Stargate writing women: Can they do it?

[VixyOwl (~~Ani)]

My apologies in advance for this being a long opening post for a thread!

I just *have* to ask this in a thread specific to the topic... What do other viewers think about the writing of women and femininity on Stargate? Do you feel that women are well portrayed?

Many fans point to Carter and Frasier as great examples--women we could live our lives by example. (see, for example, the "appreciation" threads for "the women of Stargate") I don't deny this.

Others point out that we, as fans and as a culture, expect too much of female characters, that they're held to a different standard than the male characters because the women are required to represent femininity, while male characters are allowed to represent all humanity. I wholeheartedly agree with this.

These are fair considerations, and I'm inclined to take issue with Stargate on both points. All too often, I see female characters (including, on occasion, Carter and Frasier) make choices based on who they're physically attracted to, not on what they believe.

I think that only very rarely do we see female characters who could, for example, be rewritten as male characters without changing their dialogue. (Hayley, Satterfield, and Merrin come to mind, but let's not forget that they're essentially juvenile, and primarily pre-sexual. The Tollan leader might be a good example--also, I think, Dr Weir.)

Let me request that this not be another 'ship or anti-'ship thread. I am asking about the incidental women--women as a group (the goddess forgive me!). How often are they as interested, for example, in "big picture" issues and how often are they merely driven by their attraction to a male character?

I feel that while male characters are shown caring primarily about their cultures, their planets, etc., women are still quite often shown as caring about these things because of a physical attraction (at least one inversion of this comes to mind, though... in "Past and Present")

Am I overlooking lots of great women characters who aren't depicted this way? Or am I somehow failing to see the big picture? Help me out. Argue with me.

Please, if your response has spoilers for seasons 7 or 8, please state so, and then leave the required 10 spaces...

[SaharaGate]

This is a great idea for a thread!

I think I agree with everything you have to say. But agreeing is no fun, so I'll try to point out some general things that might be contrary to what you're saying.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that although we often lord the women of stargate as great examples, as wonderful role models for womankind and an example of great non-sexist roles for an actress in the industry, the very fact that we and the powers that be force them to be role models in the first place puts limitations on them as human beings. It reduces their roles to the confines of their sex. And to be truly equal about things, for the characters to be written free of any gender-bias whatsoever, their role on the show aught to be interchangeable with a male character/actor. We should be able to have a male Carter and a female O'Neill with little shift in the team dynamic.

Ok. In theory, that sounds like a very fair way of dealing with the gender issue. But, although I've deliberately over-stated the ideal, I think it is an unrealistic one. It is a fictional solution in a fictional world, one that does not reflect nor inform our reality.

In real life, men and women's roles are not interchangeable by any means. And I would argue that they shouldn't be.

Yes, women are filling the same jobs as men, choosing similar career paths and some men are filling women's traditional roles by staying home while their wives are the major household earners. And yes, that is a good thing, and, yes, we still have a fair way to go - women do not have the same earning power as men as of yet.

But nor do women have the same aspirations as men do. In my soon-to-be profession of journalism, most women exit the field by 30 in order to have a family, or simply because they are burned out. This is true across the board for many professions. You don't often find women at the top of the foodchain in major organisations, because they do still tend to prioritise differently.

They still choose different roles for themselves, even when they already have the credentials, the education and the career. Anybody who's had both female and male bosses will know that their approach is often very different.

Being career-oriented myself, I've often caught myself pitying other women who have decided to have a family and stay home with their children. I thought they were missing out on something, that they'd settled before they realised their true potential.
But now I've realised that it is no longer a role forced on them by society. At least not entirely. More and more, it is becoming a choice, and a valid and fulfilling one, it seems.

They could put the company first. Or their novel-in progress. Or their Airforce career. But they decide a family, a husband and all that Jazz is more important and provides personal fulfilment that a career can't.

Carter is a really good example of this. For the last 7 years, we've seen her absolutely devoted to her job, to the military, to the safety of her planet and humans everywhere. It's only recently that we have seen her begin to value her personal life. Which it would seem is fairly typical of a 30-something yr old these days.

Women don't live by the same rules as men. For many of us, that biological clock is just too loud and annoying to ignore. So why should they live by the same rules on a TV show? Isn't it better to see how these characters deal with the same issues and choices that we ourselves face? Even better if they find a novel and unique approach to making those choices.

If you think of the traditional SG1 alien meet-and-greet, it is Daniel who is the most concerned about individuals and culture, O'Neill who is concerned about the viability and success of the overall mission, Teal'c is concerned about the immediate choices and tactics before them and Sam...well Sam is a combination. She has the military - masculine if you will - aspect of her character, the systematic, scientific side - also masculine in days gone by - and the apparently feminine trait of becoming attached and inspired to act on behalf of individuals (usually children or charming young men who women are seen to be prone to 'mothering').

But we have seen the other characters inspired in similar ways. All of them have struck up close and seemingly instantaneous relationships with children (the mothering thing).

So really, I think things are fairly even across the board.

Phew! That was a long post! Next time, I'll see if I can manage some *actual* examples from stargate...

[Bagpuss]

Oh,wow ! Great Thread idea,IMO.
All in the eye of the beholder,really,as everyone has their 2 cents to offer !
OK,VixyOwl,no ship implied/intended as motivation for any of the characters listed below.

Personally,I feel that there is a distinct imbalance overall,possibly because most of the writers and PTB are male.
Most female characters seem to pop by,then disappear,as and when they're required,and the finer details/personality ends up as a thumbnail sketch,IMO.

Take Sam Carter: She was originally written as an "In your face" Feminist,and had the character not been allowed to develop,and been given proper action/scientific story arcs,I for one would have been bored enough to end up disliking her .
(With respect to anyone who dislikes her,I like the character and always will becauseshe has flaws,and not despitethem ! )

Take Janet Fraiser: All-round professional,with an absolute commitment to the SGC. Friend to the team.Discreet,loyal,possibly the best female character I've seen so far,and the main love of her life ? Cassandra !

I have to say,I feel Sam and Janet have been written fairly well,and portrayed extremely well by AT and TR......but just as real women aren't perfect in every way,neither are the characters .

You asked for examples of other stronger female characters.
I think of Travell,Hedrazar,Kendra,Gairwyn,as IMO,they were good examples of females who looked at the broader picture.

Feminism/femininity are difficult themes at the best of times,but I personally feel there would be better characterisation in a broad sense,if the PTB simply had more female writers,or took straw Polls of REAL women,as most women I know in real life combine umpteen roles.

I agree with you about Hailey .She'd earned her place ,IMO.
I saw Satterfield as having a bit of a crush on Daniel .....that could have been her downfall in Proving Ground,as to me,that clouded her judgement.Lucky that it was a "mock-Foothold" !

Just my opinions,anyway. (Free to a good home.As usual,lol !)

[ShadowMaat]

Can the Stargate crew write strong, believable female characters? I'm sure they can, but we rarely see evidence of it.

As someone pointed out, originally, Carter was meant to be a gung-ho feminist activist. They managed to tone that down (at least partially from pleas from Amanda, if I'm reading things right) but now it feels to me that they're swinging in the opposite direction and turning Sam into a stereotypical wishy-washy girly girl. Without getting too spoilery, Icon showed us what I like to think of as Classic Sam, but there have been many more episodes (and from the sound of it, more to come), where Sam is portrayed as being much more indecisive and ruled by her emotions rather than that super-genius head of hers. She keeps letting her emotions get in the way and that puts her on unequal footing with the guys because, as a general rule, THEY don't let that happen. Daniel might be the closest match but he, at least, has the strength of his convictions behind him when he chooses to follow his "heart". Sam, as far as I can tell, is just being girly.

Fraiser is a strong, competent and full of character, but it's my personal belief that Fraiser's best character quirks are more a result of Teryl's acting and personality than anything else.

As for the females SG-1 encounters on their journeys... sure, they've met some strong female characters, but a lot of them seem to have to fall in love with one of the male team members in order to decide to do what's right. That annoys the everlasting hell out of me. Why can't women choose to help out the team because it's the right thing to do? Why do they have to have some ridiculous schoolgirl crush on one of the guys in order to grow a spine?

Of course, even when the females are strong and independent and do what's right for their own sake, they still tend to fall in wuv with someone. I can think of one particular example who was introduced last season and who will be reappearing in S8.

I like Stargate. I like most of the stories and the characters. But when things like this continue to happen it becomes distracting and it takes away from my enjoyment of the ep/series.

I don't know if having female writers would help the situation. Sometimes women can be even worse than men when it comes to stereotyping. However, it might be nice if TPTB could ease up on the testosterone factor when they're writing female characters. Expand your horizons, boys.

[aAnubiSs]

Ok Shadow. You can help me, or you can fall in love with me. The choice is yours

[ShadowMaat]

Or I can sit on the sidelines munching popcorn and watch you meet your grisly end.

[LtLisa]

I don't think that TPTB have done a particularly good job writing the women of Stargate.
1) Sam is the only woman we see regularly (every episode) and look what AT had to tell them after she knew she had the job: "Write Sam like you would any of the guys. I'll give her feminimity (I can't spell and this is a paraphrase, not a quote). In other words, TPTB just couldn't get it right (ie: watch the first 3 episodes...overly feminist Sam), so AT told em how to fix it! I mean, look at this Pete storyline....as a woman, I'm disgusted that Sam is being portrayed as a doormat and they're still saying "see? look what a strong, smart, independent woman she is!" Ummmm...no? Try again...better yet, go back to not trying cause it was better.

2) Janet: well, she was a minor role, like Hammond...we didn't see her much. We only really knew her a the Doc and Cassie's adoptive Mom. We barely even knew about her private life (an ex mentioned once). I liked her, thought she was a well written female character, but then we never saw some aspects and it might've been like Sam; Teryl gave her the femaleness.

3) Beneath the Surface: one of the best written as far as use of emotion...but TPTB changed some stuff (related to the Sam/Jack or Thera/Jona, whichever storyline) and you can see wher they did it. Whenever they write Sam in a relationship, I see parts where I say "NOOO!!! she'd do/say this!!!"

4) for the love of God, get a female PTB ASAP!!!!

[Ugly Pig]

In other words, TPTB just couldn't get it right (ie: watch the first 3 episodes...overly feminist Sam),[...]
4) for the love of God, get a female PTB ASAP!!!!

Well, since you're using the first three episodes as an example and then demanding a female PTB, I'd just like to point out that episode 3, "Emancipation", was in fact written by a woman. So there!

[LtLisa]

Well, since you're using the first three episodes as an example and then demanding a female PTB, I'd just like to point out that episode 3, "Emancipation", was in fact written by a woman. So there!

so was Beneath the Surface...I guess I wasn't clear: I want a woman Producer and/or Director...things change after everythings written; just look at BTS

Also, I honestly found Carter's overfeminist behavior worst in the briefing room scene in episode 1 and a bit in Broca Divide...I don't recall anything in Emancipation that I really objected too

[Anthro Girl]

Well, since you're using the first three episodes as an example and then demanding a female PTB, I'd just like to point out that episode 3, "Emancipation", was in fact written by a woman. So there!

Damn you, Piggy! You beat me to it! I hate "Emancipation"...unless I watch it as a comedy.

I'll compose something more thoughtful about women in Stargate after I've had some more coffee, but for now I'll just say that for the most part, I don't have any big problems with the characterizations of women in Stargate and enhancing them it isn't as simple as a female PTB, IMO. ...

[Anthro Girl]

so was Beneath the Surface...I guess I wasn't clear: I want a woman Producer and/or Director...things change after everythings written; just look at BTS

So, what did you think of "Resurrection"?

[pz1]

Really excellent thread. One I shall have to think about a lot before replying properly. My first thoughts were that that they portray women better than many others in their genre, but still there's a long way to go. Women still have to be extremely decorative when it isn't necessary (Anise / Freya?) implying that they are there mainly for male entertainment value rather than their value within the storyline. Having said that, SG is better than most, at least Sam doesn't wear Lycra!

I thought that Janet Frasier was very strong as a female role. She gave what she got without loosing her intrinsic femininity.

I'll know we've made it when a late forties, grey haired woman is given the same opportunities in the plot as an equivalent man, without having to be butch or twee. However that holds true for pretty much all TV and film.

[LtLisa]

Edited to add spoiler space (thanks for pointing that out Anthro Girl)
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So, what did you think of "Resurrection"?

::just reread the transcript since its been awhile and I don't have access to my tapes::: I liked it alot (the only thing I didn't like was that the storyline seemed out of place in the season and like more of a filler episode. that and the end...the end felt like a total rewrite...). I thought AT did a fabulous job directing. Thought Sam was very much in charge and in control in this episode, very much (re: the data retrieval unit part for one). Loved her irked response to Barret about her actually seeing someone (even though I hate Pete...).

As I recall, she got a Leo nomination for this...I hope TPTB let her direct again.

and oh yeah...how could I forget Tok'ra Spice? <rolls eyes> wasn't THAT a great portrayl of a woman...

[Beatrice Otter]

I don't think that TPTB have done a particularly good job writing the women of Stargate.
1) Sam is the only woman we see regularly (every episode) and look what AT had to tell them after she knew she had the job: "Write Sam like you would any of the guys. I'll give her feminimity (I can't spell and this is a paraphrase, not a quote). In other words, TPTB just couldn't get it right (ie: watch the first 3 episodes...overly feminist Sam), so AT told em how to fix it! I mean, look at this Pete storyline....as a woman, I'm disgusted that Sam is being portrayed as a doormat and they're still saying "see? look what a strong, smart, independent woman she is!" Ummmm...no? Try again...better yet, go back to not trying cause it was better.

Actually, as regards the Pete storyline, as a woman, I think the writers have done an excellent job. Competence, strength, and security in one area (in Sam's case, her job) do not necessarily translate to other areas of one's life. Keep in mind that it's been at least seven (and probably more) years since she's had a real relationship. In my opinion, it would be completely unrealistic if, at this point, she _weren't_ a little insecure, a little unsure, and willing to be a bit more accomodating than she normally would be. That will almost certainly change as the relationship progresses. Remember, we've seen very little of it so far, and only the early stages; as they get to know each other and she gains confidence in her own role as a person in a relationship (and not just the geeky scientist type), I would expect her to, well, gain confidence.

But I wouldn't consider her actions in Chimera to be a "doormat" by any stretch of the imagination! When Pete acts like a jerk she doesn't get a chance to call him on it because he leaves--that's the thing that makes him a jerk. The second time she sees him, he gets shot! Even then, she doesn't go all girly over him; she does promise to tell him but realistically, they have to tell him something. (Besides, having a cop they can trust and who knows the score should be a help--how many times has the SGC needed to work with the police, do stakeouts or whatever? I wouldn't be surprised if he transferred to Colorado Springs.) And then the ep is over.

[Anthro Girl]

and oh yeah...how could I forget Tok'ra Spice? <rolls eyes> wasn't THAT a great portrayl of a woman...

Oh...LOL! I think TPTB have gone on record as saying that "Tok'ra Leather Mamma" was one of the few times they followed the advice of people higher-up in the production chain (i.e., MGM) to add a "sexy alien". That was part of the joke in "Wormhole X-Treme", too. One can only hope that the fan response on that one was enough to keep the higher-ups from interfering.