The Name of the Doctor (3314/714)

[SaberBlade]

http://www.bbcamerica.com/doctor-who/monsters/solomon/

Weird, I really didn't remember his name being Solomon.

Remind me ...

End of season four. The Doctor was shot by a Dalek just after being reunited with Rose. Instead of fully regenerating, he healed himself up and put the rest of the regeneration energy into a hand that was cut off during the Christmas Special after Nine became Ten. The rest of his energy ended up creating the DoctorDonna.

The 11th isn't the final Doctor, or at least he needn't be. After all he threatened the Cyber Planner that he would regenerate and burn up its circuitry. And I doubt that was a bluff either. There was no indication that it was.

I know he won't be the final Doctor, but if John Hurt is the original pre-Doctor, then Eleven would be the last out of the Doctor's original permitted regenerations.

Without outside interference, Time Lords have 12 regenerations by default. This means there should have been a Thirteen Doctor at some point. However, as previously stated, Tenth used an additional regeneration after being shot by the Daleks. As a result, the final Doctor should be the Twelve incarnation. If John Hurt's character was the original born Galifrayian because he started calling himself The Doctor, then Eleven is the twelfth incarnation and therefore the last incarnation.

First Doctor to Tenth Doctor was 9 regenerations. 10 was used creating the DoctorDonna and 11 was used with the current Doctor. If John Hurt regenerated into the First Doctor, then that would be the final regeneration used up. The interesting thing is, Valeyard was said to be the Doctor's penultimate incarnation, so with one regeneration left, Valeyard should be the next form the Doctor takes before fully regenerating into Twelve. It was also specifically said Valeyard is between his 12th and 13th regeneration, not his 12 to 13 incarnation (which can not longer happen thanks to Tenth) so The Doctor will use his up his twelfth regeneration, become Valeyard (his 12th incarnation) before finally settling into his 13th incarnation. It fits he'd be Valeyard, or I'm just really overthinking it at 12:23am.

So I can't see John Hurt being the pre-Doctor because Eleven would have no regenerations left and be the last Doctor. With that all said, I am certain the groundwork has been laid to give the Doctor more regenerations in the future, be it with Amy recreating the Doctor with her memory after Big Bang 2 or River giving The Doctor all her remaining regeneration energy (or even earlier with the entire human race psychically empowering the Doctor).

[SGalisa]

I don't believe John Hurt is the pre-Doctor. There are several reasons for this.

Reason 1. Eleventh would be the final Doctor.

Him being a pre-Doctor does fit in line with his regeneration history, but Ten used two regenerations (one becoming Eleventh, but another previously in the creation of The DoctorDonna).

Pre-Doctor
Regeneration 1: First Doctor
Regeneration 2: Second Doctor
Regeneration 3: Third Doctor
Regeneration 4: Fourth
Regeneration 5: Fifth
Regeneration 6: Sixth
Regeneration 7: Seventh
Regeneration 8: Eighth
Regeneration 9: Ninth
Regeneration 10: Tenth
Regeneration 11: Tenth (Stolen Earth/Journey's End. Like it or not, it was still a full regeneration used)
Regeneration 12 (Final): Eleventh

So there is no way for him to become The Beast, the Storm or The Valeyard since when Eleven dies, he's dead for good. If not for that pesky DoctorDonna regeneration but I can't see it

Reason 2: The Doctor said he picked that name, and in doing so it was like a promise he made. He made a promise when he became The Doctor. However, John Hurt broke the promise. So he would have had to be The Doctor to begin with in order for the promise to have been broken.

The whole who is John Hurt scenario? It would depend on which perspective the current creators are taking this from. Both sides of the equation can be possible, depending on one's POV.

The 11th isn't the final Doctor, or at least he needn't be. After all he threatened the Cyber Planner that he would regenerate and burn up its circuitry. And I doubt that was a bluff either. There was no indication that it was.

End of season four. The Doctor was shot by a Dalek just after being reunited with Rose. Instead of fully regenerating, he healed himself up and put the rest of the regeneration energy into a hand that was cut off during the Christmas Special after Nine became Ten. The rest of his energy ended up creating the DoctorDonna.



I know he won't be the final Doctor, but if John Hurt is the original pre-Doctor, then Eleven would be the last out of the Doctor's original permitted regenerations.

Without outside interference, Time Lords have 12 regenerations by default. This means there should have been a Thirteen Doctor at some point. However, as previously stated, Tenth used an additional regeneration after being shot by the Daleks.

I wouldn't get too tangled into which regeneration the current *Matt Smith's* Doctor is, as it's already been revealed that depending on how well this series continues to thrive or not, depends on whether or not TPTB in control of everything about DOCTOR WHO will extend his life beyond if/whoever is next and beyond plays the Doctor's part. There has also been an on-going debate of the original Doctor being portrayed by another actor (and known as "The Forgotten Doctor".. I think it was Peter Cushing) in the movie versions. So, we're well beyond the standard regeneration cycle, if such personas also get tossed into the mix.

Personally, if the series does well enough into future months/years ahead, then the standard (default) regeneration cycle will be broken with some sort of rational explanation.
It will probably depend on who is TPTB at that time, and how many more stories get sent across the writers desks, etc.

[scifan]

What if this "Doctor" is the reason for all of the Timelords being killed? None of the Doctors want to really say what happened and Clara did see his "name" in the history book? Just an idea.

[Sealurk]

Personally, I think the Doctor's regeneration cycle was renewed or the limit removed when he started fighting in the Time War because I can imagine the Time Lords doing everything they could to minimise casualties, especially for major players like the Doctor. If they could resurrect the Master with his own brand new cycle of regenerations, it's probable they did the same for the Doctor (whether he liked it or not) and perhaps every Time Lord everywhere.

The Doctor hasn't shown much if any concern about how few regenerations he has left, he probably burned up an entire regeneration without so much as a second thought in The Stolen Earth and readily used regenerative energy to heal River's wrist in The Angels Take Manhattan (though granted, she wasn't happy about that and called it a stupid waste). Now, this could be because he isn't afraid of dying (Nine wasn't, at least if it meant something) and if Ten's words in The End of Time still hold true for Eleven, he still might think he's already lived too long. But even so, if he was still subject to the thirteen incarnation limit imposed before the Time War surely he would be very worried about the possibility of the Valeyard rearing his head soon?

In fact, the new regeneration effect seen in the revived series could be interpreted as evidence - with a new regeneration cycle comes a new regeneration process, equivalent to an upgrade being rolled out.

On the subject of the Hurt incarnation, I doubt he's the Zeroth Doctor. It might seem too obvious, but I'm sticking to the idea that he was the one who in effect sacrificed his name and almost existence in order to end the Time War by doing something completely necessary ("What I did, I did without choice." "I know.") and yet something so unforgivably terrible and monstrous that the other incarnations actively bury all knowledge of him. If he broke the promise, doesn't that imply there was a promise in effect to break in the first place?

One final thought - anybody else think this was just a visit to Trenzalore, not the visit to Trenzalore? Assuming the Silence were actually right, it didn't seem like anybody was compelled to answer truthfully at any point (in fact the Doctor resisted the GI's interrogation even though it nearly cost him Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Strax) and it didn't feel much like the Fall of the Eleventh. I think we'll be seeing that planet again, when Matt Smith eventually chooses to step down.

[Coco Pops]

Yes seriously.

John Hurt is The Doctor

All the others that followed were regenerations of him but pale by comparison because he was The original... The one that came before all the others and did something that they all have pushed back into their memories to never speak of again.

That sounds kind of silly and ill-concieved...I am sure Moffat will be plagerising you as fast as he can...

He probably would if he knew..... I'm that awesome



If John Hurt's Doctor is the Valeyard that would be pretty damn awesome.....

But I think he's the first original Doctor that did something very bad for peace...........

He then regenerated into the first TV version of the Doctor that we see in "An Unearthly Child".........

Stole the TARDIS because Galifrey was about to fall. I think he started the time war.

[Coco Pops]

One last niggle.

How did they contact River for that stupid conference call thing, when she's in the Library computer. River even mentions it.

Did they contact River of another time period?

[P-90_177]

One last niggle.

How did they contact River for that stupid conference call thing, when she's in the Library computer. River even mentions it.

Did they contact River of another time period?

The Conference call required a dream state. Since River was downloaded into the Library her whole existence could be considered a dream.
As for how she knew to do so, if the Doctor had mentioned what happened to River to Vastra then she may have thought to include a message to River in a book. Since she has a lot of time on her hands, River would have come across it sooner or later.

[Coco Pops]

The Conference call required a dream state. Since River was downloaded into the Library her whole existence could be considered a dream.
As for how she knew to do so, if the Doctor had mentioned what happened to River to Vastra then she may have thought to include a message to River in a book. Since she has a lot of time on her hands, River would have come across it sooner or later.

But what about all the other appearances of River? Was that really her?

[P-90_177]

But what about all the other appearances of River? Was that really her?

Errr. Not quite sure specifically what you mean. If you mean in this particular episode then as River said it is because she had maintained the link with Clara. Clara after that was essentially carrying River around in her head. The Doctor is Psychic so that is how he was aware of her.

If you're talking about Rivers previous appearances in other episodes then all of those were before her death in the library.

[Coco Pops]

Errr. Not quite sure specifically what you mean. If you mean in this particular episode then as River said it is because she had maintained the link with Clara. Clara after that was essentially carrying River around in her head. The Doctor is Psychic so that is how he was aware of her.

If you're talking about Rivers previous appearances in other episodes then all of those were before her death in the library.

Yes I meant those other appearances in past episodes.


I've revised the timeline of my "real doctor" idea

But I think he's the first original Doctor that did something very bad for peace...........

He then regenerated into the first TV version of the Doctor that we see in "An Unearthly Child".........

Stole the TARDIS because Galifrey was about to fall. I think he started the time war.

[Quizziard]

One final thought - anybody else think this was just a visit to Trenzalore, not the visit to Trenzalore? Assuming the Silence were actually right, it didn't seem like anybody was compelled to answer truthfully at any point (in fact the Doctor resisted the GI's interrogation even though it nearly cost him Vastra, Jenny, Clara and Strax) and it didn't feel much like the Fall of the Eleventh. I think we'll be seeing that planet again, when Matt Smith eventually chooses to step down.

River was compelled to speak the truth, "revealing" the Doctor's name. Though, quite cleverly, off-camera (and arguably against the Doctor's wishes). We were probably imagining what his Fall would be - but could it simply be having to reveal his secret, his greatest lie, he has not always been "The Doctor" (i.e. for a short period he was the John Hurt non-Doctor)?

[GodAtum]

Spoiler:

John Hurt will play the Ninth Doctor in the 'Doctor Who' 50th anniversary episode.

The 73-year-old actor's alter-ego will be a regeneration of the Time Lord, which the character has forgotten about, in the special after Christopher Eccleston - who played the ninth incarnation of the Doctor in 2005 - refused to return for the episode after holding talks with showrunner Steven Moffat.

A source told The Sun newspaper: "John will play the real Ninth Doctor. Christopher Eccleston has always been thought of as the Ninth Doctor but now that John has been revealed as the Ninth Doctor, it shuffles Eccleston's Doctor to be the 10th Time Lord, Tennant the 11th and Smith the 12th.

"It also means the Doctor's time is running out as he can only regenerate 12 times."

John revealed earlier this week he will play "part of the Doctor" in a "kind of trinity" with Matt Smith and David Tennant, but the pair's Doctors will initially refuse to accept John's character is one of them until it becomes apparent thanks to their sonic screwdrivers.

The source explained: "Steven loves a complex plot and there will be plenty of surprises along the way.

"The reason the Doctor has forgotten his ninth incarnation will become clear but it's to do with the Time War and his shame over his behaviour in it.

"Tennant and Smith's Doctors will at first refuse to accept Hurt is them -- until their sonic screwdrivers confirm it and announce, 'He's us. He's the ninth us'."

John's Doctor has deliberately been given a style similar to both the Eighth Doctor - who was portrayed by Paul McGann - and Christopher's Time Lord.

A source said: "John was given a very familiar look that goes half way between two regenerations."

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/lif...Doctor/?ref=ms

[Varinus]

Spoiler:

John Hurt will play the Ninth Doctor in the 'Doctor Who' 50th anniversary episode.

The 73-year-old actor's alter-ego will be a regeneration of the Time Lord, which the character has forgotten about, in the special after Christopher Eccleston - who played the ninth incarnation of the Doctor in 2005 - refused to return for the episode after holding talks with showrunner Steven Moffat.

A source told The Sun newspaper: "John will play the real Ninth Doctor. Christopher Eccleston has always been thought of as the Ninth Doctor but now that John has been revealed as the Ninth Doctor, it shuffles Eccleston's Doctor to be the 10th Time Lord, Tennant the 11th and Smith the 12th.

"It also means the Doctor's time is running out as he can only regenerate 12 times."

John revealed earlier this week he will play "part of the Doctor" in a "kind of trinity" with Matt Smith and David Tennant, but the pair's Doctors will initially refuse to accept John's character is one of them until it becomes apparent thanks to their sonic screwdrivers.

The source explained: "Steven loves a complex plot and there will be plenty of surprises along the way.

"The reason the Doctor has forgotten his ninth incarnation will become clear but it's to do with the Time War and his shame over his behaviour in it.

"Tennant and Smith's Doctors will at first refuse to accept Hurt is them -- until their sonic screwdrivers confirm it and announce, 'He's us. He's the ninth us'."

John's Doctor has deliberately been given a style similar to both the Eighth Doctor - who was portrayed by Paul McGann - and Christopher's Time Lord.

A source said: "John was given a very familiar look that goes half way between two regenerations."

http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/lif...Doctor/?ref=ms

I have just read the above spoiler and cannot help but feel that it is only partially true. Why would an actor as great as John Hurt blab the whole thing now? I think this is mostly true but I would guess there are a couple of large acts of omission here which are central to the actual plot and may even cast a very different light on what is being said.

[Greenee]

I've just found the time to watch it and before I go back to read myself through this whole thread: WHAT?!!!

[Greenee]

Brilliant episode!
But how the hell does the ending work?????
Such a great story, and so Clara is just an ordinary girl...
Definately need to watch this again to get my head round some stuff and gather thoughts...

OH. MY. GOD. The teaser alone just about makes up for every weak episode this season.

Strax is Glaswegian... THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. I know somebody who will be very pleased to learn this...

The OTHER psychic paper.

"The little... daleks"

"If you are a time traveller there is one place you must never go" and "The Doctor has a secret that he will take to his grave. It is discovered" Wow. That was a creepy, hairs standing up twist.

TARDIS falls from orbit with every system off, sustains nothing more than a cracked window. I LOVE this ship.

Strax seems to be more back to his usual self. I approve.

Is the GI talking about... the Valeyard? ARGH! HE SAID IT!

Yowzer... nice touch. He said he'd never say it again, but then the Doctor always lies.

"Do not divulge our military secrets!"

Please tell me Strax comes back...

Wow. Wow. Just... wow.

I'd absolutlely sign, what you two said. This is possimbly the best solution for the Clara mysterie they could come up with and I LOVE it: Clara beeing something of her own and still all teh connections between her and River have a meening and are more then false hints to distrac the fans. I didn't think this would be possible without ger actully beeing River (still, the mysterie is not fully solved. How are tehy connected?) The ending is the most teasing Cliffhanger ever (and I though it couldn't get worse than the christmasspecial - worse in an possitive way), Bluddy priliant acting of all of them. I was on top of suspense frome the very opening scene. Just: WOW!

Oh one of my favourite linese: Stax: DId your skin just turned a darker shade of green?