipline who doesn't deserve to wear the uniform. At least, until even Caldwell grudgingly accepts that John is The Man. But that's not for a while, yet.

Or maybe he's just...jealous.

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...ersion2272.jpg
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/i...ersion2274.jpg

Who's not charmed by Lizzie? He's even got on his nice dress blues for her.

It's the Courting Sweater!

[gateraid]

Re Caldwell's attitude towards Weir and Sheppard, I think he basically sees Weir as an equal, whereas Sheppard is just a subordinate (well he is, there's no getting around that fact). In fact Caldwell has really been the only one to say to Shep throughout the whole series to say to Shep flat out "here's an order [Runner], i expect you to follow it" and then been around to see the consequences of that. It is a little odd though. The issue of chain of command comes into it - I mean, Caldwell is senior to Shep, so he has to follow his order, and in this case, it is basically the same as Weir's orders, but it kind of (and only slightly) brings the whole civilian vs military aspect into play as well. Who is Shep's real boss? Weir or Caldwell? Shep's loyalties automatically become fractured as a result, no matter which CO he obeys. That's why I wish Caldwell had been a little more abrasive for longer. It changes the leadership dynamic (even though I resent the fact that from Seige III they have an immediate link to Earth and an immediate deus ex machina to every situation).

As an aside to that, there's one thing I've always wondered about Weir. It comes from The West Wing. Josh is trying to find out what Donna's situation is (she is in hospital, being operated on, and he is still the Deputy Chief of Staff at that stage) and he yells at the nurse (a military officer who won't tell him anything because he isn't military) that "I work for the President of the United States (like Weir), I have the diplomatic rank of a 3 star general, now tell me where she is". We now Weir has a very high security clearance, higher than most politicians and most in the military, but what is her diplomatic rank? Is she equivalent to a Colonel, or a 1-3 star general? Irrelevant i guess, as she is still not military.

And another thing, while I'm still on a rant I feel I may be being perceived as somewhat harsh on both Shep and Weir in this thread. I would like to state, for the record, that I fully support both of them. I think I just have a different take on them than most, and with my tendancy towards negativity when posting, that often bleeds through into posts that seem critical of both characters. This is not my intention, as they are/were a major reason for my watching Atlantis. I love the Sparky. Woof woof

[gateraid]

...snip...
I like your thought process for Landry. I'm a bit familiar with him, but not really--I had a much better handle on Hammond because I watched the show more with him. I never really watched it with Landry.

Landry in SGA I never liked (not a huge fan in SG1 either, but liked him better there). They tried to make the SGC (with Landry as the head) Weir's enemy early on, then they thought that they were being a bit too harsh on the character and backed off somewhat. That lead to his early s3 suck-up fest in No Man's Land. But I'll leave that til later. I have issues with that ep. I did like his "success in not final, failure is not fatal, it's the courage to continue" line in that ep. But later my precious.

I also like your thinking for Caldwell, though I think he takes out his bitterness more on John than on Elizabeth. I just went through Runner, Trinity, Condemned and Conversion, and my take on his character changed just a bit--he's really harsh on John but holds back on Elizabeth--sort of trying to undermine her rather than directly confront her. He does push on her, but maybe it's because he knows she fights back as his equal that he's not as aggressively condescending. Or perhaps because he feels John should live up to the expectation she seems to put on him.

Or maybe he's just...jealous.

Well her ship is bigger than his

[gateraid]

...snip...




Who's not charmed by Lizzie? He's even got on his nice dress blues for her.

Sorry for the triple posting but I keep thinking about this scene. It's the first time we see Liz with a real equal, in a supposedly non-confrontational setting. And while they do break down some barriers, they are nowhere near as relaxed with each other as say *gulp* Cam & Sam *gulp*

[Scary Kitty]

Re Caldwell's attitude towards Weir and Sheppard, I think he basically sees Weir as an equal, whereas Sheppard is just a subordinate (well he is, there's no getting around that fact). In fact Caldwell has really been the only one to say to Shep throughout the whole series to say to Shep flat out "here's an order [Runner], i expect you to follow it" and then been around to see the consequences of that. It is a little odd though. The issue of chain of command comes into it - I mean, Caldwell is senior to Shep, so he has to follow his order, and in this case, it is basically the same as Weir's orders, but it kind of (and only slightly) brings the whole civilian vs military aspect into play as well. Who is Shep's real boss? Weir or Caldwell? Shep's loyalties automatically become fractured as a result, no matter which CO he obeys. That's why I wish Caldwell had been a little more abrasive for longer. It changes the leadership dynamic (even though I resent the fact that from Seige III they have an immediate link to Earth and an immediate deus ex machina to every situation).

On paper, I'd say that Weir, as the expedition's overall commander, is Sheppard's boss, but in practice, many times they tend to act more like co-leaders than leader and subordinate.

There's a bit in "Misbegotten" where Woolsey is talking to Caldwell about his investigation, and Caldwell sums up his position in the hierarchy:

CALDWELL: As commander of the Daedalus, I have standing orders to help out around here whenever possible, but... I"m not a member of this expedition. I don't answer to the IOA, and unless otherwise directed by my superiors, I don't have to answer your questions.

Caldwell can give Sheppard orders as he is a superior officer, but if he does so on Atlantis, he's stepping on Weir's toes, and I think he realizes that, even though he probably doesn't like it and it sometimes may make his own job more difficult. In a way, I think once he sees more of how the IOA is always sticking their noses into everything and getting in the way, he's rather glad he's on the Daedalus and doesn't have to play the political game. But more on that when we get there...

As an aside to that, there's one thing I've always wondered about Weir. It comes from The West Wing. Josh is trying to find out what Donna's situation is (she is in hospital, being operated on, and he is still the Deputy Chief of Staff at that stage) and he yells at the nurse (a military officer who won't tell him anything because he isn't military) that "I work for the President of the United States (like Weir), I have the diplomatic rank of a 3 star general, now tell me where she is". We now Weir has a very high security clearance, higher than most politicians and most in the military, but what is her diplomatic rank? Is she equivalent to a Colonel, or a 1-3 star general? Irrelevant i guess, as she is still not military.

Now that is an interesting question. I would assume that she's the equivalent of an ambassador or better still, a colonial governor.

And another thing, while I'm still on a rant I feel I may be being perceived as somewhat harsh on both Shep and Weir in this thread. I would like to state, for the record, that I fully support both of them. I think I just have a different take on them than most, and with my tendancy towards negativity when posting, that often bleeds through into posts that seem critical of both characters. This is not my intention, as they are/were a major reason for my watching Atlantis. I love the Sparky. Woof woof

Oh no, don't apologize! You're taking a more realistic viewpoint of them, and I think that should be explored more. I've done this myself on some topics, and I know others have as well. So please keep it up!

Well her ship is bigger than his

[Ice Wolf]

I think Weir's diplomatic rank has to be higher than colonel as she has been able to issue orders to Caldwell of her own volition. I think as long as her orders don't counterman order's issued by their direct chain of command the ship commanders have to follow them.

She does give her nearest sub-ordinates a significant amount of leeway in what they can do, but she will put her foot down or give them a kick up the butt if the situation warrants it. Weir prefers to act off consensus (not surprising given her diplomat/negotiator background) but will not hesitate to make decisions on her own when needed.

I think that Weir's influence/trust has made Sheppard a better soldier/commander as it has enabled he to see that he can't go off half-cocked he has to have a workable plan before doing something. I think it's also enabled him to see where his previous commander might have been coming from. She given him he opportunity to learn from his mistakes without busting him down too much as would have happened with a military commander, which in turn has enabled him to grow. I think that we have begun to see that the military doesn't have the same disdain for him any more and Caldwell seemed to have gained a respect for him and believed that he was the right man for the job.

Had that not happened he would have been replaced when Weir was lost clearly the military has changed their mind about him since the start of s2.

I liked how both Sheppard and Weir added to each other characters and made each other better at their jobs, I also loved how they supported and comforted each other.

[Scary Kitty]

I think Weir's diplomatic rank has to be higher than colonel as she has been able to issue orders to Caldwell of her own volition. I think as long as her orders don't counterman order's issued by their direct chain of command the ship commanders have to follow them.

Yeah, that's definitely covered by Caldwell's "I have standing orders to help out around here whenever possible" bit.

Found a bit more stuff on the modern system of diplomatic rankings and its history, and the U.S. Foreign Service (which Elizabeth, as a career diplomat, is no doubt a part of) that some of you may find of interest.

She does give her nearest sub-ordinates a significant amount of leeway in what they can do, but she will put her foot down or give them a kick up the butt if the situation warrants it. Weir prefers to act off consensus (not surprising given her diplomat/negotiator background) but will not hesitate to make decisions on her own when needed.

I think that Weir's influence/trust has made Sheppard a better soldier/commander as it has enabled he to see that he can't go off half-cocked he has to have a workable plan before doing something. I think it's also enabled him to see where his previous commander might have been coming from. She given him he opportunity to learn from his mistakes without busting him down too much as would have happened with a military commander, which in turn has enabled him to grow. I think that we have begun to see that the military doesn't have the same disdain for him any more and Caldwell seemed to have gained a respect for him and believed that he was the right man for the job.

Had that not happened he would have been replaced when Weir was lost clearly the military has changed their mind about him since the start of s2.

Weir's leadership style really is suited to Atlantis. The expedition has a much greater mix of civilian and military personnel from different countries than even Stargate Command, so they need to have someone who knows how to work with people, someone who can be hands-on, but not to the extent of being a micro-manager.

And it's the right environment that Sheppard needed to develop his own style of command, to the point where his more "conventional" superiors could finally begin to understand that there is a place for the unique mindset that he brings to the table.

I liked how both Sheppard and Weir added to each other characters and made each other better at their jobs, I also loved how they supported and comforted each other.

And that's why Sparky rocks. When they're together, they're unstoppable.

[muffinnuffin]

*LOL* That's so true! His hair was not my idea of good hair. When you've been around John that long, too, you get picky.

Nothing beats Shep!hair. Those who have me on LJ, I use an icon of Sheps hair as an icon of approval

Seriously, with regards to the Simon situation, I think ultimatly he felt betreyed by Elizabeth as well, even if she didnt intend it to be so. The way she handled telling him where she was going in the first place felt very impersonal. If she did care about him then she would've told him in person. And when he tried to call her afterwards and couldn't get hold of her, maybe he felt that she was trying to distance herself from him.

I dont know. Just my Two Cents. I need sleep...