Wraith Defenders Club

[LiquidSky]

I really can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not

You could take a being sarcastic if you want it is up to you. I just want to say that when ever there is talk about the Wraith many as you do deem the Wraith as being evil because they eat people. That has been the arugment they eat people Would the Wraith be less evil if they can consume food like humans do but, kill other humans for power, money and, other things humans kill for? Are Anubis, Baal and Apophis less evil than the Wraith because they don't consume humans? but, kill for power and inslave humans to do their bidding? Are all humans in the PG innocence? I think the bottom line here that many concider the Wraith evil because they eat people. Are humans that sacred?

LS

[naamiaiset]

Still what prevents the wraith from feeding on animals? They choose to eat sentient beings who can talk and use machine tools. I mean other then that what is the dffernce in terms of being food? I mean why can't the wraith eat cows, chickens, deer, monkeys, gorillas, or anything but they choose humans and targets them specfically. I mean there is no bilogical reason why they can't eat something else

actually, there is. animal life force isn't compatible with the wraith's system. plus, I haven't seen many animals in pegasus. til they might have an alternative, it's their only option.

[Wraith Cake]

...
The Wraith are geniuses they beat the Ancinets which shows how impressive they are and have shown numerous times to be highly adaptive and intelligent. It only took them moments to figure a way to counter the asgard beams from entering their ships

So really they haven't stalled they just choose not to focus on alernate food because I think they enjoy the hunt or why would they have runners?

Okay, this is a really long entry so I'm going to respond to the whole thing without quoting the whole thing. First, one of the most salient/fascinating issues concerning the wraith is the fact that they are a hyperbole of the human race. They are an effective narrative device in the form of an exaggerated mirror of human beings. Second, If they were simply the "black hats" and the humans in SGA were simply the "white hats" this story would be quite boring indeed. The fact that a foe like the wraith mirror humanity in such a way that makes people uncomfortable is exactly what makes them captivating and cathartic.

Are the wraith evil in their behaviour--of course they are, that's what makes them the bad guys in the story. Are they inherently evil? Now that's the question. Are the humans, including the ancients just as evil in their behaviour as the wraith, you bet. Think about all the experiments the ancients have performed on sentient beings: Hide and Seek, Progeny, The Game Are the humans and the ancients role playing the good guys in this story, oh you bet. The point isn't whether they are behaving badly, the point rather is how well do they mirror us behaving badly--oh quite well. Quite quite well.

In other words, aside from the good guys/bad guys focus in the story they are about as evil and good as we are--they were just more successful at it--for a long time.


The last thing I have to say is at the end of the day, I don't have a moral dilemma with their need to feed. However, I do find them quite appealing. Ronon Dex doesn't do anything for me, and Sheppard (great character) reminds me of this guy who chased after me throughout my first and second year university. Rodney, as hilarious as he is, he irritates the lining of my colon. However, I would take Brendan Penny's Todd in BAMSR and James L's wraith "Steve" anytime.

wwii

[StarOcean]

Wraith are evil

I don't think Wraith, as a race, are evil.

They are aliens. They're not even human aliens (Teyla, Ronon, Genii, Jaffa, etc). We shouldn't judge them or think of them by our standards. We might not ever be able to truly comprehend them. For all we know, they could be a more advance lifeform than us. Like how humans are a more advance sentient and sapient lifeform than the animals and plants we eat. All we should do is defend ourselves.

And if the show does goes the route of presenting the Wraith as a race we can understand, I still think the Wraith, as a whole, are not evil. They have some members who are (Reunion is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, with the making of worshippers by torture), but I don't think they're all evil.

Hm... here's a thought: Maybe humans and Wraith still are only a little bit above animals. The whole prey and predator in the animal kingdom is playing out on the level of sapient races. Just think, there's an even more advance race that thinks both our races are nothing more than animals who learned how to make complex toys.

Well I was thinking of the big ass cloning lab of theirs that was able to make an army that was able to destroy the Ancients. So why couldn't they just make some quick and easy dinners that way instead of culling innocent people?

Regarding why they didn't clone their meals; they didn't have the means to power it until after BAMSR. As for in the past, I think after the Ancients discovered the Wraith, they decided to pass judgment and wipe them out in a preemptive strike. Prompting the Wraith to clone their armies.

The question I have to all of that is, "How did the Wraith become so technologically advance?" Wraith tech is a lot like Ancient tech. Something more happened back then that we don't know about yet. And I'm more inclined to believe that the Ancients are at fault somehow, given what we've seen of them.

Wraithworshipper wrote: What a wonderful idea! A symbiotic Wraith/Human relationship! I had thought along the idea of a Wraith/human relationship like the toc'ra/human relationship. If there are significantly different goa'uld (yes. I know spelling is wrong. I'm a WRAITH worshipper!), then why not significantly differing Wraith, as well?

I keep forgetting to mention the Tok'ra. Thanks. That's an excellent example of how one shouldn't judge a race based on their biology. Just think of how terrible it would be if SG1 created a virulent weapon of genocide only to discover later that there are Go'auld who are innocent.

And I think that's a flaw on the writers. Because the show presents that ALL Wraith as evil because of their need to feed on humans. Nothing else. Biology dictates that judgment, and not the Wraith's actions. If the show presented the Wraith as evil due to their actions that we've seen so far, I would be ok with that. But it doesn't. It all boils down to biology. And that's why I don't think we'll ever see the characters consider that there might be Wraiths that are different, or are willing to change their lifestyle and opinion on humans.

Even Carson says so in that he thinks it's unnatural. Which boggles my mind. How is it any unnatural than human evolution? Is it unnatural if we can't pigeon-hole a lifeform in any of our scientific categories? Are sentient races, or any sort of life, only natural if they're fully mammal, fully insect, fully reptile, etc., and not transversing multiple "categories?" Or worse, what if our evolution was dictated by the Ancients? Wouldn't that make human evolution completely unnatural?

In my opinion, a lot of the writers beliefs shows through. The kind that plagues the real world and are inherent and thus unaware of. And I find it disturbing.

They attacked first not me, so isn't it my right to defend myself? I mean if a wraith attacked me and I had the choice to kill or be killed, well what would you do?

Of course humans have the right to defend themselves to survive. Just like the Wraith do. That's perfectly understandable. The problem on the show is that it's being presented as a good vs. evil thing. Which it shouldn't because the Wraith are aliens and shouldn't be subjected by our standards.

If the Pegasus humans want to commit genocide for survival? Ok. Understandable. I think it's unfortunate, but acceptable.

If the Earthers want to commit genocide as a preemptive measure to protect Earth? Or even to help out their fellow humans? Not ok. Because they should know better. The Tok'ra are a prime example. Also, they better own up to that decision and realize that they're judging an entire race based on biology, and not attempting to offer that race an alternative so that they would still have a future. But I doubt that acknowledgment would happen. Like another poster wrote, the only alternative the Earthers presented involved stripping away the Wraith's racial identity, turning them human. Not to mention there was no consent involved. I would be pretty pissed if it was decided that I would be better off as a vegan, and had my dietary needs forcibly modified to being unable to process meat without my consent. Or that I'm better off being more simple minded so as not to cause trouble. (Scientifically condoned lobotomies on "troublesome" women in history comes to mind.)

Also isn't it right to defend the lives of my fellow humans from a race that wants to eat them?

If help is requested, yes. But if you don't know what's going on, then the best thing one can do is to keep out of it. Most certainly don't go around playing galaxy defending under heroic illusions.

Finally if cows started talking to me I wouldn't eat them or any other animal that could talk my lanugae and use simple machines

You mean any lifeform capable of complex, intelligient thoughts and sapiency, right?

Hm... I wonder, what would happen if all our world's animals suddenly became intelligent like us? I get the feeling we would rationalize their existence into as still something less than humans. (How Sector 7 treated the Transformers in the Transformers movie comes to mind here. Or in historical context, how English scientists rationalize their data to explain how they're better than other races.)

And if Todd truly is an exception to the rule, he still is an intelligent being and the Lanteans have to allow him to try to change and preserve his race. Instead of killing him in an effort to wipe out the race or as a preemptive strike simply because he's smart. I'm worried that their attitude towards Todd runs along the lines of presumptive, anticipatory mentality. In example, "Somewhere in the future, that country *might* try to conquer mine. So let's conquer them first. Just in case."

[LiquidSky]

Still what prevents the wraith from feeding on animals? They choose to eat sentient beings who can talk and use machine tools. I mean other then that what is the dffernce in terms of being food? I mean why can't the wraith eat cows, chickens, deer, monkeys, gorillas, or anything but they choose humans and targets them specfically. I mean there is no bilogical reason why they can't eat something else

They probably tried that but found they couldn't consume the life force of other animals. It is could be the way they evolved from the Iratus bug. Even Sheppard tried to feed Steve other animals but, there is only one food source the Wraith can substain themselfs. Dr. Beckett could not understand the feeding process and, why they consume humans.

LS

[LiquidSky]

Even Carson says so in that he thinks it's unnatural. Which boggles my mind. How is it any unnatural than human evolution? Is it unnatural if we can't pigeon-hole a lifeform in any of our scientific categories? Are sentient races, or any sort of life, only natural if they're fully mammal, fully insect, fully reptile, etc., and not transversing multiple "categories?" Or worse, what if our evolution was dictated by the Ancients? Wouldn't that make human evolution completely unnatural?

That was in Allies: and that whole thought annoyed me. Who is he to jugde what is or, isn't natural . That whole I'm going to rewrite your DNA so you will be able to fit in. Its that I'm God attitude.

LS

Hm... I wonder, what would happen if all our world's animals suddenly became intelligent like us? I get the feeling we would rationalize their existence into as still something less than humans. (How Sector 7 treated the Transformers in the Transformers movie comes to mind here. Or in historical context, how English scientists rationalize their data to explain how they're better than other races.)

I think there would be vast extermination of these intelligent creatures. Humans have a fear of something that would exceed their intelligence or if it is equal. There is still this attitude that some people still think other people are not their equals. If prechance that other animals suddenly became intelligent that would away their place in the hierachary in this world.

LS

[LiquidSky]

Hi StarOcean: Welcome back haven't seen here for awhile. Sorry I didn't say hi when I was doing mulity post when you posted

LS

[StarOcean]

Yikes! Our messages crossed because I took such a long time to type things. I'd like to reply to some of what SO said:

I share some of your concerns, but I don't think we should write off Season 5 just yet.

I don't want to either, but I'm worried that all it'll do is piss me off.

I agree and have expressed similar thoughts in the past on an alternate thread that das opened "Lanteans: Outwraithing the Wraith." You might want to stop by there.

I've been there. I think I was discussing with you about instincts vs. choice before Real Life pulled me away. And right now, I don't want to go there. All it does is make me not like the show. Maybe later. Sorry about that.

And really, my issues with the characters have become more of issues with the writers. The problems in SGA have become that bad in my eyes.

I really should step away from these type of discussions.

Where's the squee?

Hey, GoSpikey! That cat walk sig of Todd was great! And hey, I noticed they all show Todd with his right foot first.

Also, does it bother anyone that Todd's belt buckle is crooked? I feel like that's an oversight. It should be perfectly aligned!

Or maybe it's a indication, like with his hair that's occasionally find its way into his collar, that while Todd seems all held together now, he's still affected by his Genii imprisonment.

Off tangent: Maybe all the good, Elder Wraiths are dead because all the younger Wraiths killed them off? Because they decided that humans are inferior and not worth talking to. And our Todd is the last.

A great thought! I think it might be the other way around. I think Todd is the one with the diplomatic mind. Maybe Teyla as well. It would be nice if the new race in Season 5 proved to be a common enemy that would require the Lanteans and Wraith, led by Todd, to work together.

Thanks! And I totally agree that Todd is diplomatic. The problem is that I don't think he can initiate first contact in the opening diplomatic relations. He'll need Teyla and Ronon for that. And I totally think Teyla is the diplomat of the Lantean group. Pity that they don't make more use of her. Though it's just as well, since the Earthers tend to screw things up, and thereby making her look bad.

And I'm hoping that S5 will bring Todd and Sheppard Co. closer to coexistance.

Lastly, did a flamewar happen somewhere? I'm confused at the appearances of some mean comments.

[StarOcean]

Hi StarOcean: Welcome back haven't seen here for awhile. Sorry I didn't say hi when I was doing mulity post when you posted

LS

Hey, no problem. And thanks for the welcome!

I think there would be vast extermination of these intelligent creatures. Humans have a fear of something that would exceed their intelligence or if it is equal. There is still this attitude that some people still think other people are not their equals.

Sadly, I think you're right.

They probably tried that but found they couldn't consume the life force of other animals. It is could be the way they evolved from the Iratus bug. Even Sheppard tried to feed Steve other animals but, there is only one food source the Wraith can substain themselfs. Dr. Beckett could not understand the feeding process and, why they consume humans.

Hm, you just inspired a question. The Earthers couldn't understand the feeding process. I wonder... did the Ancients? And more importantly, did *they* try to find an alternative for the Wraith? Or did they try to do what Carson did and "cure" the Wraith by turning them human?

Why do I get the feeling the answer is no?

[StarOcean]

Just had a stray thought that I don't think I've mentioned before: What if there's a faction of Wraith out there that can sustain themselves on food?

[naamiaiset]

Just had a stray thought that I don't think I've mentioned before: What if there's a faction of Wraith out there that can sustain themselves on food?

shawn in the condemned says "there are those among us who yet retain an appreciation for finer things" referring to eating normal food but he also says it doesn't sustain him. it's unlikely I think...

[Shanthaia]

Guys you are insane - 7 pages in one night

I absolutly love you for it

So many great thoughts!

Welcome Sasusc, Reed and JenKM1216

[Icarium]

I made another Todd sig

Spoiler:

Love it

naamiaiset- thanks for the link to the seen caps.
jenKM- welcome, its always nice to know there are more wraith obsessed fan out there.
can someone tell me how to HIDE/Spolier an image? I ahve an image of todd that I have altered and would like your thoughts.
masterling

I like this picture, it really looks as if painted

Guys you are insane - 7 pages in one night

I absolutly love you for it

So many great thoughts!

I agree... Took me lots of time to read everything
Welcome @Sasusc, @Reed and any others that I forgot to mention

Icarium

[Risem]

Wowy, I've had to read through so much! You like talking guys! *squishes you all*

[BlueJay]

Good Grief!!

That was a load of pages to wade through. Many, many thoughts.
And now i have no time to do lots of replies but i will say this.

Still what prevents the wraith from feeding on animals? They choose to eat sentient beings who can talk and use machine tools. I mean other then that what is the dffernce in terms of being food? I mean why can't the wraith eat cows, chickens, deer, monkeys, gorillas, or anything but they choose humans and targets them specfically. I mean there is no bilogical reason why they can't eat something else

Don't you think if the wraith could eat other animals they would do so now as Michael has poisoned human worlds?

Welcome all newcomers

Glad you came back Reed, we did see you a few pages back before you deleted,