Fox Cancels Dollhouse

[Giantevilhead]

There is a difference between a work being derivative and it containing similar themes or concepts. Would you say that BSG was a derivative of Blade Runner given the skin jobs? or that it was a derivative of Alien given that Nash(?) was an human looking android?

Likewise Firefly didn't neccessarily 'take' ideas from ST or SW.

There was a show in the '70's about a guy that suffered some brain injury that could download any skill that he needed. (I wish I knew the name of it.) But you could argue that The Pretender stole from that show as did Dollhouse. DH moreso.

Its not about the themes or plot devices, its about how their used and the stories that are being told whether it be the story of the characters as individuals or as a group.

Firefly took some very basic ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars. It took the whole "wagon train to the stars" idea from Star Trek and it took the whole space being dirty and grimy idea from Star Wars but that's about it. Almost everything else is pretty original.

Dollhouse on the other hand has tons of ideas from other sources. The way memories are imprinted is very reminiscent of what did in Dark City where a race of dying parasitic aliens study humans by implanting different memories and personalities in people.

Of course, the idea that it's getting harder and harder to tell if the difference between actives and actuals is taken from Blade Runner.

Just the last two episodes had a lot of stuff that are taken from other sources. The way Senator Perrin was used by Rossum is a lot like the way Quaid was used by Cohaagen in Total Recall. The only real difference is that Quaid's original personality knew what he was getting into and had a plan to get his body back.

Echo being "awakened" in this previous episode and beginning to remember the previous personalities she's been imprinted with shares many similarities with what happens in Planescape: Torment. In the game, you play as The Nameless One, voiced by Michael T. Weiss interestingly enough, who is immortal but has a chance of losing his memories whenever he suffers a fatal wound. Throughout the game, you try to find out the secret to the The Nameless One's immortality and in the search, you discover what some of his previous personalities did. As you learn more about The Nameless One's past, he begins to remember abilities, powers, and skills of the previous personalities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they add clones to the mix. The Rossum Corporation would then be able to offer clients immortality by allowing them to preserve their personalities and memories in exact clones of themselves, just like in The Sixth Day.

[HAL2100]

Firefly took some very basic ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars. It took the whole "wagon train to the stars" idea from Star Trek and it took the whole space being dirty and grimy idea from Star Wars but that's about it. Almost everything else is pretty original.

Dollhouse on the other hand has tons of ideas from other sources. The way memories are imprinted is very reminiscent of what did in Dark City where a race of dying parasitic aliens study humans by implanting different memories and personalities in people.

Of course, the idea that it's getting harder and harder to tell if the difference between actives and actuals is taken from Blade Runner.

Just the last two episodes had a lot of stuff that are taken from other sources. The way Senator Perrin was used by Rossum is a lot like the way Quaid was used by Cohaagen in Total Recall. The only real difference is that Quaid's original personality knew what he was getting into and had a plan to get his body back.

Echo being "awakened" in this previous episode and beginning to remember the previous personalities she's been imprinted with shares many similarities with what happens in Planescape: Torment. In the game, you play as The Nameless One, voiced by Michael T. Weiss interestingly enough, who is immortal but has a chance of losing his memories whenever he suffers a fatal wound. Throughout the game, you try to find out the secret to the The Nameless One's immortality and in the search, you discover what some of his previous personalities did. As you learn more about The Nameless One's past, he begins to remember abilities, powers, and skills of the previous personalities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they add clones to the mix. The Rossum Corporation would then be able to offer clients immortality by allowing them to preserve their personalities and memories in exact clones of themselves, just like in The Sixth Day.

You're still missing my point, its not about the plot devices or themes its about the stories being told with them. Is a police story derivative because it uses police cars? Is it derivative because it depicts the officers in the agency as corrupt? Is 'Saving Private Ryan' derivative because it depicts the harsh realities of war? SPR may have been the first film to truly depict on film the horror of war, but any subsequent film is not neccessarily derivative because it chooses to be just as horrific as 'SPR' even when depicting a different battle. Is New Moon derivative because the story was heavily inspired by Romeo and Juliet (which the author has admitted as an influence)? Is BSG:RDM derivative because it was based on BSG:TOS and obviously very heavily relied on the original series for the general story line and even character names?

[Giantevilhead]

You're still missing my point, its not about the plot devices or themes its about the stories being told with them. Is a police story derivative because it uses police cars? Is it derivative because it depicts the officers in the agency as corrupt? Is 'Saving Private Ryan' derivative because it depicts the harsh realities of war? SPR may have been the first film to truly depict on film the horror of war, but any subsequent film is not neccessarily derivative because it chooses to be just as horrific as 'SPR' even when depicting a different battle. Is New Moon derivative because the story was heavily inspired by Romeo and Juliet (which the author has admitted as an influence)? Is BSG:RDM derivative because it was based on BSG:TOS and obviously very heavily relied on the original series for the general story line and even character names?

Except that I'm not just talking about plot themes or devices anymore. The examples I gave are not nearly as general as the ones you gave. I'm not saying that because the show stars humans, it's a rip off of The Queen's Messenger, the first television show ever made, that also happened to star humans. I mentioned very specific ideas that were from other sources, including an entire plot thread that was very similar to that of a movie's.

Rossum altered Perrin's memories so that Perrin would go after them without knowing that he really worked for them. Rossum planned it so that Perrin would eventually turn on the people who are helping him go after Rossum, exonerating Rossum and putting it in a much better position. In Total Recall, Cohaagen altered Quaid's memories so that Quaid would go after Cohaagen by allying with the mutants without know that he was really working for Cohaagen. The plan was to let Quaid reach the mutant leader, leading Cohaagen's forces there too so that they can destroy the mutant resistance, thus allowing Cohaagen to completely control Mars. It's the same plot, even their wives are really working for the bad guys and they're both blond. I can understand some of that being an homage to Total Recall but there are just way too many similarities.

Also, your example of BSG being derivative of the original series is completely erroneous since it's a remake and therefore is supposed to be based heavily on the original series. Otherwise it wouldn't be a remake.

[HAL2100]

Except that I'm not just talking about plot themes or devices anymore. The examples I gave are not nearly as general as the ones you gave. I'm not saying that because the show stars humans, it's a rip off of The Queen's Messenger, the first television show ever made, that also happened to star humans. I mentioned very specific ideas that were from other sources, including an entire plot thread that was very similar to that of a movie's.

Rossum altered Perrin's memories so that Perrin would go after them without knowing that he really worked for them. Rossum planned it so that Perrin would eventually turn on the people who are helping him go after Rossum, exonerating Rossum and putting it in a much better position. In Total Recall, Cohaagen altered Quaid's memories so that Quaid would go after Cohaagen by allying with the mutants without know that he was really working for Cohaagen. The plan was to let Quaid reach the mutant leader, leading Cohaagen's forces there too so that they can destroy the mutant resistance, thus allowing Cohaagen to completely control Mars. It's the same plot, even their wives are really working for the bad guys and they're both blond. I can understand some of that being an homage to Total Recall but there are just way too many similarities.

Also, your example of BSG being derivative of the original series is completely erroneous since it's a remake and therefore is supposed to be based heavily on the original series. Otherwise it wouldn't be a remake.

So just because Shakespeare wrote a story about star crossed lovers, I as a writer can't write about a boy and girl in love and separated by their families. Say a story set in deep south in 60's were once is white and one is black? Or to make it more inline with R&J, a story where the disagreement between the two families is less decisive such as one a member of one family being fired by a member of the other family?

[Giantevilhead]

So just because Shakespeare wrote a story about star crossed lovers, I as a writer can't write about a boy and girl in love and separated by their families. Say a story set in deep south in 60's were once is white and one is black? Or to make it more inline with R&J, a story where the disagreement between the two families is less decisive such as one a member of one family being fired by a member of the other family?

First of all, you're completely twisting my argument. I never said that stories can't be derivative. West Side Story is extremely derivative of Romeo and Juliet, it's pretty much a retelling of the story but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just can't be as unique as the original.

Second, I never even said that Dollhouse was bad because it was derivative. This is what I said:

Dollhouse does seem to be the most derivative of Whedon's shows. When I'm watching Dollhouse, I keep getting reminded of Blade Runner, The Bourne Identity, Dark City, The Prisoner, and Planescape: Torment. On the other hand, even though Firefly took ideas from Star Trek and Star Wars, I was never really think about them when I was watching Firefly.

I simply said that Dollhouse is a lot less original than Whedon's other works.

Third, did you even read my posts? I'm not saying that Dollhouse only took basic plot ideas from other sources. I'm saying that it took specific details from other sources. I'm not saying that an artist who paints a portrait of a woman is trying to copy Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa. However, if an artist paints a portrait, using the same style and materials as Leonardo da Vinci used, of a woman who happens to look a lot like the woman in Mona Lisa, sitting in a similar position, wearing similar clothes, and didn't paint the eyebrows then maybe it just might be possible that the artist was trying to imitate or copy the Mona Lisa.

[HAL2100]

First of all, you're completely twisting my argument. I never said that stories can't be derivative. West Side Story is extremely derivative of Romeo and Juliet, it's pretty much a retelling of the story but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just can't be as unique as the original.

Second, I never even said that Dollhouse was bad because it was derivative. This is what I said:



I simply said that Dollhouse is a lot less original than Whedon's other works.

Third, did you even read my posts? I'm not saying that Dollhouse only took basic plot ideas from other sources. I'm saying that it took specific details from other sources. I'm not saying that an artist who paints a portrait of a woman is trying to copy Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa. However, if an artist paints a portrait, using the same style and materials as Leonardo da Vinci used, of a woman who happens to look a lot like the woman in Mona Lisa, sitting in a similar position, wearing similar clothes, and didn't paint the eyebrows then maybe it just might be possible that the artist was trying to imitate or copy the Mona Lisa.

Derivative is typically used in a negative fashion.

[Giantevilhead]

Derivative is typically used in a negative fashion.

That doesn't change the fact that Dollhouse is more derivative than Whedon's other work.

[Coronach]

I think it's a shame Dollhouse got cancelled. In my humble opinion, I felt it was really a good show...and it was only getting better in Season 2. Ah well

[-Major Woody]

I saw it coming when FOX cancelled The Sarah Connor Chronicles last season.

[badwolfSG]

I saw it coming when FOX cancelled The Sarah Connor Chronicles last season.

I saw Dollhouse and Sarah Connor Chronicles both being Cancelled, which is why I stopped watching them. I, personally, thought they were both great shows, but I just was getting feed up with getting really into a show and it being cancelled on me.

[HAL2100]

I saw Dollhouse and Sarah Connor Chronicles both being Cancelled, which is why I stopped watching them. I, personally, thought they were both great shows, but I just was getting feed up with getting really into a show and it being cancelled on me.

At least they gave both a chance to succeed. 'Defying Gravity' was a great show with a lot of promise that ABC set up for failure from day one. Incredibly promising storyline.

[magictrick]

Don't get why Joss still works with FOX after everything that's happened. I guess he wants exposure for his shows and in order to mainstream them he needs a big network. Although in this case can't really blame FOX. Dollhouse never seemed to gather as much support as Firefly.

[Amalthea]

Don't get why Joss still works with FOX after everything that's happened. I guess he wants exposure for his shows and in order to mainstream them he needs a big network. Although in this case can't really blame FOX. Dollhouse never seemed to gather as much support as Firefly.

Well, in Joss' defense, the dweebs that canceled Firefly don't work at Fox anymore, they work at NBC. It's a whole new set of dweebs that have canceled Dollhouse.

[jelgate]

Well, in Joss' defense, the dweebs that canceled Firefly don't work at Fox anymore, they work at NBC. It's a whole new set of dweebs that have canceled Dollhouse.

I think that is really fair. Unlike Firefly Dollhouse was given a chance. You can't blame Fox for all the failures.

[HAL2100]

I think that is really fair. Unlike Firefly Dollhouse was given a chance. You can't blame Fox for all the failures.

No you can. The fundamental problem with the broadcast networks is that they want a hit right out the door. If a new show isn't a hit in the first 15 minutes of its first episode, its canceled. Exageration yes, but the point is that networks aren't willing to stick with a show.

In its first season, MASH wasn't that well received and finished at 47 overall, yet in its series finale remains the highest rated in history.

You also have nearsighted executives who don't consider the big picture. Case in point, NBC canceled Star Trek after three seasons and only later learned that while it never peaked higher then number 52, it consistently won the 16 to 39 demographic.