Wraith Defenders Club

[rascal]

hi, its rascal, just got back from newcastle, ive ,missed loads, so catching up, mind if i rejoin you?x

[MCH]

hi, its rascal, just got back from newcastle, ive ,missed loads, so catching up, mind if i rejoin you?x

Hi Rascel, long time no see. Glad your back. We over on chill out hive having a Friday chilling out. WWA Chilling out. Come join us.

[vanillavamp]

RL took me away from this happy place, but I'm scooting back to recommend a story, The Pegasus Tango (not by me) on ff.net. Steve is the star, and it's a lovingly detailed work.

[MCH]

RL took me away from this happy place, but I'm scooting back to recommend a story, The Pegasus Tango (not by me) on ff.net. Steve is the star, and it's a lovingly detailed work.

Thanks for the link. It really good.

[katzarai]

But that's the thing, if he was "in love" with Teyla or whatever why did he try to kill her earlier? And then AFTER he tries to kill her he suddenly kind of wants her approval? And then after that he's actually asking her to live with him, which is a little bit of a stretch even from his last appearance.

The first time he tries to kill Teyla, its purely an instinctive reaction - he's REALLY hungry by now. Never mind that he has only been given human food to eat, the drain on his system by not one but two changes has to be enormous and she's all he has to eat. :shrug: He does come as close to apologising as he can about this in Allies.

I'm not so sure that love is quite the word for what Michael feels for Teyla anyway allthough there is most definitely a connection. In Vengeance, he is angry - unbelievably so but is Michael actually going to kill Teyla? It looks like it but it seems far more likely to me he was punishing her by letting out the bug and was going to catch it just before it attached itself. However, when he heard how close the gunfire was, Michael realised he needed to get the heck out asap and that leaving the bug loose would give him a few extra seconds grace.

Michael goes out of his way to be caring to Teyla and also exhibits what seems to be jealousy by transforming Kanaan, demonstrating that he feels a connection to her. As for the Prodigal performance, I seriously debate that it was Michael Prime in that episode. As Connor himself has said if Michael was supposedly that intelligent, then going to Atlantis in person for such a mission was incredibly stupid. He has already proven his cloning abilities and (most damning of all in my eyes,) what in the names of all the gods was he wearing in that episode? Where is our snappy wraith boy with the fashion sense? Plus he is entirely unwilling, or is that unable? to compromise on the mission except when he offers to take Teyla as well.

Now I may have missed something as I have yet to see episodes past Vengeance - I can't afford to buy Atlantis yet and Foxtel hasn't shown those episodes since my housemate got it connected. What I have gathered from webresearch is that very few people are happy with this ending - including Connor and that it seems not quite in character. If this was a mission tasked clone, then all the pieces just fall into place, making a lot of sense.

The other factor to take into account is that all the hybrids we see are male. Wether or no he feels something for Teyla, this leaves Michael with something of a quandary - once all the humans/wraith are dead or converted, how do they breed? Looking at the situation, I get the feeling Michael has solved the female question and while he thinks he can resolve it, makes the offer to Teyla. If you think on, having a female hybrid specimen might well give his research a leg up.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

The first time he tries to kill Teyla, its purely an instinctive reaction - he's REALLY hungry by now. Never mind that he has only been given human food to eat, the drain on his system by not one but two changes has to be enormous and she's all he has to eat. :shrug: He does come as close to apologising as he can about this in Allies.

I'm not so sure that love is quite the word for what Michael feels for Teyla anyway allthough there is most definitely a connection. In Vengeance, he is angry - unbelievably so but is Michael actually going to kill Teyla? It looks like it but it seems far more likely to me he was punishing her by letting out the bug and was going to catch it just before it attached itself. However, when he heard how close the gunfire was, Michael realised he needed to get the heck out asap and that leaving the bug loose would give him a few extra seconds grace.

Michael goes out of his way to be caring to Teyla and also exhibits what seems to be jealousy by transforming Kanaan, demonstrating that he feels a connection to her. As for the Prodigal performance, I seriously debate that it was Michael Prime in that episode. As Connor himself has said if Michael was supposedly that intelligent, then going to Atlantis in person for such a mission was incredibly stupid. He has already proven his cloning abilities and (most damning of all in my eyes,) what in the names of all the gods was he wearing in that episode? Where is our snappy wraith boy with the fashion sense? Plus he is entirely unwilling, or is that unable? to compromise on the mission except when he offers to take Teyla as well.

Now I may have missed something as I have yet to see episodes past Vengeance - I can't afford to buy Atlantis yet and Foxtel hasn't shown those episodes since my housemate got it connected. What I have gathered from webresearch is that very few people are happy with this ending - including Connor and that it seems not quite in character. If this was a mission tasked clone, then all the pieces just fall into place, making a lot of sense.

The other factor to take into account is that all the hybrids we see are male. Wether or no he feels something for Teyla, this leaves Michael with something of a quandary - once all the humans/wraith are dead or converted, how do they breed? Looking at the situation, I get the feeling Michael has solved the female question and while he thinks he can resolve it, makes the offer to Teyla. If you think on, having a female hybrid specimen might well give his research a leg up.

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o...cons/cat-9.jpg

I was actually referring to the time in "Vengeance" when he tried to kill her without hesitation.

To say he was angry but going to come in and catch the bug is really a stretch to be honest. There was no evidence of this. Especially since he wasn't the one her saved her. At the time I thought that was unusually cold compared to the last time we saw him, but his explanation still worked. Now sure it may be slightly odd compared to his feelings or Teyla before but it still happened. It's still canon.

When we see him in "Kindred", he seems to want her approval or understanding for his work. That may make sense if this was the first time we saw him since "Misbegotten" but is seemingly like a disconnect after "Vengeance."

As far as "Prodigal" goes, as much as I'd like a way for Michael arc to continue after that episode it really doesn't seem probable to me. While it stands to reason that he "could" clone himself. Why would he want to? His whole deal is that he was the only one. He's the only one who went through what he did. Are the others going to share his vengeance on Atlantis and the Wraith when it was Michael that created them? Are they all supposed to share Teyla? What purpose would the clone have to go there? Creating many clones of the same character is frankly kinda silly in my opinion. It worked better than I expected with Ba'al, but he was in a different situation than Michael. And to be honest, I feel it got pretty ridiculous with him anyway.

The way that he was desperate to get her to come with him in The Prodigal struck me as a little bit of a stretch from directly "Kindred" and a huge stretch after "Vengeance" and "Allies". In the latter of those episodes he said he never expected to see her again. In the former he apparently even tried to make certain of that fact, himself.

[katzarai]

:shrug:
Looking at the situation, I get the feeling Michael has solved the female question and while he thinks he can resolve it, makes the offer to Teyla. If you think on, having a female hybrid specimen might well give his research a leg up.

Whups, that should have been hasn't - after all, if Michael has solved the female hybrid question, what need has he for Teyla?

Is there no shrug emoticon or am I just notating it wrong? For that matter where is the dangnabit edit button? I think I must be going blind here or something.

Yes, this is one of my avatars below....

[WraithQueenH]

As far as "Prodigal" goes, as much as I'd like a way for Michael arc to continue after that episode it really doesn't seem probable to me. While it stands to reason that he "could" clone himself. Why would he want to? His whole deal is that he was the only one. He's the only one who went through what he did. Are the others going to share his vengeance on Atlantis and the Wraith when it was Michael that created them? Are they all supposed to share Teyla? What purpose would the clone have to go there? Creating many clones of the same character is frankly kinda silly in my opinion. It worked better than I expected with Ba'al, but he was in a different situation than Michael. And to be honest, I feel it got pretty ridiculous with him anyway.

The way that he was desperate to get her to come with him in The Prodigal struck me as a little bit of a stretch from directly "Kindred" and a huge stretch after "Vengeance" and "Allies". In the latter of those episodes he said he never expected to see her again. In the former he apparently even tried to make certain of that fact, himself.

I agree with you that I don't think Michael would clone himself. Even if Michael could take his memories, feelings, skills, etc (as he did with the Beckett clone) I don't see a benefit to him making a clone. In fact, in his twisted mind of wanting universe domination and Teyla obsession I think that's the last think he would want... after all, he doesn't seem like the type to share power and once he wins against humans and wraith alike, a clone would be a problem. Wraith by definition don't share well: we see that they don't even share food with other hives, etc. Sharing doesn't seem to be something that their society encourages so I cannot see Michael cloning himself.

[katzarai]

Asgard cloning technology supplies the obvious answer. A properly equipped cloning factory could churn out enough mindless forced-grown clones to feed the entire wraith population and if they can only feed on conscious sentient humans then it is rather trivial with supplying a human mind to these clones, as well. If done correctly, all of the clones will even remember volunteering to be food.

If clones were the answer, the wraith would have used their own facilities to this end. Obviously clones just don't taste good, although I suspect if left without alternatives they would put up with that - like eating military rations. The provision of mind to the clones is morally and ethically wrong however. If you provide sentience, you must also allow choice - not simply have an imprint that 'volunteered'. Personally the level of ability provided by the Asgard clone in SG1 leaves me disturbed as to its possible awareness and development. It walked by itself - a mindless clone should have difficulty simply sustaining life, never mind going for stroll. The Asgard clones aren't truly mindless however, they are merely blank. They await the imprinting process to overlay on a perfectly functional brain the personality and memories of an Asgard whose current body is failing. Given time and education, I see no reason why a clone could not develop as a new individual - which leaves the Asgard in a moral hole.

To me, the clone question can only be solved by removing all possibility of intelligence - by manipulating the genome to eliminate most of the brain capacity. Cloning, essentially, the true moron - a being so brainless it has barely the capacity to breathe. The wraith do not eat sentient beings, they eat human beings - the fact that we are more or less sentient has nothing to do with it. The intellect seems to be simply a matter of flavour - remember all those statements by wraith about fear and how tasty it is? Not to mention the odd remark about defiance and other emotions flavouring the prey - including hunger and pain making us less tasty. (I'd taste absolutely disgusting by those standards; I also wonder about other 'flavours' like depression, insanity, hatred, love and the rest of the gamut. For that matter would disease significantly change the way we taste?) I have moved slightly off-topic however, it is my belief that the wraith 'choice' of humans as sole prey has nothing to do with our brains but rather a 'resonance' with our energy.

The iratus bug's feeding habits are not widely discussed in SGA, which is limiting to any 'real' theoretical work regarding wraith evolution and feeding. The only mention is of human prey, something that would long ago have become almost impossible to find on each infested planet. Human beings are, of course, largely omnivorous and if the wraith had retained the ability to be sustained by the same methods post-puberty, we'd not have the instinctive horror that makes the wraith so good as bad guys. Somehow the iratus need/ability to feed directly on the 'life-force' has evolved to be the wraith's primary mode of sustenance. However, because of the inclusion of what must be large amounts of human DNA in the mix, other species don't quench their thirst. My theory revolves around the fact that all living beings have a different frequency to the energy in their systems - even different individuals would have some minor frequency shifts, especially those with modified DNA - 'sports' or mutants. This resonance would make us the only thing edible by the wraith, unless some other life form were to be discovered to have the same frequency.
For those that find this an odd idea, there is an increasingly popular trend to look at the equations that govern the universe and translate them into music. Each of us is then a brief passage in the music of the species - in turn a minor passage introduced quite late into the Rondo that is Earth within the greater music of the spheres.

Rereading this, I'm not sure how easy it is to comprehend but I'm not really in a good position to re-edit until it does flow nicely. I just got a new batch of drugs for pain management 3 days ago and it is really messing with my sleep cycles (not that I didn't have insomnia to start with). First I was up for 2.5 days and since then I've mostly slept (with my usual screaming nightmares) but in odd shifts, involving long periods of staring at the ceiling thinking and disturbing my housemate into the bargain. Although why me thinking should be so disturbing for him I'm not sure.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d.../icons/cat.jpg

[Isolde]

As far as "Prodigal" goes, as much as I'd like a way for Michael arc to continue after that episode it really doesn't seem probable to me. While it stands to reason that he "could" clone himself. Why would he want to?

To retain power would be the obvious answer, and stay very much alive. Michael was mad, not stupid... and isn't it feasible he could actually program a clone with the necessary fail safes to ensure it wouldn't want to share that power? If you have the technology to build a clone that sophisticated in the first place, I'm willing to lay odds you can pretty much deliver what the hell you want to a nice, ripe well-developed brain that's still in the pod.

For those that find this an odd idea, there is an increasingly popular trend to look at the equations that govern the universe and translate them into music. Each of us is then a brief passage in the music of the species - in turn a minor passage introduced quite late into the Rondo that is Earth within the greater music of the spheres.

An interesting theory, and one the WDC can add to the on-going debate about Wraith and their evolution. If you check this thread you will find any number of ideas relating to that as well as, I fear, reproduction.

There is a point I would like to examine, if you don't mind, however..?

While I can agree with a great deal of your hypothesis as it tallies fairly neatly with my own, you have not left any room for the role played by the Lanteans in their creation, and involved in that they most certainly were. That is a fact of canon.

If we are to move your theory one stage further, it would seem logical that the Ancients tweaked the Wraith ability to sense life, and turned on their 'nom-nom-nom-human' preference because they needed it to help them understand the mechanics behind Ascendancy. This also explains quite neatly why they have evolved to specialist status as being an apex predator with no other food source is not a good evolutionary strategy. That way doth lie extinction.

There is a lot of conjecture about Wraith and their similarity to humans, too, and I favour lots of similarity to humans in their genome purely because the science makes better sense. Yes, they retain certain 'insect' like traits (in apostrophes because I refuse to believe Iratus are simply insects because they are ALIEN), but they are essentially hybrids themselves. And the AU McKay is quite clear about that in Vegas, so that is canon.

*thinks* I can feel a story idea coming on.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

He was not able to clone a Carson that co-operated out of his own choice. Cloning himself to stay alive would make no sense because if he dies, then clones of him would mean nothing. He would be dead, and they would be alive. They are not him. The Michael we saw in "The Prodigal" was obviously talking like he was Michael. He wasn't talking like was the mouthpiece for someone else. Michael has demonstrated that he is unable to exert mental control over clones from far away or he'd be able to get to Carson from wherever he was. It could be that he would want his clones to continue his work if he is killed, but really he always seemed like the type of guy who was doing what he was so he himself could experience it. And what would be the purpose of sending a clone with an expedition of hybrids to kidnap Teyla, and Torren and destroy Atlantis? Just in case he gets killed while doing it? He obviously wasn't planning on dieing. Are we to believe he never does anything himself and only uses "disposable" copies of himself? I'm sure he desired to captured Teyla himself.

[Tananda]

Aloha
@ QueenMalka: when will there be the next edition of Playwraith?

[Todd's Pet]

Dontcha just LOVE this thread???

From genetics and evolutionary science to Play Wraith and nekkid green blokes - and back again - in an instant!!!!

[Todd's Pet]

*thinks* I can feel a story idea coming on.

Ooh, gooodie!

[Isolde]

He was not able to clone a Carson that co-operated out of his own choice. Cloning himself to stay alive would make no sense because if he dies, then clones of him would mean nothing. He would be dead, and they would be alive. They are not him.

OK... What I actually said was that clones could be programmed to behave in any manner he wanted to, IF he wanted to. It is not a huge leap of the SF geek imagination to see that if you have that level of sophistication then programming is a possibility. Your Carson theory don't hold water because he engineered him with a fail safe (i.e. death by degradation), so why couldn't he select for more useful traits in the original psyche such as greater compliance?

Also, I did not conjecture he had a multitude of clones, merely one and that was killed in Atlantis. As for why he sent it, why wouldn't he if he had an inkling he could get killed? After all, if the plan failed, he lost nothing and he could regroup and rethink.

Ooh, gooodie!