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    I agree. Often, Stargate manages to acknowledge how much of morality is ambiguous, and dependent on culture.

    Seaboe
    If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

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      Originally posted by Seaboe Muffinchucker View Post
      I agree. Often, Stargate manages to acknowledge how much of morality is ambiguous, and dependent on culture.

      Seaboe
      Over the years, I had the distinct impression that the writers seemed to emphasize much more on morality in the earlier seasons of SG1. As the seasons go on, it seems it's more and more assumed and (as mentioned by Sea) acknowledged.

      Of course it's quite obvious that some episodes, such as 402 - the Other side, which happens to be one of my favorite, were created specifically to address morality dilemmas. Understandably, the format of SG1 and SGA did not really permit to dive deeply into these conundrums, not easy to tell a story in 45 mins!
      Spoiler:
      I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

      Comment


        Originally posted by AleksisMi View Post
        ok... lets look at it, murder is considered a act of evil, sending people to go to their death potentially is theoritical act of evil too, combining the two together doesnt exactly neutralize the factor it is evil for both ends of it
        But they're not sending people to their death; they're sending people into a war zone where there is an increased risk of death.

        I'm a pacifist and as such I have a personal moral opposition to war. I'm also not particularly fond of the practices that are used to get people to participate combat, but you weren't taking the position that all war is evil, so I don't see how you can justify saying a very basic tenant for how war works is a reason to think they are the evil side.

        my main point is we do not know that either side was good in this scenario, we dont even know if we helped the lesser evil, we assume we did, but the whole point is to analyze the whole episodes scenario, and the truth is, we dont know if we did the right thing, we only presume we did because of our comparison to our own history, but that takes alot of presumptions from one basic description, the gouuld are breeders, and they are not .... good.... though they could become good with time as individuals perhaps and perhaps even have queens become good like hte tokra queen
        It's fair to point out that we don't know a lot about the other side, but you're going to a lot of effort to create a moral equivalency between the other side and people who admitted to creating a bunker to hide themselves away while their gas sought to purge people who indiscriminately bred with one another. They had a chance to defend themselves, and they never said that O'neill didn't understand, and that there was more to it than that. One side admitted to engaging in a genocide for no other reason than that their targets were "impure." If they did that because the other side was actually aggressive and wanted to wipe them out for being different, they had an opportunity to say so.

        Comment


          HRRRMMMM..... im not trying to be difficult just pointing out good story arch ideas for future references to that episode,

          a story is easy as a good vs evil, but just think if we thought we were "slaying the dragon" to free the townspeople, but it turns out hte towns people were actually more monstrous then the dragon and go on a conquest or killing spree useing "magic" or technology that they have incredible abilities with,

          because the dragon was actually one of them who had used said technology, or "magic", to armor and oppose them... but not for normal reasons, just because he dissagreed with something petty and dogmatic they did, not that he was opposed to thier general ways of conquest...

          see thats moderately amusing and ironic to free the true monster when you thought you were defeating evil and end up unleashing the greater evil that one was boxing in for petty reasons... its just amusing and good story writing ideas,

          as well as critical thinking to ask why we are so quick to jump into a war without knowing the only barest time with the enemy, only hearing the words of one side and assuming they are good or evil, and that makes the other one the opposite clearly, but does it?

          its just a amusing story idea and a exercise in asking why we are so quick to assume the other must be friends if that one is a foe,

          its just we have these preconceived notions on how things MUST be if we think we understand one side without even fully knowing both sides we decide to destroy one without knowing the consequences....

          take the middle east for example...

          Comment


            oh and yes... i do appreciate stargates writing and acting and props, it is fantastic and helped give me new ideas and feelings in general practically grew up watching this and other shows like robocop the tv series and gi joe.... as well as the funner and freindlier cartoons and star wars... startrek next generation...

            alota tv time lol but science fiction is at its best when its about humans and thier morals vs needs vs new ideas that create new quandaries and behaviours in people and the effects of colonizing new territory

            Comment


              Originally posted by AleksisMi View Post
              HRRRMMMM..... im not trying to be difficult just pointing out good story arch ideas for future references to that episode,
              So you're not talking about the story as it is, you're talking about how the events of the episode could be rewritten in a followup story?

              a story is easy as a good vs evil, but just think if we thought we were "slaying the dragon" to free the townspeople, but it turns out hte towns people were actually more monstrous then the dragon and go on a conquest or killing spree useing "magic" or technology that they have incredible abilities with,
              It's not a good versus evil story as is. As is it's a good versus evil versus morally gray story. Jack is the third party and the writers make the story more complex by making audiences think about the morality of his actions. That thud against the iris at the end of the episode and the look on his face was a powerful moment.

              Could a story where it turns out that he acted rashly and picked the wrong side be interesting? Absolutely, but that doesn't work here because it's not believable that the bunker people had an opportunity to talk about how really bad the other side was and passed it up in favor of trying to justify why they were right for committing genocide against people who breeded indiscriminately when being accused.

              as well as critical thinking to ask why we are so quick to jump into a war without knowing the only barest time with the enemy, only hearing the words of one side and assuming they are good or evil, and that makes the other one the opposite clearly, but does it?
              Right and that is what Jack avoided by turning on the bunker people who had previously been feeding him misinformation about the other side. Taking out a faction who admits to meaningless genocide without hearing from the other side is not the same as going to war against faction B solely based off of how they are represented by faction A>

              its just a amusing story idea and a exercise in asking why we are so quick to assume the other must be friends if that one is a foe,
              Again, the one side they heard from admitted to being in the wrong. What you want to explore in story form is absolutely worth exploring, but you're crow barring it into an episode about people who admitted to genocide. You've talked a lot in this post about why you think your version of a story would be interesting, but you still aren't able to get beyond the issue that what you're proposing runs counter to what we know. Jack turned on a side who told them who they were. That would require a retcon to get around.

              You'd be better off pulling a Tegalus: Season 8's "Icon" is basically a retelling of season 3's "New Ground" done in a different way. By reusing the core elements, you can also tell the story the way you want to and then also return to it in a followup story.

              and gi joe
              Did you like it? This is a bit of an aside but relevant in that what you're doing with this episode is somewhat similar to what I did with GI Joe.

              I considered myself a huge GI Joe fan based solely off of having a lot of the toys. I mostly knew who was a Cobra and who was a Joe, and I knew some basic names and ideas because the packaging had little bios on them. I took those very sparse details, and I created my own backstories and plotlines where both factions had their own camps from which they would launch attacks on one another. Being asked to clean up and put them away was tragic because I used them for ongoing stories that lasted weeks. Characters would change sides, get captured (which I represented by literally tying them up), etc. It got to the point where I was desperate to immerse myself further in the world of GI Joe because to me it was the best thing over.

              That opportunity came thanks to a VHS copy of the 1987 "G.I. Joe: The Movie." Unfortunately, I was probably a bit too old for its intended demographic by that point because it was just horrible to me. It was very campy, nonsensical, and I couldn't take the repeated yells of "Go, Joe!" It made me realize that I wasn't a GI Joe fan at all, I was a fan of the GI Joe world that I created. It wasn't immediate, but over time I stopped building fictional scenarios within existing worlds and started creating my own worlds. You might want to consider doing that here; take the elements that you like (two sides at war and a third party who gets involved based off of the word of one side) and, at the most, create a story around that idea set in the your own world or, at the least, write a Stargate Fanfic involving a similar, but different world.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                Again, the one side they heard from admitted to being in the wrong.
                Really? When? They explained their reasoning; the explanation happened to be one that most modern people find revolting. They didn't ever admit that they were wrong, AFAIK.

                Seaboe
                If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

                Comment


                  Obviously I mean that they admitted to something that was wrong, not that they acknowledged understanding that their actions were wrong.

                  As I mentioned elsewhere in my post, they attempted to defend their actions: "trying to justify why they were right for committing genocide against people who breeded indiscriminately when being accused."
                  Last edited by Xaeden; 23 July 2018, 11:12 AM.

                  Comment


                    but hte point im making is.... they were wrong for thier choices, and the great thing about it is the asgard show not just the wrongness of the attack or hate of breeders and mixing and maxing, but hte danger of cloning and homogenity to the point of genetic breakdown of copies of copies of "perfect" supposedly copies... that the whole plan would spiral to degradation and bring about the ruin of what they considered perfect and end up with any momentary gains in immortality to turn into bitter ash as computer programs in essence....

                    my point was it would be interesting....

                    look if you cant follow a simple idea il try it again.... i word things in weird ways so il take the blame on this one....

                    if they were evil, to us, but we only saw what they told us....which was the difference between them and the others on their world,

                    they didnt tell us what they considered normal or every day in thier society, what kind of conditions on their world or in thier societies could breed that level of evil to suddenly come up and try to replace the rest of thier people with clones of themselves,

                    unless their worlds populace were evil, no one ever said evil had to be racist, biast, or neurotic about sexual intercourse, but what if their entire race was barbaricly cruel, or treated each other like the roman empire treated other regions, maybe they were a strict and civilized but cruel people,

                    maybe murder wasnt even against their laws or a concept they held as possible? they just never had reason to perform murder on their guests since they were in the midst of trade talks.... maybe we jump the conclusion that they are like us quickly....

                    take the episode
                    "
                    The Bedrosians were humans inhabiting the continent of Bedrosia (P2X-416). The people of Bedrosia believed that they were created by the god Nefertum, but the people on the other continent of Optrica

                    believed that they were brought through the Gateway (Stargate). It just so happened that the Stargate was on Bedrosian soil, so a war was being fought between the two continents. SG-1's arrival proved that the Optrican beliefs were correct, but they were considered spies by the Bedrosians and were captured

                    and tortured. With the help of Nyan, the archaeologist who excavated the Stargate, SG-1 and Nyan made their escape back to Earth, leaving the world to continue its war. The Bedrosians were introduced in the episode, 3.19 "New Ground".
                    "
                    New Ground, both sides were essentially the same, with a simple core founding argument between them, on thier origin being divine or alien.... and that is what i mean, both sides are essentially the same except a minor squable over origins of their people, presumably they are in a cold war between

                    doctrinated people in religion devotion, and doctrinated people in a argument of... we dont even know what they believe religiously or otherwise, they too may worship the gouuld just as aliens instead of gods, or perhaps as both

                    most worlds have a single core type of people in action... and if one half is willing to murder....

                    AND this is the point, that world of arguably two factions that are virtually the same except for a minor squable over origins enter a cold war, or a hot war for all i know...

                    we only heard from a archeologist and several military guys on thier world... perhaps they didnt tell the civilians and archeologists about the constant wars and engagements, all over a argument of origin....

                    and if they can do that, why do we assume the cloner/breeder argument is any different, both sides willing to arguably murder for a reason or offense if it was large enough for all we know,

                    and earths history is full of murderous barbarians and plunderers, and most of them .... were breeders, breeding doesnt make you good, it doesnt make you evil,

                    its just a generic description that can be put on good or evil or neutral.... if morally neutral can ever trully exist... which it probably cannot when evil and good actions exist side by side whereever neutrality claims to exist... maybe it can try though
                    Last edited by AleksisMi; 24 July 2018, 11:43 PM.

                    Comment


                      ahh im trying to read what i wrote and i think i might be too tired to write coherently, so my apolagies if i typed up a mess... il leave it for later to try to fix... but im overtired, exhausted, miserable a bit, aye.... perhaps later il try to fix it.... and until then il dream of owning a shipping company.... or a space ship manufactory :/ alas

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by AleksisMi View Post
                        look if you cant follow a simple idea il try it again
                        It's not a simple idea, you keep changing the goal posts. I also advise against insulting the people with whom you are trying to hold a civilized debate.

                        Seaboe
                        If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

                        Comment


                          I feel this conversation is going in circles. AleksisMi, maybe you should try your hand at fanfic.

                          Comment


                            at the end of that line you could see where i was blaming myself for not communicating what i feel is a basic concept, that each human world tends to favor having one general (ethical, moral, world view, genetic adaptions, religious, all these attributes tend to be shared, including their science and technology level and understanding of the universe) type of population, with their conflicts spurred on more by issues other then themselves, generally they are set in a motion due to the gouulds past influences, not by each others choices

                            Comment


                              I see. Yes, I suppose that's true, particularly your last sentence.

                              Seaboe
                              If you're going to allow yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in -- Steven Brust

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by jelgate View Post
                                I think that is a matter of being the audience of an outsider perspective. It's easy the call the SGC's actions immoral but the Eudorians were all offering us technology to defeat the Goa'uld. It would be like living in WWII and being an American and having a friend who says that we have a solution to defeat Japan. It would be hard to say no. Morals are good and important but history shows that we factor survival over morals. That said, obviously we we're in the wrong but as the saying goes about hindsight. This is also why I like controversy episodes. Morals be practicality are always interesting as both Jack and Daniel have valid points. In the end Daniel is right obviously since the Eurondoans are genocidal Nazis. At the same token the rest of SG1's point is very valid if not for the high price. One of my favorites and a rare excellent. Perfect score on the quiz. Haven't quite got to the puzzle but I'm almost there
                                Japan never had a chance, while the Goa'uld at that point could easily beat Earth - remember: The Tau'ri (Earth) has a snowball's chance in hell against even one mothership (them blowing the two Apophis brought was pure dumb luck and a chance of one in trillions probably (they knew the gate address and gated onto the ship, which had no gate defenses because Apophis thought that nobody knew that gate address!))!

                                Nukes (even with Naquadah) don't work and there are no other weapons capable of reaching or damaging the ship

                                Even during seasons 5, 6, 7 and 8 they really didn't stand a chance against even one Ha'tak if you took the drone-chair out (which the Wraith later on DID and it left Earth defenseless!)...the Prometheus couldn't damage a Ha'tak and neither can a BC-304 without APBWs!

                                The Eurondan stuff would equalize the playing-field a little (who knows what they can offer? Can those Aerofighters go into space? Can they damage a Goa'uld ship? Do they have other weapons that might work (like a large version of their energy-based hand weapons)?)...so what Jack and Daniel do is way more immoral than working with Space-Nazis!

                                They could have condemned the population of Earth to DEATH (a population they kept the secret of there being aliens that wanted them either wiped out or enslaved from! Seriously, I'd be pissed if any government did that and I would demand the heads of those leaders if something like this got out (and especially if I learned that the SGC let tons of promising technology slip through their fingers, like those Androids that Harlan made, the Eurondan tech etc. etc. - thus endangering Earth by putting their morals first instead of survival!))!

                                Doing that because you are angry and feel slighted/cheated/betrayed? Damned, such a person is not fit for command! Seriously, Jack should have received some form of punishment and the rest, too!)

                                Don't get me wrong, I like the team - but sometimes they act like school-children instead of professionals! Hell, they didn't even try for say a Tolan black market (I doubt that there aren't Tolan willing to sell some pieces of tech for something Earth can provide, be it materials for a researcher who didn't get a government grant (they still seem to have a capitalist society, with some elements of socialism! So you can problably still buy people!)) etc.!

                                Not to mention that the SGC never established an intelligence section (they were totally dependent on the stingy and often dishonest Tok'ra -.-)

                                greetings LAX
                                Last edited by Laxian of Earth; 24 February 2019, 09:26 AM.

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