Mass Effect universe discussion thread

[gotthammer]

With the smaller ships of the line becoming more and more powerful, it just feels that this is what's being set up. There's Thanix Cannons and stealth systems, for example--technologies that very well could make the dreadnought obsolete; you're essentially taking away the dreadnought's greatest advantages. The cost and upkeep of a dreadnought is going to be high, as is the crew size, which could be put to better use on a more effective carrier.

Wasn't the primary purpose of the Dread to engage at range? And what's to keep everyone from updating/upgrading the existing ships? If, say, a Dread were to be given Thanix cannons (or equivalent) to counter relatively smaller, faster targets (and, since one can assume that it can supply power more than a Frigate, have a better rate of fire or something akin to that), AND still be able to engage at ranges smaller ships can't...wouldn't that still make it 'relevant'?

So you either want to build a carrier (from scratch) that fits this profile or you want to overhaul a dreadnought to make it an effective carrier? That'd cost a small fortune in credits.

Nope, not really a carrier, per se, just give the ships, of most classes (perhaps above Frigate), the ability to carry a small contingent (think SG's 304s) of fighters. As I said, one of my fav. space operas had fleets where most of the vessels, while being able to contribute to the battle at range, can contribute to the 'knife fights' w/ fighters and point-defense. The point, more or less being, for more 'versatile' ships.
edit: of course, in the case of the space opera I'm referring to, most of the ships were around or in excess of 600m in length...so I guess they had lots of room to spare (more or less...since most of the ships' interior was probably taken up by the main weapons). Still, it allowed for some level of versatility. (never mind that the heavier engagements cost thousands of ships and millions of lives )

[Oranos]

Wasn't the primary purpose of the Dread to engage at range? And what's to keep everyone from updating/upgrading the existing ships? If, say, a Dread were to be given Thanix cannons (or equivalent) to counter relatively smaller, faster targets (and, since one can assume that it can supply power more than a Frigate, have a better rate of fire or something akin to that), AND still be able to engage at ranges smaller ships can't...wouldn't that still make it 'relevant'?

Stealth systems. Quite possibly the dreadnought's greatest advantage was its ability to nail you at long distances (and there was nothing you could do about it). But let's assume you could only be seen--the targeting computers could never get a lock. The dreadnought becomes a massive target; it can't hit you at range, and it'd even be difficult to hit you once you were in range.

Thanix Cannons. With smaller ships, the problem was that they couldn't pack the same firepower that a dreadnought could. Now imagine that a cruiser or frigate could--and effectively destroy larger, "more powerful" ships. Keep in mind that Thanix Cannons are essentially a dreadnought-type weapon; the Turians engineered them from Sovereign's wreckage.

Size. Dreadnoughts are large--this means a large crew. You have to pay them, maintain food for them--you're effectively having to run a city. If you lose the dreadnought, you're losing a lot of people. Futhermore, upkeep isn't cheap. Ensuring that the dreadnought is running smoothly costs a fair share of credits. When you bring the above factors in, your ship is just a target.

These aren't the only problems, just the biggest. If these technologies become widely used--and you have to think that they will given their effectiveness--then what are you going to do with a dreadnought? When something else can do your job more effectively, and you can't even perform yours, you know you have problems.

I do see a compromise of sorts, however. A "destroyer," if you will. It'd allow you to combine the best of frigates/cruisers and the dreadnought.

Nope, not really a carrier, per se, just give the ships, of most classes (perhaps above Frigate), the ability to carry a small contingent (think SG's 304s) of fighters. As I said, one of my fav. space operas had fleets where most of the vessels, while being able to contribute to the battle at range, can contribute to the 'knife fights' w/ fighters and point-defense. The point, more or less being, for more 'versatile' ships.

You want to retrofit the entire fleet (that's capable of it) to carry fighters? It still comes back to cost. It may not even be possible; we haven't seen one of our dreadnoughts, and it's going to depend on how it's designed.

[gotthammer]

Stealth systems. Quite possibly the dreadnought's greatest advantage was its ability to nail you at long distances (and there was nothing you could do about it). But let's assume you could only be seen--the targeting computers could never get a lock. The dreadnought becomes a massive target; it can't hit you at range, and it'd even be difficult to hit you once you were in range.

Hehe. The space opera I watched had, I assume, a similar issue: missiles could be countered and I don't think weapon 'locks' work (assumption: equivalent level of ECM/ECCM/etc.)...so they volley fire. As for ME, well, it's the future, so what's to say optics aren't advanced enough to pick out ships at range (that's actually the bit I didn't get w/ the reasoning behind Normandy's 'stealth'...granted space is 'vast and wide', but couldn't there have been a scanning program made to identify ship-like visual patterns/designs/movement...esp. in a setting w/ AI? I recall a codex entry regarding visual ID, but I forget the gist)

Thanix Cannons. With smaller ships, the problem was that they couldn't pack the same firepower that a dreadnought could. Now imagine that a cruiser or frigate could--and effectively destroy larger, "more powerful" ships. Keep in mind that Thanix Cannons are essentially a dreadnought-type weapon; the Turians engineered them from Sovereign's wreckage.

Yup. With one Dread, you could probably field a wolfpack of Frigates. Thing is, again, how much more effective could a Thanix-type weapon be on a Dread than on a Frigate? Would range/RoF/damage potential improve? And assuming you could reproduce the upgrades on the SR-2 on a larger ship, wouldn't that mean better shielding and armor?

Size. Dreadnoughts are large--this means a large crew. You have to pay them, maintain food for them--you're effectively having to run a city. If you lose the dreadnought, you're losing a lot of people. Futhermore, upkeep isn't cheap. Ensuring that the dreadnought is running smoothly costs a fair share of credits. When you bring the above factors in, your ship is just a target.

But! But! It's a space opera!
Big ships = epic looking space battles!
Well, if they can't keep crew cheap...there's always the way that the SR-2 did it: EDI-style AI. Pfft at the anti-AI conventions.

These aren't the only problems, just the biggest. If these technologies become widely used--and you have to think that they will given their effectiveness--then what are you going to do with a dreadnought? When something else can do your job more effectively, and you can't even perform yours, you know you have problems.

I do see a compromise of sorts, however. A "destroyer," if you will. It'd allow you to combine the best of frigates/cruisers and the dreadnought.

I did find 'dreadnought' a weird term for that class in-game, tho'. Maybe coz' it sounds 'cooler' than Battleship? Hehe, who knows, maybe that really is to hint at the class' eventual move toward being obsolete.

You want to retrofit the entire fleet (that's capable of it) to carry fighters? It still comes back to cost. It may not even be possible; we haven't seen one of our dreadnoughts, and it's going to depend on how it's designed.

Nah. Just throwing in my opinion that it would be nice if they were more versatile, tho' you do have a point in that I don't think the exact specs of a Dread (for any species, I think) has been laid out (and I've yet to finish both ME novels, so I wouldn't know if they had any)...so who knows, maybe they do have the capability to field a squadron or more.

[Oranos]

Hehe. The space opera I watched had, I assume, a similar issue: missiles could be countered and I don't think weapon 'locks' work (assumption: equivalent level of ECM/ECCM/etc.)...so they volley fire. As for ME, well, it's the future, so what's to say optics aren't advanced enough to pick out ships at range (that's actually the bit I didn't get w/ the reasoning behind Normandy's 'stealth'...granted space is 'vast and wide', but couldn't there have been a scanning program made to identify ship-like visual patterns/designs/movement...esp. in a setting w/ AI? I recall a codex entry regarding visual ID, but I forget the gist)

I don't remember exactly what the codex says about this either, so I can't help you there.

As for countering Normandy's stealth systems, it's obviously possible. The Collectors proved that much. But it's an edge that none of the other races seem to have.

Yup. With one Dread, you could probably field a wolfpack of Frigates. Thing is, again, how much more effective could a Thanix-type weapon be on a Dread than on a Frigate? Would range/RoF/damage potential improve? And assuming you could reproduce the upgrades on the SR-2 on a larger ship, wouldn't that mean better shielding and armor?

Even a retired battleship today packs more punch and more armor than the cruisers, destroyers, and frigates. The point is that--even despite that edge--the other classes are deadly enough that it didn't matter. Thanix Cannons are going to make the other classes that deadly.

But! But! It's a space opera!
Big ships = epic looking space battles!
Well, if they can't keep crew cheap...there's always the way that the SR-2 did it: EDI-style AI. Pfft at the anti-AI conventions.

The AI was outlawed for a reason. How many times has that come back to haunt people/aliens?

EDI is different (for one reason and one reason only). She'd never turn on her one true love, Joker.

I did find 'dreadnought' a weird term for that class in-game, tho'. Maybe coz' it sounds 'cooler' than Battleship? Hehe, who knows, maybe that really is to hint at the class' eventual move toward being obsolete.

It probably stems from the H. M. S. Dreadnought--that is, the first modern battleship. I assume it caught on from there; most battleships then being referred to as dreadnoughts.

Nah. Just throwing in my opinion that it would be nice if they were more versatile, tho' you do have a point in that I don't think the exact specs of a Dread (for any species, I think) has been laid out (and I've yet to finish both ME novels, so I wouldn't know if they had any)...so who knows, maybe they do have the capability to field a squadron or more.

The only dreadnoughts we've seen are the Reapers. And the Asari's Destiny Ascension.

[Giantevilhead]

Even though humans have numerous settlements in the Terminus Systems? That kind of throws a wrench in your claim.



Fair enough.

But doesn't that have more to say about Sovereign than anything? That was pretty much, hands down, the most powerful dreadnought in the Battle of the Citadel. But if it wasn't for the 3rd Infiltration Regiment, Saren would have had an army of Krogan behind him and Shepard never would have had access to the Prothean Beacon. I'd say the STG did their part (and it was an important one). Of course, I may be a little biased. Kirrahe was freakin' awesome.



The Treaty of Farixen, yes. Which is based on the Washington Naval Treaty. I know.

Humanity coined several innovations to get around the treaty--carriers, for example.

Of course, if dreadnoughts are the ultimate weapon, as you so claim, someone had better tell that to the Asari. I'm sure they'll be embarrassed that the Destiny Ascension (the most powerful dreadnought outside of the Reapers) was either a.) destroyed or b.) very nearly destroyed. By Geth Dropships. Which are classified as frigates.



Their motives--though not necessarily their actions--are mysterious. Furthermore, we know more about the Geth (as a race) than the Xindi. What was even known about the Xindi before they attacked?



Saren is known to be absolutely brutal with an intense hatred of humanity, which stems from his brother's death in the First Contact War. This is speculated to be the reason for the attack on Eden Prime. "Revelation" confirms that Saren was planning to use Sovereign as an instrument for revenge. I'd say people knew him pretty well. But that's just me.

Just because his motives become blurred doesn't make his original motives any less true.



It's still politics. When does it ever work like it should?



Shepard doesn't really have a choice. The Alliance and the Council can't officially take action in the Terminus Systems. Cerberus is the only powerhouse that has the money, means, and information to make Shepard's mission a success.



Shepard can be a Spectre at this point. Who's going to try to arrest you? Anybody gets in your way, deal with them. Spectres are above the law (and the only people you answer to are on the Council).



Cerberus operates in this morally gray area. You've seen them at their worse, occasionally at their best, and even somewhere in between. Truth be told, Cerberus hasn't even really done anything that's worse than what the Council has done.



I'm just curious. How much did you actually talk to others?



I must be out of my mind. Or I've been having some vivid dreams. Or something. But maybe someone here can confirm or deny. I seem to remember that someone--don't know who, don't know why--speculates that the Keepers may have been genetically repurposed (in the same fashion as the Collectors).

If you're going to strawmen all my arguments then why even bother responding to them at all?

[Oranos]

If you're going to strawmen all my arguments then why even bother responding to them at all?

Uh. Yeah. Okay.

Upon reading through, a couple of my points weren't as clear as I thought they sounded when I first wrote them; I was up pretty late if the time stamp was any indication so that was probably a contributing factor. Sorry if that caused some confusion. I'd be happy to explain anything that you weren't clear on.

But I believe I asked legitimate questions and/or responded sufficiently to what I thought your claim was. Either you didn't convey what you meant very well or I misunderstood what you meant.

[dosed150]

one of the codex entries states that dreadnaughts do carry a limited complement of fighters

[gotthammer]

one of the codex entries states that dreadnaughts do carry a limited complement of fighters

Ooh. Must have missed that. I really wish they'd come out w/ those tech readout-like thingies that Star Wars had, w/ cutouts and ship interior images and the sort. I'm a sucker for stuff like that.

edit: gah. which reminds me that I should be looking for my copy of Renegade Legion: Leviathan. It'd be cooler if games fleshed out their tech enough to give at least stuff like how fast a ship can turn, or the optimal engagement range (and if it had minimal range 'umbrella' and stuff like that).

[Ouroboros]

No Mass Effect thread is complete without.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEbZNOAsYl4

God I hated that scanning. So much scanning, but I did it all and it was worth it in the end watching that collector ship get its comeuppance.

I've got to wonder though. If i've got 11 people "loyal" to me plus normal ship's crew members can't I delegate this to Tali or Legion, or how 'bout the ships built in AI?

ME2 was the best game I've played in a good long while, quite possibly even the best game I've ever played in terms of it being a story that one participates in. The story might not necessarily be that original or groundbreaking in its content but the presentation and directing and voice acting in this game were on a level I've never seen in another.



So being honest now how did everyone's suicide mission go. Did you flub it horribly or get everyone through on your first try?

I only lost Zaeed in mine because I made him a fire team leader which apparently he sucks at despite what you might think.

I actually felt the loss to because he was one of my favorites. Him and Jack were my go to team for most of my first play through. We had a nice little "the scary side of humanity says hi" aesthetic going on which was funny since my guy ended up almost totally paragon by the end.

Definitely liked the characters way more in this one than the first. ME1 had Wrex but the others were kind of lacking, especially the romance options. My Shep stayed a bachelor all through ME1 just because I couldn't stand either Ashley or Liara. It wasn't till ME2 that he finally got to meet the little bald psychopath of his dreams.

[gotthammer]

re: suicide mission ( I didn't really load, I just wanted to finish it )
I think I just lost Legion. I sent him into the ducts...I forgot who else I assigned to what. Zaeed as squad leader the first time? (I'm sure he's the one who lead the survivors back to the Normandy)

re: romance
hmm...didn't do any.

re: Scanning
Heh. It was amusing for a while...then it got really tedious.(and I think my wrist started to hurt...)
And yeah, you're not the first to suggest delegating that tedious task to the AI...would be nice if you could, tho'.
I'm really looking forward to the Hammerhead.

[s09119]

No Mass Effect thread is complete without.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEbZNOAsYl4

God I hated that scanning. So much scanning, but I did it all and it was worth it in the end watching that collector ship get its comeuppance.

I've got to wonder though. If i've got 11 people "loyal" to me plus normal ship's crew members can't I delegate this to Tali or Legion, or how 'bout the ships built in AI?

ME2 was the best game I've played in a good long while, quite possibly even the best game I've ever played in terms of it being a story that one participates in. The story might not necessarily be that original or groundbreaking in its content but the presentation and directing and voice acting in this game were on a level I've never seen in another.



So being honest now how did everyone's suicide mission go. Did you flub it horribly or get everyone through on your first try?

I only lost Zaeed in mine because I made him a fire team leader which apparently he sucks at despite what you might think.

I actually felt the loss to because he was one of my favorites. Him and Jack were my go to team for most of my first play through. We had a nice little "the scary side of humanity says hi" aesthetic going on which was funny since my guy ended up almost totally paragon by the end.

Definitely liked the characters way more in this one than the first. ME1 had Wrex but the others were kind of lacking, especially the romance options. My Shep stayed a bachelor all through ME1 just because I couldn't stand either Ashley or Liara. It wasn't till ME2 that he finally got to meet the little bald psychopath of his dreams.

I didn't mind the scanning, honestly.

On the suicide mission note, I survived and pulled my whole team through =] I slept with Liara in the first game since I really thought she was great, but in the second game she just became so cold and unfeeling that I ultimately chose the defrosted Ice Queen that is Miranda instead. Perfect mix of attitude, brains, and biotic devastation <3

[Oranos]

So being honest now how did everyone's suicide mission go. Did you flub it horribly or get everyone through on your first try?

Better than I thought it would. I chose not to do everything...wanted to save some "surprises" for my main playthrough. I think I lost Jacob, Jack (thank you God!), Mordin (which just sucked), Samara and Grunt. Pity. I was trying to off Zaeed, but that just never worked out.

I only lost Zaeed in mine because I made him a fire team leader which apparently he sucks at despite what you might think.

That's one thing I honesty don't understand. So many people think he's an effective team leader. But every story he tells you--in which he and his team(s) go up against suicide odds--he's the only one that ever comes out alive. He really doesn't seem to care about those under his command at all.

If you pay close attention to the stories and each character's job, you can pretty much figure out who's going to be good at what.

I actually felt the loss to because he was one of my favorites. Him and Jack were my go to team for most of my first play through. We had a nice little "the scary side of humanity says hi" aesthetic going on which was funny since my guy ended up almost totally paragon by the end.

That's funny. My two least favorites.

Definitely liked the characters way more in this one than the first. ME1 had Wrex but the others were kind of lacking, especially the romance options. My Shep stayed a bachelor all through ME1 just because I couldn't stand either Ashley or Liara. It wasn't till ME2 that he finally got to meet the little bald psychopath of his dreams.

...Garrus. And Wrex.

Actually, I "romanced" Ash (just so I could laugh at her on Virmire). Yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am curious though. How exactly do you stay single? I've tried it before (and I always have either Liara or Ash show up at my door). I tell them off throughout the game, choose Renegade options, but it doesn't seem to work. Any advice you could give would be appreciated.

[Ouroboros]

I didn't mind the scanning, honestly.

On the suicide mission note, I survived and pulled my whole team through =] I slept with Liara in the first game since I really thought she was great, but in the second game she just became so cold and unfeeling that I ultimately chose the defrosted Ice Queen that is Miranda instead. Perfect mix of attitude, brains, and biotic devastation <3

I never talked much to Miranda. My main Sheppard has the Sole Survivor backstory so I like to imagine he just drinks with Jack and Tali and they swap stories about what a bunch of toolbags Cerberus are. Miranda and the Illusive man are both always like "oh Cerberus did X horrific thing did they, well that wasn't really Cerberus you see. The real Cerberus is all about rainbows and kittens not human supremacy, crimes against sentience, unethical abuse of science and general intergalactic douchery".

I still gave the base to them at the end though, but only because I plan to take it for myself/the alliance later once the Illusive man starts trusting me enough that I can bump him off in person.

I'm really looking forward to the Hammerhead.

Me to. I know a lot of people hated the mako but the scanning was a poor replacement for it. Some of the alien landscapes you could drive across in the first game were visually incredible.

Better than I thought it would. I chose not to do everything...wanted to save some "surprises" for my main playthrough. I think I lost Jacob, Jack (thank you God!), Mordin (which just sucked), Samara and Grunt. Pity. I was trying to off Zaeed, but that just never worked out.

Wow, quite the bloodbath there. I made sure I got all the upgrades and I was still nervous it was going to get me because I didn't do some side quest or something.

That's one thing I honesty don't understand. So many people think he's an effective team leader. But every story he tells you--in which he and his team(s) go up against suicide odds--he's the only one that ever comes out alive. He really doesn't seem to care about those under his command at all.

You would think that would cause somebody else to die if you put them under his command though, not him. I figured because of all of his "I survived this and that, only one to make it out alive" type stories that there's no way he'd get himself killed.

If you pay close attention to the stories and each character's job, you can pretty much figure out who's going to be good at what.

Yeah they make it pretty easy for you at times but do throw in a few red herrings. The one that caught me out was when Miranda offers to lead one of the teams and Jack starts in about how nobody wants to follow her. It made me think, "wait most of my crew is aliens and she pretty much is the Cerberus cheerleader. There might just be something to that."

I picked Garrus to lead the first team cause come on, it's Garrus, and that's what made me pick Zaeed for the second. I didn't want to use Garrus again because I figured he might be tired or something and the game would kill him if I used him both times and Miranda seemed like the aliens would mistrust her like I said. Jacob was going to be my next choice but I went with Zaeed because he seemed to have more experience with small unit tactics and he wasn't Cerberus.

That's funny. My two least favorites.

Lots of people hate Jack but she gets really cute and funny once you talk to her enough and her badass routine starts to become transparent to Sheppard. Samara's another character that you really need to talk to a lot to appreciate. She'll seem pretty dull otherwise.

I loved Zaeed's voice actor. I kept taking him for that reason alone.

...Garrus. And Wrex.

Tali/Wrex/Garrus was my ME1 rotation.

Actually, I "romanced" Ash (just so I could laugh at her on Virmire). Yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I thought about going back and romancing her in ME1 just so I can watch Jack squish her in ME3.

I am curious though. How exactly do you stay single? I've tried it before (and I always have either Liara or Ash show up at my door). I tell them off throughout the game, choose Renegade options, but it doesn't seem to work. Any advice you could give would be appreciated.

It's pretty easy, just stop talking to them when they start weirdly reciting poetry to you. I stayed a bachelor just by never really talking much to either Ash or Liara. I think Ash might still have shown up at the end anyway but I just told her to get lost.

When I hear the name "Ashley Williams" I only think of one thing.



If your Shep needs female contact he can talk to Tali, she won't try to jump his bones.

That is one thing I wish they'd work on though. There should be a way to finish all the character dialog without the game thinking your character automatically wants to romance them. I don't think it's quite as bad as in the first one though, in that one you had to almost go out of your way to make sure one of them doesn't come sniffing under your door at the end. I never talked to Liara very much with either gender for example because she's an obsessive little landmine for both of them.

[Oranos]

Wow, quite the bloodbath there. I made sure I got all the upgrades and I was still nervous it was going to get me because I didn't do some side quest or something.

I skipped out on quite a bit of scanning--so I think missed out on a couple of upgrades. And I didn't do several loyalty missions--so again, problems. And I followed Jacob's advice and sent him into the vents. And apparently Mordin sucks at holding the line (which, I suppose isn't a surprise). Like I said, just wanted to save some surprises for my main playthrough.

You would think that would cause somebody else to die if you put them under his command though, not him. I figured because of all of his "I survived this and that, only one to make it out alive" type stories that there's no way he'd get himself killed.

It had to catch up to him eventually.

But truthfully, your statement isn't technically true. Choosing a poor team leader can get your team killed.

Yeah they make it pretty easy for you at times but do throw in a few red herrings. The one that caught me out was when Miranda offers to lead one of the teams and Jack starts in about how nobody wants to follow her. It made me think, "wait most of my crew is aliens and she pretty much is the Cerberus cheerleader. There might just be something to that."

Most of the team doesn't seem to have a problem with Cerberus (or chooses to overlook it); Jack and Tali are the only real exceptions that I can remember.

I picked Garrus to lead the first team cause come on, it's Garrus, and that's what made me pick Zaeed for the second. I didn't want to use Garrus again because I figured he might be tired or something and the game would kill him if I used him both times and Miranda seemed like the aliens would mistrust her like I said. Jacob was going to be my next choice but I went with Zaeed because he seemed to have more experience with small unit tactics and he wasn't Cerberus.

Are we talking about the same Garrus? The Turian bad@$$? The guy who held off not one, not two, but three mercenary groups--the toughest on Omega--for an extended period of time. Tired ain't got nothing on Garrus.

Lots of people hate Jack but she gets really cute and funny once you talk to her enough and her badass routine starts to become transparent to Sheppard. Samara's another character that you really need to talk to a lot to appreciate. She'll seem pretty dull otherwise.

I just never really clicked with Jack. Which is odd because I was sure she was going to be one of my favorites from what I'd seen. Her skillset was horrible too, especially on insanity.

Samara hates me. Apparently I'm a little too Renegade.

I loved Zaeed's voice actor. I kept taking him for that reason alone.

You know, I wasn't a fan of his. But I think that's the only one I can say that about.

It's pretty easy, just stop talking to them when they start weirdly reciting poetry to you. I stayed a bachelor just by never really talking much to either Ash or Liara. I think Ash might still have shown up at the end anyway but I just told her to get lost.

And that's the problem. Even when you turn them down like that, it still counts as a romance (at least from what I understand). Their picture still shows up in your cabin in ME2.

If your Shep needs female contact he can talk to Tali, she won't try to jump his bones.

Funny you should say that. She was supposed to be a love interest in the first game.

That is one thing I wish they'd work on though. There should be a way to finish all the character dialog without the game thinking your character automatically wants to romance them. I don't think it's quite as bad as in the first one though, in that one you had to almost go out of your way to make sure one of them doesn't come sniffing under your door at the end. I never talked to Liara very much with either gender for example because she's an obsessive little landmine for both of them.

It's nowhere near as bad. It's rocket science trying to figure out a way to not enter a romance with Liara and Ash.

[Ouroboros]

I skipped out on quite a bit of scanning--so I think missed out on a couple of upgrades. And I didn't do several loyalty missions--so again, problems. And I followed Jacob's advice and sent him into the vents. And apparently Mordin sucks at holding the line (which, I suppose isn't a surprise). Like I said, just wanted to save some surprises for my main playthrough.

Mordin even has a line where he mocks Kirrahe's "hold the line" stuff from the first game saying something like he just prefers to get the job done and go home instead.

Apparently he dies because he's first on the games unseen death list for that final section. If you don't leave enough "good defenders" like Grunt, Garrus and Zaeed behind to "hold the line" the game kills Mordin.

It had to catch up to him eventually.

I think that was basically what he said before he croaked to.

But truthfully, your statement isn't technically true. Choosing a poor team leader can get your team killed.

Yeah. The first time you choose one if you pick a bad one it'll kill somebody else. I picked Zaeed the second time though.

Most of the team doesn't seem to have a problem with Cerberus (or chooses to overlook it); Jack and Tali are the only real exceptions that I can remember.

Apparently if Jack dies in the cinematic before the mission starts Garrus pipes up instead. Even still it's basically a human supremacist organization and she's obviously totally on board with its core "humans first" philosophy. Jacob seemed more conflicted on things.

Are we talking about the same Garrus? The Turian bad@$$? The guy who held off not one, not two, but three mercenary groups--the toughest on Omega--for an extended period of time. Tired ain't got nothing on Garrus.

It really bothered me how he gets a new suit of armour after his loyalty mission and it's still got a hole shot through it. I mean there's even a model in the game already with no damage on it. Why didn't they just recolour that one instead?

I just never really clicked with Jack. Which is odd because I was sure she was going to be one of my favorites from what I'd seen. Her skillset was horrible too, especially on insanity.

Shockwave works on enemies even if their shields are up, occasionally dropping them in the process and punting a dude to the moon. Mostly though it's nice because it stuns enemies for a couple seconds, even if their shields are up, and if you give her the adept specialization her cooldowns get really short. I won't deny she's way more useful on easier settings when everything doesn't have shields, even borderline cheap, but redded out biotics can still be used, they're just not as effective. Warp ammo sure is though.

Samara hates me. Apparently I'm a little too Renegade.

Threatened to kill you did she?

You know, I wasn't a fan of his. But I think that's the only one I can say that about.

Really. I was very disappointed that they couldn't seem to get the Sheppard voice actors back to actually record proper conversations with him. There's another DLC character on the way to, you can already see her in the character screen if you manipulate certain game files though obviously she's not usable yet. I wonder if they're just going to do the same sort of thing with her.

And that's the problem. Even when you turn them down like that, it still counts as a romance (at least from what I understand). Their picture still shows up in your cabin in ME2.

Maybe I'm thinking of some other play through then because I didn't have anyone's picture on my desk.

It would be kind of funny to do it that way though, if the game still flags the last minute rejection as a romance. Reject them at the end, romance someone else in ME2, then have them come at you all psycho stalker in part 3 talking about this "relationship" that you supposedly had with them and how you cheated.

Funny you should say that. She was supposed to be a love interest in the first game.

I heard the exact opposite really. That they never made her a romance option because they didn't think anyone would want to romance a girl with "chicken feet".

It's nowhere near as bad. It's rocket science trying to figure out a way to not enter a romance with Liara and Ash.

They really need to just put in some kind of conversation thread near the end with all the potential romance interests where you can undo any sort of romance "points" or whatever you may have unwittingly built up with them.

It could even be fun. Range it from "it's not you it's me, no really" if you're a paragon to "oh my god you and me, no seriously you thought that.... oh god I need a shower" for renegade.