The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

An education system that does just that, educates the children is a fine thing, and something that I support.
However, that is not what we have in place today.

What the hell would you know about what it is today?
All you see and read is filtered by your own bias, and I see ZERO evidence that you want to challenge that bias. I am asking you to discuss the issue, be willing to "threaten" my own bias (as you see it), but you will not.

It has been perverted into a system with two primary goals; lining the pockets of its employees and political indoctrination of its students.

OK.
Point one, lining it's pockets. exactly WHO are you talking about here?
It's not the teachers, because teachers spend money out of their own pockets to provide supplies for schools and are paid a pittance to do their jobs in the USA.
You want to talk about the structure of the management and politicians (or even the unions) lining their pockets, then talk about that, because it isn't the teachers who are "winning" here.
But you just say "teachers" and the "teachers union".

The rise in tuition has been roughly twice the rate of inflation for a very long time now. Is it any wonder that students have to go into debt for the rest of their lives these days?

So, you want complain about teachers, while actually talking about university professors or local college professionals?
Why not compare the pay of soldiers to the support structure around them?
Nah, too easy to blame the grunts.

So, of course the left's idea is the same as always, pour more taxpayer dollars into it, which is what allows the costs to rise in the first place.

Look at your military again, not the soldiers, but the bloated support structure around them.
Now, let me blame the brave men and women who spend their lives doing the job you do not, or cannot do. That's what you do.

Your argument is not about teachers or soldiers, it's about government mismanagement, so actually talk about that.

What's wrong with forcing the costs into line to restore affordability?

Nothing at all. How has your deficit gone under trump? Where is it projected to end? If trump has such a good economy, why is his deficit projected to be WORSE than Obama's who inherited the GFC? (or are you going to say it never happened or blame someone else again?)

Regarding financing, there is a large urban school district in a nearby city that I've referred to before; having the one of the highest spending per student stats in the country, but has at the same time, one of the most pathetic results in the country. It's graduation rate has been below 50% for most of its recent history, only recently getting above that mark.

Is it public, college, or university?

This district is in financial hot water because it exceeded its budget, spending roughly 30 million dollars over and above what its budget allowed, with much of that spending going towards employee payroll & benefits of one sort or another. Just coincidentally, when the budget was being drawn up, there was a shortfall of 40 million that they couldn't seem to eliminate.

Once more, that is government graft, not teachers. How are you so incapable of separating these issues?
How about I blame soldiers? That's your "deal" right? Patriotism and doing what is right for those who fought for you.
Got some bone spurs?

So in short, they wanted the money, and spent it anyway, expecting someone else, either the city or the state to just step in and bail them out.

WHO??
Your evidence, such as it is, says nothing at all about who or why there is a shortfall. Provide better evidence, or you are junk science.

I haven't referred to this scandal prior to this as the story is still being investigated, we don't have all the details yet.

Birth certificate.
Bhenghazi
Bill Clinton.
Didn't have evidence for them either, but you held onto them, didn't you?

And as far as the political indoctrination and so forth goes, We've beaten that horse till there isn't even a carcass left. I know it exists, you deny it, so we'll just leave that there.

No, I have stated education is a progressive notion, and non education is a regressive notion. it is YOU who have associated progressivism with the left, which is hilarious considering the GOP was FOUNDED on progressive notions. Not only the GOP, but the USA as a whole. The constitution of the USA was the most progressive piece of legislation of it's time.

Now you decry the very thing that made you "great" and vilify it's inherent concept of "all men being created equal" (quite a socialist concept), and expect that attitude to restore you to greatness?

I don't deny all aspects of science. However, when junk science is used to force a leftist political agenda, I will call it what it is. BS.

Junk science is a nice term isn't it?, it allows you to ignore whatever you don't agree with. So yes, you ignore science. Science does not have a political agenda, it either is, is not, or being explored with the answer of "we don't know yet"
Then there is the issue of "settled science"
Science is never "settled", simply because we don't know everything, and we may never know everything, but if we simply deny information because it comes from a source we don't like, we fail. Apply your own rationale for that, and ask why you did it.

I don't have to have children in order to observe the results of what we are doing these days.

Yet, you say people who did not live before you or a contemporaries have no clue about the 50's and 60's?
How arrogant of you.

And might I point out that before the boomers screwed things up, most couples could afford that "one parent at home" way of doing things on their own, without need of freebies? (K-12 education has always been free)

The boomers screwed things up, but you support them even now?
So, who do you actually care about?
YOU, or the USA?
The USA is great because of what it stands for on principle, not it's individual parts, much like any democracy.

[Annoyed]

What the hell would you know about what it is today?
All you see and read is filtered by your own bias, and I see ZERO evidence that you want to challenge that bias. I am asking you to discuss the issue, be willing to "threaten" my own bias (as you see it), but you will not.

You can call it bias, but in my mind, I've already looked at the issue and decided where I think the problem is.
[edit]
I've tried to show you info that challenges your ideas. I've described a glaring example of revisionist history that became apparent a while back, involving a niece not being taught an accurate history of WWII in order to paint the US as a bad guy for using nukes to put Japan down and end WWII with as little loss of life as possible.

I've also described the classrooms I found when I had reason to be in the high school I graduated from a few years back, numerous posters all over the place pushing various left-leaning ideas. These are examples I've personally seen.

I've explained this nearby city's crappy schools many times before; extremely high spending per student and utterly pathetic results; only recently has the graduation rate poked above 50%. That is a failing grade on a test, and it is a failing grade for a school system, but this situation has persisted for DECADES.

But you disregard these as meaningless. Indeed, in your post above, you wrote it off as government corruption overall, rather than a problem with the schools themselves, in addition to the overall corruption.

You are no more willing to accept a different idea than I am.

OK.
Point one, lining it's pockets. exactly WHO are you talking about here?
It's not the teachers, because teachers spend money out of their own pockets to provide supplies for schools and are paid a pittance to do their jobs in the USA.
You want to talk about the structure of the management and politicians (or even the unions) lining their pockets, then talk about that, because it isn't the teachers who are "winning" here.
But you just say "teachers" and the "teachers union".

I'm not specifically blaming any particular level, be it K-12, college or whatever. Do I not usually phrase it as "education industry"? As far as I'm concerned, the entire industry at all levels is as corrupt as a 3 dollar bill, and needs to be scrapped & rebuilt from scratch.

That district that is so screwed up is one of the 5 largest cities in NY state.

[Annoyed]

Poor thing. I hope they find a good home for her.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ld-trumps-ele/

[jelgate]

I think it's time we put Annoyed in a home.

[SoulReaver]

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ld-trumps-ele/

look another piece of garbage Government propaganda where the author 1) admits the majority of people were against Trump 2) says the People are less important than the state and 3) still thinks people care about imaginary mails on a toilet server

[Gatefan1976]

You can call it bias, but in my mind, I've already looked at the issue and decided where I think the problem is.

Yet, you still cannot engage, discuss or challenge yourself.
I'm willing to, you are not.
So who here is the lamb being lead to slaughter?

[edit]
I've tried to show you info that challenges your ideas. I've described a glaring example of revisionist history that became apparent a while back, involving a niece not being taught an accurate history of WWII in order to paint the US as a bad guy for using nukes to put Japan down and end WWII with as little loss of life as possible.

What you have shown is your opinion based on one close family example, and a few posters in a school.
You have 3 points of evidence.
Do you even DARE contemplate how many others beyond 3 exist?

I've also described the classrooms I found when I had reason to be in the high school I graduated from a few years back, numerous posters all over the place pushing various left-leaning ideas. These are examples I've personally seen.

A few?
What exactly do you consider "left leaning" ideals?
How about I give links for HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of links supporting right wing ideals advocating violence and destruction?
You will simply pussy out again I guess, because you don't have the balls to threaten your own convictions.
You are too much of a coward.

I've explained this nearby city's crappy schools many times before; extremely high spending per student and utterly pathetic results; only recently has the graduation rate poked above 50%. That is a failing grade on a test, and it is a failing grade for a school system, but this situation has persisted for DECADES.

Your credibility is less than half that, so how much of a failure are you?
Have you not got it yet?
Of course not, silly question, you are beyond seeing your own selfish desires.

But you disregard these as meaningless. Indeed, in your post above, you wrote it off as government corruption overall, rather than a problem with the schools themselves, in addition to the overall corruption.

No, I wrote it off to government and corporate corruption, and if you actually got off your arse and worked out how that works, and realised I don't care what side does it to want it punished, you might actually learn something in your sad, miserable life.

You are no more willing to accept a different idea than I am.

Like hell.
I am willing to discuss alternatives to our issues, and if you BOTHERED to read my post's you might actually realise we can actually agree sometimes.
But no, being a self serving person, interested in no one but yourself makes up for that sense of loss. It's the principle of billionares, Me first, Money provides power.
You will never have money, so you will never have power.
I don't expect you to respond, or have any kind of self reflection here, your history of cowardice is well seen here, because the few who simply bother, don't respond to your madness anymore.
Have a scotch on trump, you poor deluded fool, just don't expect him to pay for it.

I'm not specifically blaming any particular level, be it K-12, college or whatever. Do I not usually phrase it as "education industry"? As far as I'm concerned, the entire industry at all levels is as corrupt as a 3 dollar bill, and needs to be scrapped & rebuilt from scratch.

This is beyond ignorant.

That district that is so screwed up is one of the 5 largest cities in NY state.

Compare it to WVA you fool, want to bring the entire US down to it's level?

[aretood2]

An education system that does just that, educates the children is a fine thing, and something that I support.
However, that is not what we have in place today.

It has been perverted into a system with two primary goals; lining the pockets of its employees and political indoctrination of its students.

The rise in tuition has been roughly twice the rate of inflation for a very long time now. Is it any wonder that students have to go into debt for the rest of their lives these days?

Imaginary goals based on pure speculation of which you have claimed to be insufficient with which ot base opinions, but here you are once again using speculation. As for inflation you'll find that many products and services either outperform CPI or underperform it given that CPI is an average. Kinda like how average life expectancy in the middle ages was 30 but many people lived to their 60s and some to their 90s. The infant mortality is what brought down the average life expectancy.

Most of the issues with tuition have little to do with the professors themselves and more to do with the bean counters who have nothing to do with what goes on in college halls. Most of the expenses colleges have involve marketing and the sports departments, frankly there's a lot they could to do cut back and most of it has little to do with professors and students. These issues are mostly related to private universities in any event.

So, of course the left's idea is the same as always, pour more taxpayer dollars into it, which is what allows the costs to rise in the first place.

No, not really. That's not how it works at all.

What's wrong with forcing the costs into line to restore affordability?

That would be communism.

Regarding financing, there is a large urban school district in a nearby city that I've referred to before; having the one of the highest spending per student stats in the country, but has at the same time, one of the most pathetic results in the country. It's graduation rate has been below 50% for most of its recent history, only recently getting above that mark.

Hardly representative.

This district is in financial hot water because it exceeded its budget, spending roughly 30 million dollars over and above what its budget allowed, with much of that spending going towards employee payroll & benefits of one sort or another. Just coincidentally, when the budget was being drawn up, there was a shortfall of 40 million that they couldn't seem to eliminate.

Like I said, hardly representative of anything.

So in short, they wanted the money, and spent it anyway, expecting someone else, either the city or the state to just step in and bail them out.

God forbid people get paid decent wages and students get proper resources for education.

I haven't referred to this scandal prior to this as the story is still being investigated, we don't have all the details yet.

A scandal? No institution ever has scandals. Surely you must be making all of this up! It's impossible for any institution of any kind to have a scandal!!!!

And as far as the political indoctrination and so forth goes, We've beaten that horse till there isn't even a carcass left. I know it exists, you deny it, so we'll just leave that there.

It's hard to know something with no evidence of it.

I don't deny all aspects of science. However, when junk science is used to force a leftist political agenda, I will call it what it is. BS.

Climate change is the accepted science. Schools teach the accepted Science. Take up this issue with scientists, not schools who merely report the science. You don't see me complaining about evolution being taught in schools.

Lack of such severe partisanship would be more obvious.

Or your views are just out of touch with reality, but you being wrong is downright impossible. After all, you're omniscient because old.

I don't have to have children in order to observe the results of what we are doing these days.

Because third hand knowledge is so accurate?...wait...does this mean the whistleblower doesn't need first hand knowledge?


Then you bring up this nonsense about your niece who was in an honors class of which she couldn't remember Pearl harbor despite the fact that my merit students (under honors level) seem to know about it before we even cover the war. The thing about honors programs is...most of them are a joke. So many parents shoehorn their kids in honors classes it's gotten to the point where they are dumbed down because administrators don't want to explain to parents that their kids aren't actually as smart as they think they are.

In any case I have had many cases where I have gone over an event, two weeks later I ask about it and they claim that I never covered it...until I force them to open their notes...then they just sit there incredulous. By the way, one student versus millions? How is that any measure of well...anything?

And might I point out that before the boomers screwed things up, most couples could afford that "one parent at home" way of doing things on their own, without need of freebies? (K-12 education has always been free)

That wasn't as widespread as you think.

You can call it bias, but in my mind, I've already looked at the issue and decided where I think the problem is.
[edit]
I've tried to show you info that challenges your ideas. I've described a glaring example of revisionist history that became apparent a while back, involving a niece not being taught an accurate history of WWII in order to paint the US as a bad guy for using nukes to put Japan down and end WWII with as little loss of life as possible.

Total BS. I spend two weeks on WWII and half that time I cover the atrocities of Japan from Nanjing to Pearl harbor to the forced marches in the philippines. Everyone in the department cover that. It's a tested item that they have to know in the AP exam for those taking AP classes.

I've also described the classrooms I found when I had reason to be in the high school I graduated from a few years back, numerous posters all over the place pushing various left-leaning ideas. These are examples I've personally seen.

You've never actually said what those posters say and how they look like, much less produce them.

I've explained this nearby city's crappy schools many times before; extremely high spending per student and utterly pathetic results; only recently has the graduation rate poked above 50%. That is a failing grade on a test, and it is a failing grade for a school system, but this situation has persisted for DECADES.

Like I said, hardly representative of all the schools of a nation of 300 Million plus.

But you disregard these as meaningless. Indeed, in your post above, you wrote it off as government corruption overall, rather than a problem with the schools themselves, in addition to the overall corruption.

Because you use miniscule anecdotal evidence and third hand account (notice it's singular) to make such broad all encompassing claims via the mother of all speculations.

[Gatefan1976]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYKxtI3AkSg

[Annoyed]

Imaginary goals based on pure speculation of which you have claimed to be insufficient with which ot base opinions, but here you are once again using speculation. As for inflation you'll find that many products and services either outperform CPI or underperform it given that CPI is an average. Kinda like how average life expectancy in the middle ages was 30 but many people lived to their 60s and some to their 90s. The infant mortality is what brought down the average life expectancy.


Oh? So the cost of education hasn't risen far faster than inflation? Then why are all the younglings screaming about it being so much more expensive these days? Or is it they just want a free ride?

Most of the issues with tuition have little to do with the professors themselves and more to do with the bean counters who have nothing to do with what goes on in college halls. Most of the expenses colleges have involve marketing and the sports departments, frankly there's a lot they could to do cut back and most of it has little to do with professors and students. These issues are mostly related to private universities in any event.


Have I blamed it all on teachers? As I pointed out to GF, in my view, the entire system is rotten to the core and needs to be rebuilt.

No, not really. That's not how it works at all.

If these loans and grants were not available, the majority of their customers simply could not afford to go to college. Are you telling me that these schools would go out of business, rather than cut the price?

That would be communism.

No, that would be market forces in action.

Hardly representative.

Like I said, hardly representative of anything.


It's quite representative in urban districts where the democrats have had a lock on running things for decades.

God forbid people get paid decent wages and students get proper resources for education.
That district already has teacher wages/benefits well above the national average. Back in the 80's, this district, at the behest of the teacher unions, gave out 40% raises, on the theory that in order to be successful, they had to offer premium salaries to attract the best teachers.

Considering the abysmal graduation rates and performance of this district, that's been proven to be BS. Yes a good deal of the problem is the raw materials they are asked to work with, but in many cases, those problems are also the result of far left ideas.

Climate change is the accepted science. Schools teach the accepted Science. Take up this issue with scientists, not schools who merely report the science. You don't see me complaining about evolution being taught in schools.


It is NOT universally accepted, as you claim. It is the left that accepts it so willingly. Again, we know the schools are biased.

Or your views are just out of touch with reality, but you being wrong is downright impossible. After all, you're omniscient because old.


Of course it is. It's about time you youngsters figured that out.

Because third hand knowledge is so accurate?...wait...does this mean the whistleblower doesn't need first hand knowledge?


Then you bring up this nonsense about your niece who was in an honors class of which she couldn't remember Pearl harbor despite the fact that my merit students (under honors level) seem to know about it before we even cover the war. The thing about honors programs is...most of them are a joke. So many parents shoehorn their kids in honors classes it's gotten to the point where they are dumbed down because administrators don't want to explain to parents that their kids aren't actually as smart as they think they are.

It wasn't "not remembered", it was "wasn't taught". Big difference.

Total BS. I spend two weeks on WWII and half that time I cover the atrocities of Japan from Nanjing to Pearl harbor to the forced marches in the philippines. Everyone in the department cover that. It's a tested item that they have to know in the AP exam for those taking AP classes.

Good for you. But that doesn't change the fact that revisionist history is being pushed.

You've never actually said what those posters say and how they look like, much less produce them.

The classroom that was used for the adult ed. course I took basically looked like a union hall, with pro-union, specifically govt. employee union posters adorning much of the space on the walls. And the entire school was decorated with leftist propaganda crap of all sorts.

[Gatefan1976]

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/im...ay-2019-11-13/

"Following the call with President Trump, the member of my staff asked Ambassador Sondland what President Trump thought about Ukraine. Ambassador Sondland responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which Giuliani was pressing for," he added.

boom.

[Gatefan1976]

The classroom that was used for the adult ed. course I took basically looked like a union hall, with pro-union, specifically govt. employee union posters adorning much of the space on the walls. And the entire school was decorated with leftist propaganda crap of all sorts.

One hall in a democratic state gives you any knowledge about what happens in the rest of the country?
ROFL.

[jelgate]

Confirmation bias?

[Gatefan1976]

Surely a person with so much experience as Annoyed would not fall for such a simplistic plan...…...

[Annoyed]

One hall in a democratic state gives you any knowledge about what happens in the rest of the country?
ROFL.

It was the motif of the entire building. And I do talk to people in the real world. Most of them with children tell similar stories.

[Annoyed]

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/im...ay-2019-11-13/


boom.

I guess it depends who you listen too.

House Republicans call impeachment hearing 'boring,' dismiss Taylor testimony as hearsay

I am done listening to anything the Democrats or their mouthpieces in the media say about the matter. This is a partisan he-said / she-said of epic proportions. And I don't believe the Democrats.

I'm going to let it play out. The Dems in the House will milk it for all it's worth, likely pissing a whole lot of folks off in the process, then the whole circus is dead the second it hits the Senate.

Trump wins next year, and likely gets two more SCOTUS picks. As well as time to complete what he started.