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    #91
    well that's us crazy Americans fer ya....we believe in this silly thing called personal choice and accountability....things like what food we buy, what health care we get, how we help the needy should remain a personal choice....I help the needy whenever I can not only because my faith directs me to but because I know it's the right thing to do and I do what I can to encourage others to do likewise but in the end it's their personal choice how to spend their money.....and I have a big problem with receiving help from people who were given no choice in the matter of helping me

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      #92
      Originally posted by s09119 View Post
      I disagree. If a taxpayer service is offered that you can, at any time of eligibility, join, you should have to pay taxes on it. I'm a college student, my tax dollars pay for a great many things that don't impact me at all right now, but I'm happy to pay for them all the same. There's someone out there that is getting a better quality of life because of that, and one day I may benefit the same on someone else's payment. I'm all for letting people go to private school, and perhaps a small tax break is in order for those, but not a skipping of school-related taxes entirely. Especially not when schools generally host events that the entire community, public- and private-school families included, take advantage of.
      Yeah, but the moment they stop going to private schools and use the public school system they start paying the same taxes as everyone else. I don't remember really since it's been a long time since I read about the school voucher system we have here in Sweden, but I think that people who use private schools still pay taxes for schools, only less than what those who use public schools do, though I'm not sure about the exact amount.
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        #93
        You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

        To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

        The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.

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          #94
          Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
          You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

          To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

          The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.
          The NHS also drives down the cost of private healthcare because they have to compete with it. So it's win-win, really.
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            #95
            Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
            You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

            To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

            The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.
            Originally posted by shipper hannah View Post
            The NHS also drives down the cost of private healthcare because they have to compete with it. So it's win-win, really.
            exactly, to both

            while I'd love to help people, I can't afford several thousand dollars to cover a surgery for someone. I can, however, afford (for me, it's about 170 a month) to pay for premiums that act as a pool where LOTS of people can be covered, including me. A good number of countries in the world do this - at far less cost that the US model for healthcare. And yes, it does drive down the cost of private insurance (under which I'm also covered).

            I'm sure there are Americans that don't mind what they have to pay, but I believe they should be given a choice. Right now, I believe the number is around 50 million without healthcare? That's appalling for a civilized, industrialized country.
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              #96
              Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
              exactly, to both

              while I'd love to help people, I can't afford several thousand dollars to cover a surgery for someone. I can, however, afford (for me, it's about 170 a month) to pay for premiums that act as a pool where LOTS of people can be covered, including me. A good number of countries in the world do this - at far less cost that the US model for healthcare. And yes, it does drive down the cost of private insurance (under which I'm also covered).

              I'm sure there are Americans that don't mind what they have to pay, but I believe they should be given a choice. Right now, I believe the number is around 50 million without healthcare? That's appalling for a civilized, industrialized country.
              I don't know now the healthcare bill has passed in America but I read somewhere Turkey and the US were the only two countries not to have some sort universal public healthcare.

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                #97
                Originally posted by EvilSpaceAlien View Post
                Yeah, there are no death panels at all in universal healthcare. That is a complete myth and fabrication that's used as a scare tactic by those who oppose it. And the fact is that you already have death panels run by private insurance companies that try their hardest to find every little loophole they can use to deny a potential life saving treatment for a patient.
                Over here the government doesn't even directly employ the doctors, they are still employed by the individual hospitals, the county just provides funding for the hospitals and they are not directly involved in the day to day running of the hospitals. The only thing the county directly controls is which doctor is employed as the head of all the public hospitals in the county, but even then it needs to achieve a majority in a vote in the county council with all political parties present before he/she can be employed/fired.

                I think school vouchers are a good thing because if a parent wants to enroll their child in a private school they shouldn't have to pay taxes for a public school system that they don't even use. It's important to give the parents the freedom to choose how and where they want to educate their child.
                Well it sure is interesting how much substance there is to this myths and fabrications.

                Yes but the fact of the matter is, well two fold. First of all the choice is in the hands of the people who are using that insurance and making that point. The company in question serves the people who are doing it and all the company can do is advise the people on what the best option is. Second of all when a company does do that kind of things its called murder, when a Government does those types of things it is called for the good of the society. This is especially potent since the Government has helped to create the health care system that the United States is in, which has raised prices, forced people to go to insurance companies, and taken choice out of our hands...and now they are riding to the rescue in fixing a problem they created in the first place, when it seems everyone and their brother knows this is a bad idea because of all the Companies that are getting exemptions.

                And no death panels in Universal Health care? You say. first of all it is so very interesting how you can project the Sweedish system, which to be honest does not soundthat bad...as far as freedom stripping and fiscally irresponsible big Government programs go...and project that health care system onto every single Government run health care system in the entire world. It is fascinating how you can do that. Secondly, the Sweedish health care system has private options and private companies where you can go to for insurance? Right. So by your logic and everything that you have admitted to be true in your 'Universal' Health Care system, since private companies have death panels...by your own admission, then the Sweedish Health Care system must have death panels too. Just using your logic here.

                Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                that's a kind way to put it but what amazes me is how many buy into it in spite of all the facts to the contrary
                And it amazes me how someone from Canda can use their own wonderful health care system for a template for another countries health care system when they do not know of all of the 'facts'

                Like the fact that a Democratic Congressman recently sent around an e-mail warning people not to talk about provisions in the Health Care bill because they could be death panels. Like Ezikiel Emanuel who is advocating a 'complete lives system' so that younger people who are healthy get more medicine and more medical attention then someone who is old, and infirm, or just plain sick. Or like the fact that Cass Sunstein has often talked about nudging, manipulating people and using the power of the Government to manipulate people into making descisions that are against their best interests, and for some kind of weird Government agenda. Or how about the fact that the recession is now causing medicines, medical supplies, and vaccines to be in ever shortening supply?

                Yes, pardon me but I tend to get a bit..nervous...when the Government starts talking about manipulating people. I tend to get a bit...concerned...when people in and around the Government starts putting a value on one group of lives over another, all for the good of he society and social progress. And I get a bit antsy going into a system that is corrupt, dishonest, and unclear, when we now may be facing a shortage of medical supplies. Which will lead to rationing.

                Originally posted by s09119 View Post
                I disagree. If a taxpayer service is offered that you can, at any time of eligibility, join, you should have to pay taxes on it. I'm a college student, my tax dollars pay for a great many things that don't impact me at all right now, but I'm happy to pay for them all the same. There's someone out there that is getting a better quality of life because of that, and one day I may benefit the same on someone else's payment. I'm all for letting people go to private school, and perhaps a small tax break is in order for those, but not a skipping of school-related taxes entirely. Especially not when schools generally host events that the entire community, public- and private-school families included, take advantage of.
                interesting....
                Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
                You can have all the chioce in world but what if they can't afford private health care shouldn't there be a public option as well?

                To me people with bad health are not the 'needy' IMO they should be treated for free and maybe now that healthy they may get a job and repay through the tax system.

                The money my mum pays in National Insurance Tax goes towards helping people and in this day and age its extremely unlikely she will not require the NHS at some point in her life. So it benefits both society as a whole and Individual. When I get a job I'll happily pay my National Insurance.
                no
                Originally posted by xxxevilgrinxxx View Post
                exactly, to both

                while I'd love to help people, I can't afford several thousand dollars to cover a surgery for someone. I can, however, afford (for me, it's about 170 a month) to pay for premiums that act as a pool where LOTS of people can be covered, including me. A good number of countries in the world do this - at far less cost that the US model for healthcare. And yes, it does drive down the cost of private insurance (under which I'm also covered).

                I'm sure there are Americans that don't mind what they have to pay, but I believe they should be given a choice. Right now, I believe the number is around 50 million without healthcare? That's appalling for a civilized, industrialized country.
                thats what charities are for.

                Many Americans feel they do not need, or want health care insurance. they would rather have their playstations, their xboxes, their cars, and their big screen tvs then have health care. Or feel that they just do not need it since they are healthy. Again that should be their choice.
                Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
                I don't know now the healthcare bill has passed in America but I read somewhere Turkey and the US were the only two countries not to have some sort universal public healthcare.
                Damn Turkey is the last bastion of freedom in the world. Well as far as Heatlh Care is concerned...

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by shipper hannah View Post
                  The NHS also drives down the cost of private healthcare because they have to compete with it. So it's win-win, really.
                  not when one of the entities that's competing is also writing the rules

                  Comment


                    #99
                    humor break:



                    now back to the regularly scheduled political debates

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by mad_gater View Post
                      not when one of the entities that's competing is also writing the rules
                      That's just not true when you look at countries where it happens. You don't see the government running private interests out of business.
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                        Originally posted by s09119 View Post
                        That's just not true when you look at countries where it happens. You don't see the government running private interests out of business.
                        ......not yet anyway......but it's headed there.....because more and more people are just gonna go to the NHS because they're paying taxes for it and daggum it all they want their fair share....and since they have no choice but to pay taxes they're gonna stop paying for private health care because it would be redundant

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                          since it's plainly obvious that we'll just have to disagree with liberlism vs. conservatism........I consider that line of discussion closed

                          now let's celebrate a great man who rose up and fought for freedom for black people...MLK, Jr.:

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                            Originally posted by mad_gater View Post
                            ......not yet anyway......but it's headed there.....because more and more people are just gonna go to the NHS because they're paying taxes for it and daggum it all they want their fair share....and since they have no choice but to pay taxes they're gonna stop paying for private health care because it would be redundant
                            In every system you may be turned down but with an insurance system you could be turned just because you don't have enough money. Whereas with our system your more likly to get funding but just not up to it medically. To me if you don't want some form of healthcare your an idiot cause you never what's round the corner. I like our system like most people in my country but you don't have copy it if you don't want your choice.

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                              Originally posted by mad_gater View Post
                              ......not yet anyway......but it's headed there.....because more and more people are just gonna go to the NHS because they're paying taxes for it and daggum it all they want their fair share....and since they have no choice but to pay taxes they're gonna stop paying for private health care because it would be redundant
                              Really? I PAY for private health care (insurance), in ADDITION to what I pay in premiums for nationalized health care. I think you may also be laboring under the false assumption that people who are covered under national health care are not paying for it. The idea behind national health care is that EVERYONE is covered. Before I could afford extra - private - coverage, I was covered. Now, when I can afford extra - private - coverage, it doesn't mean I don't have both. I really have to ask - where are you getting your information? I've heard stuff like this but it tends to not be terribly informed - care to share?
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                                Originally posted by Col.Foley View Post
                                But my basic neccessities are different then yours. Either my needs are different then yours and my wants are also different then yours.
                                Your basic necessities are not different than mine unless you are from another species. That's why they're called basic necessities- they're the stuff that everybody needs. Life, food, shelter, health, education, freedom.

                                And I am an indvidual and one size fits all grand Government solution is not going to work with me and is not going to be parceled out. Sure I might make mistakes, but at least they will be mine to make.
                                Some one-size fits all solutions actually do fit all.

                                And no one system is ever perfect. And this includes the 'hybrid' between Socialism and capitalism as you are purporting it.
                                ...Which is why the key to finding the right balance is willingness to change, adapt and modify the system to cope with new challenges, instead of defending a once-established rigid framework.

                                And many of the things that you mention are not socialism at all, and are pursuant to Government's overall objective of protecting your life, your liberty, your property, and your pursuit of happiness.
                                You're playing with definitions. Phrased more accurately, you're actually saying that in order to fulfill its commitment to protecting your life, liberty, property and freedom, the government should be willing to embrace some elements of socialism
                                If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions.- Abba Eban.

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