Why did SGA create the Wraith

[Platschu]

We talked about the Pegasus anchestor thread about this. If every human had Ancients origin in the Pegasus galaxy as the second form the "normal" humans were never carried there, then technically everyone must have the ATA-gene. It also means if the Wraith has purely evolved from the Iratus bug then they won't have the ATA-genes, but I am guessing the Iratus evolution was accelerated when they managed to feed on an Ancient body. That would explain why they can drain or give back life force.

https://forum.gateworld.net/threads/...raith-Heritage

[Davey]

And what is the effect of giving back life force on a Wraith? Is it like fasting? It is akin to altruism beyond question. Is it theoretically possible that a Wraith could give back so much that the human reverts younger? And why is it that a Wraith cannot feed on a fellow wraith?

[Xaeden]

If every human had Ancients origin in the Pegasus galaxy as the second form the "normal" humans were never carried there, then technically everyone must have the ATA-gene.

Could you expand on this? Every second evolution human was created by the Ancients to not have the ATA gene by design. Those who do have it are the product of Ancients later having children with humans. I have no clue why you think everyone should have the gene.

[Platschu]

Pegasus was separated from the Milky Way. Only the Ancients lived there as far as I know as the Goa'uld or the Asgard has never brought humans there. So maybe it was not clearly communicated, but I believe all "human looking" civilzations were descendants of Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy. Maybe there were some genetic degradation, but their ancesteros must have been Ancients.

If you read the other thread, I wrote down a few genetic steps (and a little genetic related mini fan fiction how the Goa'uld turned evil or what is the case with the Harsiesis), but I will try to repeat in a shorter version. There is no such things in genetic as "random" skill. Something is inherited or not. It can be expressed by dominant allels or maybe supressed as the body carried the recessive allel. So if everyone was Ancient, then all of them must have had the ATA gene. Because why would they setup such genetic marker that Ancient No 1 can use it, but not Ancient persone No 2? So whoever was fighting against the Wraith or later ascended or returned to Earth, they all must have carried this gene. Since there was no humans, no second form in the Pegasus galaxy, the "original" Ancients must have degredated genetically. Imagine it like a genetic skill which is weakened and weakened or maybe there was a mutation there etc. That is the reason I believe that most of the Pegagus "humans" should have the ATA-genes.

My theory was that the Wraith was evolved with the Iratus bug-Ancient combo. Maybe the hologram spoke about the insects, that they looked like a local animals in the Pegasus galaxy, but then somehow they managed to "capture" and to feed on Ancients. That could be a cool story why every Wraith Queen was played by the same actress.

But it also means that the Wraith should be probably also ATA-gene carriers, but we don't know how the evolution happened. If the Iratus gained Ancient genetic materials etc.

Back to the MW humans. It sounds a nonsense that the ATA-genes shows up randomly in the MW galaxy. I mean maybe some people still carried them, like 0,001% of the population. But it also means that if these carrier people could have children together then the chances would be much higher to have a child with ATA-genes.

Then we return to the original problem. The Ancients settled down to create colonies in the Pegasus galaxy. And they were creating couples / families within each other, then all the future generations should carry this genetic material.

By the way it can be still explained with a believeable scifi solution. Maybe the genes are activated only in specific environment or planet. Maybe the genes were removed by force by the Wraith or the Vanir, so they wanted to weaken them to not use Ancient technology against them etc.

[NickEast]

I think the Ancients seeded Pegasus with human life, much like what they did in the Milky Way after they left, instead of colonizing the entire galaxy themselves. And these settlements were eventually cut off during the war "until only Atlantis remained". I don't exactly know how much evidence there is to corroborate this, but I have a feeling it was mentioned or implied.

In any case, I don't think everyone in Pegasus has the ATA gene. Even if all humans were direct descendants of the Ancients, it's also possible that the ATA gene degraded due to the Wraith cullings somehow, though I'm just winging it now. It was never really any concern in the show, considering enough of the expedition had the gene, either naturally or through gene therapy.

I could believe that the Wraith did partially inherited traits from the Ancients, considering they understood their technology very well and adapted it for their own, and that they were using a language derived from Ancient. Maybe some Wraith abilities were inherited or adapted from the Ancients? Perhaps the whole feeding/healing ability was either adapted or partially inherited from the Ancients' healing abilities? Perhaps their ability to project illusions would be similarly based on certain Ancient abilities or traits? Again, I'm just winging it, but it's interesting...

[Xaeden]

Pegasus was separated from the Milky Way. Only the Ancients lived there as far as I know as the Goa'uld or the Asgard has never brought humans there. So maybe it was not clearly communicated, but I believe all "human looking" civilzations were descendants of Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy. Maybe there were some genetic degradation, but their ancesteros must have been Ancients.

Why must they have been Ancients? It was never established how exactly the Ancients seeded human life in the Pegasus galaxy, so we don't know whether they test-tubed them into existence, instigated their evolution there as they did on Earth, or took them from Earth. I see no reason, however, to think that one of those things did not happen and instead the humans in the Pegasus galaxy are product of some Ancients "de-evolving," which seems rather far-fetched.

Also, if the majority of the humans in the galaxy don't have the ATA gene anymore because the Wraith removed it from them (the Asgard, who have been operating in secret since day 1, wouldn't have had the resources to do that on a galaxy-wide level) why don't they use the same means to strip it from those who do have it? If what you think they have is a retrovirus that can target large population centers and spread from person-to-person, you'd think they would try to weaponize it against the Atlantis expedition. If it's something that prevents people from spreading the gene to their children then you'd similarly think they would use it on protected populations like the ones living in Atlantis' sister-ship from "The Tower." The Wraith may not believe it's worth it to try to take the planet by force, but they could get around its drones rather easily by crash landing a dispersal method or sending infected humans through the Stargate to spread it (depending on how it works), and then waiting a generation before moving in.

[NickEast]

Why must they have been Ancients? It was never established how exactly the Ancients seeded human life in the Pegasus galaxy, so we don't know whether they test-tubed them into existence, instigated their evolution there as they did on Earth, or took them from Earth. I see no reason, however, to think that one of those things did not happen and instead the humans in the Pegasus galaxy are product of some Ancients "de-evolving," which seems rather far-fetched.

The Ancients definitely did not take humans from Earth, since there were no humans on Earth since they left. And the second evolution of humans on Earth took several million years before they were human. Since they built the Dakara superweapon, the Ancients definitely had the knowledge and technology to develop organic (human) life even before they left, so seeding is much more likely and much more plausible.

I firmly believe, though it's never actually proven outright, that all humans in the Pegasus galaxy right now are the descendants of humans seeded throughout the galaxy by the Ancients, and of the Ancients themselves who could have lived among them. When the Ancients left the galaxy, Atlantis was all that remained, so it's clear that all other Ancients who lived in the galaxy have either died, retreated to the city, left the galaxy of their own accord, or went into hiding. But since the population of Pegasus is more expansive than on Earth, the interbreeding between Ancients and humans would probably have reduced the effectiveness of the ATA gene much more until it was even rarer than on Earth; this would explain "The Tower".

Also, since the Ancients left Pegasus, the Wraith have been using humans as cattle so they have some kind of population control, which could have affected the interbreeding with the ATA gene as well; perhaps at first the Wraith selectively bred humans to deliberately erase the ATA gene to prevent any humans from ever learning about their ancestry and being able to use Ancient technology and the stargates against them. Simply by feeding on those with the ATA gene in their ancestry first would do that.

[Chaka-Z0]

Hopefully I'm not making this up, but I thought at some point in SGA it was said that the Ancients were divided in regards to the approach to Ascension. Some followed the ''science'' path, and some followed the ''religious'' path and a few colonies stayed behind to find their own path to ascension.

The episode (can't remember the name) where an Ancient poses as a God on that planet with the big electric weapon would be one of those Religious Ancient I guess.

[AleksisMi]

that does sound familiar, but basically we do not know if by seeding life they simply sent genetic samples to worlds that would naturally evolve over millions of year... but the general theory is they grew humans and released them and talked with htem and raised them as adopted children to a degree or as pets even, they made a second class of humans that they released on worlds, to see where evolution would take them or for some other more altruistic reason for allowing life to exist, however, they created second class humans, they arent ancients, they are less then ancients, that is why we do not know why, perhaps the ancients are not naturally evolved and are actually somewhat embarrased to be heavily genetically modified by science so they recreate their past selves to let evolution play out the way it should have naturally

[NickEast]

Hopefully I'm not making this up, but I thought at some point in SGA it was said that the Ancients were divided in regards to the approach to Ascension. Some followed the ''science'' path, and some followed the ''religious'' path and a few colonies stayed behind to find their own path to ascension.

The episode (can't remember the name) where an Ancient poses as a God on that planet with the big electric weapon would be one of those Religious Ancient I guess.

I think you're confusing this with the Alterans and Ori. There was no conflict in Pegasus between the Ancients.

I think the episode you refer to is "Sanctuary" where an ascended Ancient was banished when she protected a planet against the Wraith and was forced to maintain that planet's protection without ever being able to help anyone else. When Shepard's team arrives over the planet, their Jumper was attacked by Wraith darts. The darts were destroyed by a "weapon", in reality the Ancient. The planet could not accept the Expedition as refugees, because she was not allowed to help anyone but those who come from the planet.

[Davey]

Strange though that the Wraith, who have had the experience of eating food until their teenage years don't long for the variety of foods available and therefore don't have scientists working 24/7 to find an alternative to feeding on the life force of a single being - the human. Either they should have looked for alternative beings or a way to restore normal eating.

After all, any entity that can engage in interplanetary travel surely should be able to come up with a way that improves themselves either medically or in this case nutritionally. Plus when they feed they emit the grunting of regular animals. After seeing humans for so long, one would think that Wraith would by this time seek alternatives for his species.

[Chaka-Z0]

I think you're confusing this with the Alterans and Ori. There was no conflict in Pegasus between the Ancients.

I think the episode you refer to is "Sanctuary" ...

Seems like you're right, thx.

[Xaeden]

The Ancients definitely did not take humans from Earth, since there were no humans on Earth since they left. And the second evolution of humans on Earth took several million years before they were human. Since they built the Dakara superweapon, the Ancients definitely had the knowledge and technology to develop organic (human) life even before they left, so seeding is much more likely and much more plausible.

The scenario in which they would've taken them from Earth would have involved them going there within the last few hundred thousand years, not taking them along when they left 5-10 million years ago. I doubt that this happened because we know that the Ancients initially thought that they would find the remains of their old civilization when fleeing to the Milky Way 10,000 years ago and upon learning that they would have to practically rebuild from scratch they gave up on that ambition. This would suggest that the Milky Way was considered off limits prior to the end of the Wraith war when they were desperate enough to risk going back. This would make sense as they had a valid reason to be concerned that the plague might have survived in some form (it did; in Ayiana).

That said, it's possible. We don't know when humans first appeared in the Pegasus galaxy, there probably would've been a lot more remaining Ancient technology in the Milky Way a few hundred of thousand years ago as it would predate the Goa'uld's scavenging efforts, and it could be that in this scenario the Ancients simply went straight to Earth without doing an analysis of what remained elsewhere in the galaxy. I'm not sure why they would risk even that level of contact when they're the Ancients and should have the means to recreate their form, but I'm willing to set my doubts aside and include it on a list of possibilities.

But since the population of Pegasus is more expansive than on Earth, the interbreeding between Ancients and humans would probably have reduced the effectiveness of the ATA gene much more until it was even rarer than on Earth; this would explain "The Tower".

It's also worth noting that there very well could be at least two points in which the ATA gene entered Earth's population. The one we definitively know about was 10,000 years ago, but there was also a season 9 or 10 episode of Sg-1 where there was some vague talk about Merlin possibly having a role in helping women to get pregnant. This may very well have been intended to set up a later reveal that Merlin was introducing the ATA gene into the human population ~1,500 years ago. This is, of course, speculative, but it was a weird thing to bring up, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was hinting at something they wanted to address later. It would also explain why people named Sheppard and O'neill have such a pronounced Chair Interface Aptitude. And why Beckett is second to Sheppard among those in Atlantis.

Also, the two Pegasus populations with the ATA gene that we know about seemed pretty isolated. It's unlikely that the people living around an Ancient city ship, for example, would leave the safety of its drones (unless exiled by the royalty) and it doesn't appear that they were taking in refugees (mention was made of only a small number of villages in the area), so it doesn't look like there was that much exchange between them and humans elsewhere in the galaxy. Rather, it looks like they were quite in-bred. Their ATA gene problems may have had more to do with it being the product of a smaller number of Ancients in the bloodline, maybe even just a single one who got left behind. In contrast, millions of Ancients flooded back to Earth 10,000 years ago and who knows how many of them reproduced with humans, but it's likely a decently high number.

Also, since the Ancients left Pegasus, the Wraith have been using humans as cattle so they have some kind of population control, which could have affected the interbreeding with the ATA gene as well; perhaps at first the Wraith selectively bred humans to deliberately erase the ATA gene to prevent any humans from ever learning about their ancestry and being able to use Ancient technology and the stargates against them. Simply by feeding on those with the ATA gene in their ancestry first would do that.

Possibly, but that's a lot of effort. The only Wraith ATA gene detection method that we know about is a small orb that activates on contact. Using a skin contact method to test people before feeding on them is tedious and dangerous work. The Wraith prefer shock and awe tactics, which involve picking off stranglers with darts or by shooting whoever they can with stunners and then quickly retreating through the Stargate.

Hopefully I'm not making this up, but I thought at some point in SGA it was said that the Ancients were divided in regards to the approach to Ascension. Some followed the ''science'' path, and some followed the ''religious'' path and a few colonies stayed behind to find their own path to ascension.

The closest thing to this came out of "The Pegasus Project" (season 10, episode 3 of Sg-1) when it was revealed that the Ancients returning to Earth took divergent paths. There wasn't a divide between science and religion, but some chose to live out their lives among humans and help plant the seeds of civilization while others (like Merlin and Morgan le Fey) chose to spend their lives trying to figure out how to ascend. A third group was said to have disappeared through the Stargate. Aside from Janus and his second time traveling jumper, we don't know what became of them, but they may have been the ones who formed the alliance of four.

[Davey]

Gosh, every time those Wraith growl and bare their teeth I think of how they need to brush and whiten their teeth despite not eating food or smoking cigarettes and cigars....

[Gatefan1976]

What quote provided in this thread even suggests this? The one I pointed to explains that an iratus bug needs to gorge itself on a single human and then lay eggs shortly after, which will transfer some of the human DNA it absorbed to its offspring's genetic structure. The offspring would naturally then have to find another human to feed on, repeat the process, and, in doing so, pass on a little more DNA to its own offspring. Each generation would therefore have a little more human DNA in its genetic structure than its parent, allowing the bugs to eventually produce a humanoid hybrid after many generations.

Because Michael ENGINEERED that system, nature did not.

To summarize, what this means is that each generation needs to feed on only a single human right before it lays its eggs. Primitive humans seeded on these bugs' native planet would have been ill-equipped to completely prevent iratus bug attacks (we can't even completely protect people from being fed on by vampire bats today).

What happens when a population cannot defend itself?
It dies.
How does a bug get more human DNA if they have killed all the humans?

Mckay is ego driven. He exaggerates his own capabilities (unless under pressure). He doesn't make every number about every subject bigger out of some no-purpose love of big numbers.

I did not say "big number", I said overblow. If he can do it, he says a second, if he can't, he says it's impossible.