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Would a single ZPM be able to dial Destiny?

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    #16
    Originally posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    The Odyssesy using its ZPM was able to power the Supergate and go to the Ori galaxy, however it depends how power consumtion increases with distance as opposed to the size of the wormhole...I would think dialing a Supergate to a very distant galaxy would be just as taxing as dialling the Destiny but it would appear a ZPM is not enough....
    Wasn't the supergate powered by a mini black hole?

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      #17
      Originally posted by tinerin View Post
      Wasn't the supergate powered by a mini black hole?
      If I remember correctly, it was.
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        #18
        no way one zpm could power up the gate for that. your forgetting, it took a heavily ionised planets' core to produce the amount of energy to power the gate, and even then the planet essentially ceased to exist because of the power consumption. besides the only 2 people who kno the adress are rush and eli, and rush is, for all intense and purposes, out of the picture for now. so i cant see anyone dialing destiny what so ever. what i want to kno is, why the goauld where attacking them to begin with, i sense a plot line there somewhere. hmm

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          #19
          you realise what happened when we found Atlantis. advanced tech, ZPM's, ridiculously powerful city. obviously the LA wants some of that stuff too

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            #20
            On the black hole powering the supergate.

            You guys realize that a ZPM(solar system busting one) has the equivalent of dozen or so Earth mass planets stored into them. A single planet mass singularity is not much compared to that.

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              #21
              Keep in mind that it's not just a question of total energy, but also power output. ZPM might have enough energy to establish a wormhole, but it is entirely possible that it can't output that power fast enough without blowing up, which we know is kind of bad.
              MWG Gate Network Simulation

              Looks familiar?

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                #22
                Originally posted by K^2 View Post
                Keep in mind that it's not just a question of total energy, but also power output. ZPM might have enough energy to establish a wormhole, but it is entirely possible that it can't output that power fast enough without blowing up, which we know is kind of bad.
                Understatement of the year.
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                  #23
                  Originally posted by legacy_of_hammond View Post
                  no way one zpm could power up the gate for that. your forgetting, it took a heavily ionised planets' core to produce the amount of energy to power the gate, and even then the planet essentially ceased to exist because of the power consumption. besides the only 2 people who kno the adress are rush and eli, and rush is, for all intense and purposes, out of the picture for now. so i cant see anyone dialing destiny what so ever. what i want to know is, why the goauld where attacking them to begin with, i sense a plot line there somewhere. hmm
                  We didn't need all the power the core could fasten for us. What i was stating is maybe the power requiriments are not that high. Of course we had to use the planet because it provided us with an Alternative to the very rare ZPM and with unlimited energy output, and i risk, probably way more that a ZPM could harness.
                  It was not specified that the only ones that know the address where Eli and Rush. Tech Sargent Riley was in charge of gate duty and dialing procedures, he would also know it. Besides all the IOA would know it since they are in charge oversighting with is an open door for the LA spy to infiltrate and extract any data concerning our more secret facilityes and projects.

                  Originally posted by thekillman
                  you realise what happened when we found Atlantis. advanced tech, ZPM's, ridiculously powerful city. obviously the LA wants some of that stuff too
                  Thats why they where after the planet. They did not intended to destroy it, but to capture it.
                  Last edited by Steelbox; 10 February 2010, 03:08 AM.
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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Steelbox View Post
                    While watching Air i had the distinct impression that the critical/explosion status of the core was caused by shots of the Hataks on orbit, combined with the dialing procedures.
                    Apparently that is the plot, although we didn't see a single orbital bolt landing anywhere close to the base. I have to question what the Ha'taks were shooting at, and if the power core was that close to the base in fact.

                    Originally posted by Steelbox View Post
                    I agree that the core going critical would release more energy. But would it be necessary to go critical? No. There where two trips programed, one to ascertain viability and gather data and another one to send a team. The Eli power rate x power extraction algoritm/equation was used so an exact quantity of energy was extracted without the core exploding.
                    Now do we know how many energy is needed to be extracted from naquadria to explode/ go critical? How many was necessary to dial Destiny. For all we know it is possible that 1 or a couple ZPM would do the job however taxing for them.
                    As others have said, if it was possible, they'd have done it a long time ago. Unless, of course, what prevents them from doing so is not the power, but the gate. If my memory is correct, only the stargate in Atlantis could dial directly to Earth. Other stargates not, and even the Pegasus one used for the bridge may have been modified.
                    I'd rather go with that second explanation.

                    Originally posted by Michael Jansky View Post
                    Bottom line is, we don't know the yield of Naquadah at all (besides the vague line from the original film where Ra says that just the small amount of Naquadah he added to the bomb, which looked to be about a kilo to me, would increase the yield a hundred times),...
                    On the contrary, we have lots of evidence to know the energy density of naqahdah. Check the second link in my sig.

                    ... and the only way we can try to calculate the power of a ZPM is that old ZP-energy-from-a-teacup-of-space-would-boil-all-oceans-on-Earth analogy, stated by either Feynman or Planck, I don't remember which.
                    The zero point energy density of one cubic centimeter of vacuum is just silly. Something like e92 J I think. That's one of the theories, but anyway, by plot, that would allow any writer to say that a very good ZPE system could tap a virtually undepletable source.

                    The power of a ZPM is impressive, but another question is, can it be released over a short enough period to power the connection?
                    The fastest drain we've seen was a controlled one, via the power grid of Atlantis, at a rate of 2%/s. That makes the minimum absolute drain clocked at fifty seconds.

                    We know a ZPM can be overloaded, so likely there is a limit on the rate energy is drawn from it.
                    I think the overload has much more to do with the ZPM having at least one internal buffer, and somehow this buffer being supercharged with energy. That, or some kind of internal spacetime fracture that would release exotic particles.
                    We know that different overload thresholds can be defined. McKay was able to have the Asuran cityship's ZPMs to overload, yet it only vaporized the ship, and nothing else.
                    That's a drop in an ocean, compared to what they could do, or even the calculated power figures.

                    We only know that the ZPM has a final capacity, as it works much the same way as a battery (non-rechargeable). But you also can't extract all the energy stored in a 1,5V-battery at once, it will only give you those 1,5 Volts, and if you want too great a current from it, it'll likely just pop and spill out, or short-circuit. Happens often enough.

                    So, really, I cannot say if a single ZPM can be used to dial Destiny. I'm of the opinion it cannot under normal circumstances. If, however, one built a capacitor that can deplete a ZPM on charging itself and then release all the energy at once, it could be possible. Problem is, even if the Ancients knew how to build such a thing, we most likely do not.
                    The real question is how much the Icarus core was outputting.

                    See that following Light, the IOA and SGC thought that by diving the ship into a main sequence star, they could channel enough energy directly into the stargate, in episode Earth.
                    First of all, we know that Destiny has a scooping system that allows it to drain a vast amount of energy, much more than whatever it can take from the volumes of ionized gas the scooping nodes can ram into (Light).
                    It literally has to extend nets in order to suck up net energy. Remember that the ship has to control its course into a star and out of its gravitational field, and has to have her shields withstand all the radiations and solar bursts while doing so.
                    Besides, considering that by picking power from the star, they didn't extinguish any reaction in the star, it's absolutely clear that they ship only picks a very low fraction of the power a star generates.
                    http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis...um=901&pos=883
                    The star in question could be considered like ours, for sake of simplicity.
                    Luminosity is 3.846 e26 W, so we already know that the power they planned to channel through the ship's power grid would be inferior to that by a faaaar margin.
                    Then the intensity in the photosphere is 2.009 e7 W/m², so obviously even if you worked out the eV per atom in a cubic meter in that region, the power levels wouldn't be... stellar. Than, again, pointing out the need to use an advanced syphon system.
                    Problem is, by the visuals (which are going to be limited to artistic liberty and lack of scientific knowledge), we didn't exactly see intense streams of matter being forced into the scooping nodes, which abysmally black and cold matter being expelled.
                    Why the ship needs to get into the star to do that, however, is most curious, and may suggest that contact with the denseer plasma of the photosphere is necessary, and contact with the lightweight plasma densities of the corona wouldn't be enough to do whatever the system needs to do.

                    Anyway, on topic, the point is that the power level they though would be sufficient to dial back Earth was far below the max output of a ZPM.

                    Notice, however, that the plan failed, and it may have been a completely desperate attempt to see if it would work, perhaps counting on some Destiny to unlock something special.
                    Also consider that they may have not known what kind of star they'd be directed into. Although a red giant would have seriously made the plan completely pointless, if they had flew into a blue giant, the story would have been different: Although the plan would have been thousand times more dangerous, I don't think that coming close to such a star would have been a problem. After all, we know that a Ha'tak can sit close to a blue giant for ten hours without breaking a sweat.
                    The problem would have been once inside. A blue giant has a power that can easily be several tens of thousand times superior to that of Sol. The danger would have been, then, with the Destiny maximum on flux. Could the power grid channel such energies? Could it even do that while having the shields holding on? Would the scooping nodes even survive such temperatures?
                    Surely, if the eggheads on Earth counted on something between our star and blue giant, it would raise the likely "fraction of a star's power" figure they hoped to harvest during one of those stellar baths.

                    Finally, we can already rule out certain low-ball power figures. Gigawatts are easily obtained even with crude naqahdah reactors. The portable Mark-Is can provide multiple dozens of gigawatts or more, with a potential of several dozens terajoules.
                    We can also rule out terawatts because of the energy densities of larger amounts of naqahdah.
                    The resistance of a Ha'tak's shields against a blue giant points to a power flux of several terawatts, with obviously a large reserve of energy.
                    On a higher note, depending if you give stock into the maxium 200 megatons yield of a single bolt from SG-1 season 1, then a Ha'tak can channel that much energy, and therefore there's little reasons why the Tau'ri around season 10 and beyond couldn't achieve something similar.

                    Therefore it would appear to be a safe bet to safely start playing with high petawatt power figures.

                    Besides, I don't believe that's a problem of power, but more a question of a special stargate.

                    After all, black holes can power stargates... although the process of how a stargate can even harness enough energy out of a black hole it orbits is a mystery, and probably another occasion to argue the existence of a (subspace) net that collects energy "invisibly", since gates orbiting black holes could only receive a silly low fraction of the energy a black hole outputs. Besides, a large black hole wouldn't make such a good power source. You'd rather have a short lived and small black hole.

                    The Ori compressing a planet beyond what can be done to create a black hole "naturally" would probably mean that because of the non-natural method they used in Beachhead and later on, the black hole they created from the planet's mass and more would be very short lived, and therefore powerful.
                    It still doesn't exempt the stargate from needing a system to collect large amounts of energy, and that's why we can only speculate on ethereal umbilicals or net that tap the black hole in a way or another, possibly as an extension of the ethereal power feed system that's used between a stargate and a DHD.

                    Then again, the black hole allowing a connection between two galaxies, either close or distant, would prove that power is not the problem.

                    In theory, a ZPM, and even a lesser power source, should allow the connection.


                    Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                    MT's per gramme for Naquahdah. a solid naquahdah core would yield about 10^38 joules of energy. naquahdriah is several orders of magnitude more powerful.
                    the core might not be entirely solid, but even at 1% naquahdah it still is an impressive 10^36 joules. ZPM's are somewhere in the 10^35 area.
                    i think that there are two possibilities:

                    1: yes, a ZPM can dial destiny. it depletes really fast though, and is nearly depleted within a minute.

                    2: NO, at least two are needed, if not a whole battery of ZPM's.
                    Or

                    3: nothing to do with power.


                    Notice that the asteroid would release the energy of a small nova that would have boiled off Earth's oceans, the energy is indeed closer to e33~35 J, the distance between the explosion and Earth, and the omnidirectional nature of the blast completing the picture since the planet would receive only a fraction of that energy, a fraction that would not be so high as to literally crack open the exposed side.


                    The Core of Icarus was made of Naquadriah, an asteroid 140km wide with a core of Naquadah would become a mini nova when detonated so a planet core made of something even more explosive would be super nova level at least.
                    How do we know that? Was is revealed? I have only seen the first part of SGU's 1st season. Limit spoilers please.
                    Planets don't naturally contain enough energy to blow up. However a large amount of naqahda or naqahdria, that would have magically managed not to explode while located under the crust (!) would explain the destruction of the planet in Air.

                    PS: that new BB interface is truly DISASTROUS. >:[
                    The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      Apparently that is the plot, although we didn't see a single orbital bolt landing anywhere close to the base. I have to question what the Ha'taks were shooting at, and if the power core was that close to the base in fact.
                      The power core is the entire planet...it doesn't matter if it was near the base or not...

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      As others have said, if it was possible, they'd have done it a long time ago.
                      You spend two years searching the galaxy for the planet then you want to risk blowing it up for a shot at dialing the 9-chevron address? The original plan was to dial twice so they couldn't have risked it...i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Air the whole point of disabling incoming wormholes was to reduce the risk of blowing up the planet...

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      If my memory is correct, only the stargate in Atlantis could dial directly to Earth. Other stargates not, and even the Pegasus one used for the bridge may have been modified.
                      This is because of the control crystal in Atlantis' DHD; Atlantis has even had two stargates since the Attero device blew the original one up...any Pegasus stargate hooked up to that crystal could dial Earth with enough power; it was the whole basis for McKay's plan to dial Earth from the fog planet in season 1 of Atlantis...

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      Notice, however, that the plan failed, and it may have been a completely desperate attempt to see if it would work, perhaps counting on some Destiny to unlock something special.
                      The plan failed because Destiny was damaged so it couldn't properly channel all that energy into the stargate...my understanding of the episode was that the ship is capable of powering the stargate to dial the 9-chevron address while it is in a star but that because of all the damage to the ship, attempting to channel that much power into the stargate would blow up the ship...didn't we even see a power conduit explode while Rush was doing tests to see whether the ship could handle that much power?

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      Besides, I don't believe that's a problem of power, but more a question of a special stargate.
                      Actually, Mallozzi confirmed that dialing the 9-chevron is a power issue and not anything special with any specific stargate...power is also the reason that Destiny stargate have such a limited range...

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      The Ori compressing a planet beyond what can be done to create a black hole "naturally" would probably mean that because of the non-natural method they used in Beachhead and later on, the black hole they created from the planet's mass and more would be very short lived, and therefore powerful.
                      i don't understand what you mean by "short lived" since black holes don't die unless they're consumed by a larger black hole...

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      3: nothing to do with power.
                      As far as the people writing the show are concerned, it has everything to do with power...

                      Originally posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
                      How do we know that? Was is revealed? I have only seen the first part of SGU's 1st season. Limit spoilers please.
                      Planets don't naturally contain enough energy to blow up. However a large amount of naqahda or naqahdria, that would have magically managed not to explode while located under the crust (!) would explain the destruction of the planet in Air.
                      Yes it was revealed...I could have sworn it was mentioned in Air (and/or the episode where Rush lies about finding another Icarus planet on Destiny's path)...but if not, I think it was in the Danial Jackson tutorial on the stargates...

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                        #26
                        I see that several things were mentioned in this thread: a ZPM cam blow up a solar system, a naquadah asteroid (like the one in Fail Safe) goes nova. And a ZPM can't power a connection to the Destiny but the Icarus base could. Since the Icarus planet's core was made of naquadah/naquadria it means that either: a) the explosion was not portrayed correctly - it should have been much more massive or b) only a small part of the fissionable material went critical. a) seems most likely because of fx budget constrains and since the gate could harness all of the planet's power it wouldn't make sense that the reaction would stall so quickly.

                        So - naquadah asteroid < (but close to) a ZPM < naquadah planet

                        Did I get this right ?

                        @blowing up the Asurans' city: I distinctly remember that the city was blown up because of the influx of power, not because the ZPMs themselves blew up.
                        Last edited by Mike.; 11 February 2010, 11:28 PM.
                        Carter: "The singularity is about to explode!"

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                          #27
                          naquahdriah planet.

                          and the core of the planet is much bigger than a stupid asteroid

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                            #28
                            Yeah. So the planet explosion in Air II wasn't accurate. That's what's causing the confusion.
                            Carter: "The singularity is about to explode!"

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by tinerin View Post
                              The power core is the entire planet...it doesn't matter if it was near the base or not...
                              What's the source of that info?

                              You spend two years searching the galaxy for the planet then you want to risk blowing it up for a shot at dialing the 9-chevron address? The original plan was to dial twice so they couldn't have risked it...i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in Air the whole point of disabling incoming wormholes was to reduce the risk of blowing up the planet...
                              There's clearly something that's been going on that I've missed. Is there any canon information that suggests that tapping power for too long to dial that far is what caused the system to overload and begin an unstable chain reaction?

                              This is because of the control crystal in Atlantis' DHD; Atlantis has even had two stargates since the Attero device blew the original one up...any Pegasus stargate hooked up to that crystal could dial Earth with enough power; it was the whole basis for McKay's plan to dial Earth from the fog planet in season 1 of Atlantis...
                              If that's so, no problem. I've never been 100% sure about the Earth dialing restriction thing.

                              The plan failed because Destiny was damaged so it couldn't properly channel all that energy into the stargate...my understanding of the episode was that the ship is capable of powering the stargate to dial the 9-chevron address while it is in a star but that because of all the damage to the ship, attempting to channel that much power into the stargate would blow up the ship...didn't we even see a power conduit explode while Rush was doing tests to see whether the ship could handle that much power?
                              The piddly explosion akin to a couple megajoules?

                              Still doesn't make sense. The ship could only tap a fraction of the power of a star. Clearly this caps any power source we've known thus far. We know for fact now that a ZPM's maximum power output is only a fraction of a star.
                              Unless of course the crew couldn't know what kind of star they were heading for, and hoped for a blue giant.
                              But still, if we go down that route, running at 2%/s over 50 seconds wouldn't be enough to even turn an entire continent into a smoking crater, or boil off a planet's oceans, since even a fraction of a blue giant's power wouldn't be enough, over 50 seconds, to muster something in the region of e33 J and more.

                              Unless the Destiny doesn't sundive to absorb power, but to stock massive amounts of hydrogen, possibly stocked in some ancestor to the ZPM, that is, a "pocket universe" device (hammer bag), or one that uses mass lightening. It could therefore pile up hundreds of millions if not many billions of tonnes of hydrogen, or perhaps even more, who knows.

                              Still, it will always comes very short of what we thought a ZPM could output. Eventually it would mean that both systems meet somewhere in the petawatt or exawatt range*. Thus any super explosion of a ZPM is not proper energy by largely due to those physics raping particles, and we would suggest, on the other hand, that the Destiny is capable of consuming most of its reserves within a few hours, enough to cover two 38 minutes trips.

                              * Values superior to exawatts could be reasonable if the guys counted on a blue giant, imho. We still have the Tria that expands the equivalent of teratons of energy just to decelerate, when you count relativity and time dilation, but perhaps there's an explanation down the road, one that involves mass lightening. Still, even if an Aurora's mass could be reduced by a factor of, say, a couple thousands, you'd still be looking at a power production of the order of many exawatts anyway.

                              Actually, Mallozzi confirmed that dialing the 9-chevron is a power issue and not anything special with any specific stargate...power is also the reason that Destiny stargate have such a limited range...
                              A few lightning bolts could power a stargate to a trip over several light years, for a short period. Destiny is capable of handling at the very least terawatts of power, evidence by those sun divings.
                              I guess the power conduits are really screwed up somewhere then. The weapons themselves may have been operating at a level below what they could normally reach.

                              i don't understand what you mean by "short lived" since black holes don't die unless they're consumed by a larger black hole...
                              Black holes are considered to "evaporate". The heavier it is, the longer it remains. One that masses ~2.3 e5 kg lasts one second.

                              Yes it was revealed...I could have sworn it was mentioned in Air (and/or the episode where Rush lies about finding another Icarus planet on Destiny's path)...but if not, I think it was in the Danial Jackson tutorial on the stargates...
                              Without evidence I can't really accept it.
                              It would be much better if you could tell where the info comes from.
                              Last edited by Mister Oragahn; 12 February 2010, 12:31 PM.
                              The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Mike. View Post
                                I see that several things were mentioned in this thread: a ZPM cam blow up a solar system, a naquadah asteroid (like the one in Fail Safe) goes nova. And a ZPM can't power a connection to the Destiny but the Icarus base could. Since the Icarus planet's core was made of naquadah/naquadria it means that either: a) the explosion was not portrayed correctly - it should have been much more massive or b) only a small part of the fissionable material went critical. a) seems most likely because of fx budget constrains and since the gate could harness all of the planet's power it wouldn't make sense that the reaction would stall so quickly.

                                So - naquadah asteroid < (but close to) a ZPM < naquadah planet

                                Did I get this right ?
                                It's not because a ball of something has x as a total energy density that when used as a power source, it will properly exploit that potential energy over a given time.
                                If that planet had a special core, and I'd really like to know where the frak that info comes from, the power production would still be limited to whatever power plant the Alterans built there.
                                Perhaps the Alterans used the whole planet as a reactor, using gravity to constrain the reaction, but I find that hard to believe because they'd have to prevent the overall mass of naqahdah or naqahdria from blowing up and that would mean creating an isolated volume within the volume. A hassle, in other words.
                                It could, on the contrary, picture a sort of power plant that would reach deep into the magma and suck up naqahdah to bring it up into a reaction chamber somewhere up in the crust, but still using the mass of the crust above as a plus to maintain pressure, along other force fields and super alloys for the chamber's shell.
                                There could be several chambers like that as well.

                                Now, what did cause the chain reaction? Tapping too much power, or the Ha'taks firing somewhere at the planet?
                                If it's naqahdria, then somehow tapping too much power is known to cause an overload. We've seen a naqahdria reactor reach overload because too much energy was taken from it at once, and that happen twice in fact, in Redemption and Memento, both in SG-1's 6th season.
                                If it's the second option, then the Ha'taks' weapons managed to damage the power plant. I can't picture those weapons posing any threat to the planet itself.

                                @blowing up the Asurans' city: I distinctly remember that the city was blown up because of the influx of power, not because the ZPMs themselves blew up.
                                Nope, McKay definitely overloaded the ZPMs themselves.
                                Yes, the city started to blow in some parts as McKay and co were escaping, but the big splosion is the ZPMs blowing up.

                                Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                                naquahdriah planet.
                                and the core of the planet is much bigger than a stupid asteroid
                                I have hard times believing it's naqahdria. This material is rather short lived, and it would have returned to naqahdah before the era of the homo erectus on Earth.
                                Naqahdah would make much more sense in all possible ways.

                                Originally posted by Mike. View Post
                                Yeah. So the planet explosion in Air II wasn't accurate. That's what's causing the confusion.
                                Not necessarily. You just need certain concentrations of isotope and an assured purity to obtain enough critical mass for certain types of reactions to sustain themselves.
                                The increase of temperature and pressure helps getting closer to other favourable parameters which themselves also allow chain reactions.

                                There might have been a large mass of naqahdah in the planet, but its density so low, so diluted, that it was difficult to kickstart a chain reaction.

                                However, I can picture the power plant, while harnessing large quantities of purified naqahdah from the core, overloading and exploding, thus triggering a chain reaction that would spread all over the core. The energy piling up, it would only be a question of time before the threshold for a massive explosion might be crossed. Not all of naqahdah may react, but a large amount would nonetheless, enough to generate a level of energy a couple of orders of magnitude above n e32 J, enough to overcome gravitational binding and even scatter a planetary mass that violently.
                                The Al'kesh is not a warship - Info on Naqahdah & Naqahdria - Firepower of Goa'uld staff weapons - Everything about Hiveships and the Wraith - An idea about what powers Destiny...

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