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So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done

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    Originally posted by morrismike View Post
    One needs to look no further than 20th century Germany to see how much "evil" potential there is in the human race.There is a lot of good in us but the evil is just below the surface. I'm sure that Neville Chamberlain was fond of the "shades of gray" argument back in the day.
    Neville Chamberlain wasn't shades of gray. He was simple appeasement. You want shades if gray in WWII? That's firebombing Dresden and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or are you going to be unreasonably black and white and label the Allies as evil as the Goa'uld for actions that were tactically harsh but arguably necessary in those three cities?
    Last edited by Cold Fuzz; 11 April 2011, 03:34 AM.
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      Originally posted by Cold Fuzz View Post
      Neville Chamberlain wasn't shades of gray. He was simple appeasement. You want shades if gray in WWII? That's firebombing Dresden and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or are you going to be unreasonably black and white and label the Allies as evil as the Goa'uld for actions that were tactically harsh but arguably necessary in those three cities?
      Not to drag the thread offtopic, but Chamberlin's appeasement is a perfect example of a shade of grey, as it was cover for a massive British rearmament program. Chamberlin was flat out lying when he said stuff like "peace in our time" and sacrificed countries like Czechoslovakia in order to give Britain the time needed to build up its military. Not a very nice thing to do, but if he hadn't done it we'd have been fighting the Germans with World War 1 vintage kit.

      That was some pretty underhanded diplomacy, but without it, we would have lost. As you point out, and I agree with you, harsh decisions are sometimes needed.

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        Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
        Not to drag the thread offtopic, but Chamberlin's appeasement is a perfect example of a shade of grey, as it was cover for a massive British rearmament program. Chamberlin was flat out lying when he said stuff like "peace in our time" and sacrificed countries like Czechoslovakia in order to give Britain the time needed to build up its military. Not a very nice thing to do, but if he hadn't done it we'd have been fighting the Germans with World War 1 vintage kit.

        That was some pretty underhanded diplomacy, but without it, we would have lost. As you point out, and I agree with you, harsh decisions are sometimes needed.
        We and the French still got pushed out in 1939 so it still didn't work fully. Or maybe I am wrong

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          Originally posted by blackluster View Post
          Earth alone is inhabited by over a billion people. Every person's life on Earth is at risk since one has no idea how far the Alliance is willing to go to enforce their ideals. Earth's allies are also at risk since there is no guarantee that the Alliance will follow a diplomatic course in every case.
          Nah. Really?

          I'm not sure where you came upon the idea that people are only serious if they send zealots. That is rather ridiculous.
          I never said that thank you. So don't twist my words. But you did just say this up above: "Every person's life on Earth is at risk since one has no idea how far the Alliance is willing to go to enforce their ideals." Fanatacism is an extreme. And they are usually the most dangerous ones.

          People keep saying this has parallels to present day events. Last I looked it was religious fanatics who blew up buildings nearly ten years ago with planes. If you want me to draw parallels with current events and the LA, then why not go all the way?

          The Alliance is coldly calculating, but their manpower is of value. Attacking your enemy and persevering your trained soldiers is a mark of intelligence, not lack of resolve. Sending soldiers to needlessly die in war is an act of desperation. The Alliance are in no such position.
          But they do want to be taken seriously don't they? A major failed attack on Earth doesn't get you youtube videos to use for recruitment. Not to mention the loss of a cargo ship and the materials they used to build the bomb. See this is where I don't buy all this puffing up of the LA into more than they actually were...a loose organization of drug dealing thugs. To these people, I doubt one measly pilot was considered to be more of a priority than the mission itself.

          lol, well your lack of imagination is hardly something worth discussing...
          Nice underhanded comment rather than actually commenting on what I wrote. The writers create these super bad guys (Gou'ald, Anubis, Replicators, Ori) and force themselves to conveniently write around them. Earth should have long been gone. It doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to see that Earth was way over matched against such forces...only that such forces where controlled by complete idiots for not having swatted Earth out of their way. You going to tell me that the LA is more powerful than one single Ori ship?

          Earth adopting an isolationist policy must certainly be an opinion in the room in any HWC briefing. In fact, I think it has even come up in SG1 with a senator proposing the complete removal of the stargate because it brings nothing but trouble. The problem in this case is that some of those human populations have things we need to defend ourselves, such as Langara.So while the 'screw them and let them take care of themselves' viewpoint may have good reasons going for it, it doesn't work in every case.
          Yeah, and I addressed that if you'd go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say completely pull back from everywhere.

          Interestingly enough though, Earth has actually been doing this in isolated case as brainwashed Telford pointed out. The catch 22 of that is, that it has been driving more and more human populations into the arms of the Lucian Alliance as Earth is portrayed as a heartless superpower who just leaves people to die when it suits them. Sure, it is true in isolated cases, but there in lies the complexity of this kind of political situation. It mirrors the kind of conflicts we see today and it sure be clear to everyone that there is no easy solution. The problem in itself produces lots of intrigue and drama, which makes it ideal to incorporate into a tv show.
          So what if it does? They live on other planets far, far away from Earth. And more than likely they live on those nice quaint little planets with the Medieval village sets...which are oh so threatening. The Gou'ald in the Milky Way generally made sure that civilizations they conquered were not powerful enough to fight back.

          Earth was perfectly willing to slit the throats of the Langarans in order to dial Destiny. That should play over real well with any other allies it has left...if any.

          lol, don't you get it yet? This is one of the major reasons why Earth engaged in the covert operation. That is the big mystery in all this. What is the Lucian Alliance now in the position to offer a sovereign world that could make them think about betraying Earth after everything we've been through together? When you ponder on that for a moment, it would make any strategist very concerned. Everyone has a price as the saying goes, and if the Alliance have somehow managed to meet that price, Earth has some very serious problems.
          Oh, I get it just fine. Are you just going to throw several SG-1 episodes of backstory dealing with Langara out the window when new episodes concern them and require an understanding of who they are? I'm not.



          I'll restate this again.... Covert operation by Earth using the stones to do some spying on the Langarans. I can totally see that happening. Hijacking the gate and forcibly dialing the 9th chevron to Destiny has absolutely nothing to do with combating the LA "threat" in the Milky Way....which is why this episode stinks and is like the title of the thread says..."the most underhanded thing we've ever done".
          IMO always implied.

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            Originally posted by The Mighty 6 platoon View Post
            Not to drag the thread offtopic, but Chamberlin's appeasement is a perfect example of a shade of grey, as it was cover for a massive British rearmament program. Chamberlin was flat out lying when he said stuff like "peace in our time" and sacrificed countries like Czechoslovakia in order to give Britain the time needed to build up its military. Not a very nice thing to do, but if he hadn't done it we'd have been fighting the Germans with World War 1 vintage kit.

            That was some pretty underhanded diplomacy, but without it, we would have lost. As you point out, and I agree with you, harsh decisions are sometimes needed.
            Ah, thanks for the history lesson M6P. That information on Chamberlain is a critical piece of data and definitely puts the whole appeasement thing under a completely new context--definitely shades of grey. It was something I actually never heard until now so definite thanks for that info.

            Originally posted by morrismike View Post
            One needs to look no further than 20th century Germany to see how much "evil" potential there is in the human race.There is a lot of good in us but the evil is just below the surface. I'm sure that Neville Chamberlain was fond of the "shades of gray" argument back in the day.
            I know full well what kind of evil humanity is capable of as I see it often enough, especially hearing from my co-workers the kinds of messes they have to clean up because of other people's foolishness.

            However this idea that humanity is as evil as the Goa'uld... no. That kind of evil is a different order of magnitude, and is even quantifiable: Because of their racial memory, every Goa'uld born is evil. That's certainly not the case with humans. There has been only one exception to the Goa'uld racial memory: Egeria. After her, the Tok'ra became a separate race. Whereas with humans, a complex set of circumstances determine where a person will be on the spectrum of good and evil. And I say spectrum of good and evil because there is no person currently alive that is completely good or completely evil. So the idea that a newborn human will be as evil as a newborn Goa'uld symbiote is entirely inaccurate.

            Anyways, like F.O. Bennett, I can't really devote any more time to this thread and the other Seizure thread as real life calls.
            Last edited by Cold Fuzz; 11 April 2011, 10:37 AM.
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              Originally posted by LoneStar
              People keep saying this has parallels to present day events. Last I looked it was religious fanatics who blew up buildings nearly ten years ago with planes. If you want me to draw parallels with current events and the LA, then why not go all the way?
              Because there is no point? I can't recall the Lucian Alliance ever being characterized as fanatic. Their political structure doesn't even seem to feature any kind of religion whatsoever, they are allies of convenience. Why go the suicide bomber route when it is completely unnecessary, both from an universe perspective and from a story telling perspective?

              But they do want to be taken seriously don't they? A major failed attack on Earth doesn't get you youtube videos to use for recruitment. Not to mention the loss of a cargo ship and the materials they used to build the bomb. See this is where I don't buy all this puffing up of the LA into more than they actually were...a loose organization of drug dealing thugs. To these people, I doubt one measly pilot was considered to be more of a priority than the mission itself.
              That failed attempt wasn't through any kind of skill or ingenuity on Earth's part, just dumb luck. If you find yourself unable to take undetectable nuclear attacks on your headquarters seriously, then I really don't know what to tell you.

              Nice underhanded comment rather than actually commenting on what I wrote.
              My intent wasn't to be underhanded, just poking fun. Your opinion on the threat you perceive from the Lucian Alliance is entirely subjective, so there is no point debating it, not for me at least.

              You going to tell me that the LA is more powerful than one single Ori ship?
              They're not more powerful, but they're proving themselves to be a damn sight more dangerous. Honestly, SGU's Lucian Alliance make the Ori look like simpletons. Considering the net achievement, the Ori were pretty much a joke when all is said and done.

              Yeah, and I addressed that if you'd go back and read what I wrote. I didn't say completely pull back from everywhere.
              So what if it does? They live on other planets far, far away from Earth. And more than likely they live on those nice quaint little planets with the Medieval village sets...which are oh so threatening. The Gou'ald in the Milky Way generally made sure that civilizations they conquered were not powerful enough to fight back.

              Earth was perfectly willing to slit the throats of the Langarans in order to dial Destiny. That should play over real well with any other allies it has left...if any.
              You misunderstand. I was agreeing with your assertion and following it to a logical end where it is one of the opinions that I feel is a strong voice in Earth decision making. The point I was making is that it is one of many approaches and has its own benefits and drawbacks. The very nature of this kind of political situation is that there is no correct approach, the IOA is only left with bad choices and worse choices. Someone somewhere is guaranteed to lose.

              Oh, I get it just fine. Are you just going to throw several SG-1 episodes of backstory dealing with Langara out the window when new episodes concern them and require an understanding of who they are? I'm not.
              I don't see how it contradicts canon so I don't know what you are talking about.

              I'll restate this again.... Covert operation by Earth using the stones to do some spying on the Langarans. I can totally see that happening. Hijacking the gate and forcibly dialing the 9th chevron to Destiny has absolutely nothing to do with combating the LA "threat" in the Milky Way....which is why this episode stinks and is like the title of the thread says..."the most underhanded thing we've ever done".
              Well, at least you conceded the covert aspect. The 9th chevron dial attempt is a convoluted issue by itself since one can fashion any number of reasons Earth would get more serious.

              -One is an internal political aspect, as the visit from the senator and scientist goes, the Destiny mission has become about a bit more than the people stranded there.

              -The other is willing informants. Currently, Earth's ability to impede Lucian Alliance activity has essentially failed. So far the Alliance has managed to launch a rather successful counter-intelligence campaign against Earth, even achieving the unthinkable of brainwashing and turning an Airforce Colonel, a very high ranking officer who has given them goodness knows what already. Earth's sources of intelligence seem wholly ineffective in even stopping cloaked Tel'taks from coming and going from our atmosphere. Given this alarming position, Earth has a gift in a number of Alliance Traitors who they can draw info from. That is an information source that given the current state of affairs is desperately needed.
              -Another reason is technology acquisition. So far the Lucian Alliance are able to successfully jam Asgard beaming and sensor technology which was supposed to be years ahead of the Goa'uld tech that the Lucian supposedly just stole and don't understand. The Alliance are learning at a very alarming rate, neutralizing several of the core technologies that gave Earth an edge in most space conflicts. Letting the Alliance acquire Destiny is a disaster waiting to happen as they seem to have some background info on the ship that Earth doesn't, even with the Atlantis database. If they are able to acquire any sort of technological edge through the Destiny's technology, Earth would be at a major disadvantage.

              The above are just some superficial reasons why the defense and proper running of Destiny are important, but personally I think there is much more to it in terms of the Langaran capability, convincing them that the LA method is doomed to fail (Earth couldn't be sure if Destiny was one of the chips in the LA offer to Langara) and also preventing the destruction of a primary naquadah source.

              The problem is multifaceted, which is why I have no problem suspending disbelief when it comes to the desperation HWC showed with regard to making sustainable contact with Destiny.

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                Originally posted by morrismike View Post
                no risk??????????????
                The last two planets that dialed destiny are dead. McCay has demonstrates awful judgement in these situatations. We are fortunate the asgard are no longer around or our actions would have consequences.
                Wasn´t it so that the last time McCay said that something is safe he blew up a planet (or was it an entire solar system - that Ancient Cannon on the planet)?

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                  Exactly. I was totally expecting the planet to blow. I can't see how anyone would have thought there wasn't a good chance, given McKay's track record and 9th chevron's history of doing so. This episode was a pile of crap.

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                    Originally posted by Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble View Post
                    We and the French still got pushed out in 1939 so it still didn't work fully. Or maybe I am wrong
                    Wasn't France busy preparing a big parade in Paris for the Nazi arrival?

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                      Originally posted by Python View Post
                      Exactly. I was totally expecting the planet to blow. I can't see how anyone would have thought there wasn't a good chance, given McKay's track record and 9th chevron's history of doing so. This episode was a pile of crap.
                      Considering the last two attempts (and success) blew up the respective planets and that they now have the person with the absolute worst judgement in the SGverse in charge, it is a wonder the Langerians didn't shoot them on sight.

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                        Or something catastrophically wrong happened.

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                          Originally posted by morrismike View Post
                          Wasn't France busy preparing a big parade in Paris for the Nazi arrival?
                          I don't know if your being sarcastic or not but if your not they did sort of take Paris without a shot being fired. But they knew the were beat german blitzkrieg was very successful. We and the French were fighting with WW1 tactics the Nazis weren't.

                          And I would just like to point out it's McKay not McCay.

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                            Originally posted by blackluster View Post
                            Because there is no point? I can't recall the Lucian Alliance ever being characterized as fanatic. Their political structure doesn't even seem to feature any kind of religion whatsoever, they are allies of convenience. Why go the suicide bomber route when it is completely unnecessary, both from an universe perspective and from a story telling perspective?
                            I know they've never been characterized that way...as religious fanatics...and I don't ever expect or care for them to be portrayed that way. They already did that with the Ori, but my point is if these are drug dealing warlord thugs are supposed to be taken seriously by me, then I honestly don't believe they'd actually value the life of some pilot over the goal of a mission as big as this one. Why take the chance on a timer? Send someone willing to die or rig the thing to blow on impact as some unsuspecting prole flew it into the Pentagon. Bomb blows up and then Earth starts to take you more seriously and might be willing to negotiate or whatever it is the LA is after.


                            That failed attempt wasn't through any kind of skill or ingenuity on Earth's part, just dumb luck. If you find yourself unable to take undetectable nuclear attacks on your headquarters seriously, then I really don't know what to tell you.
                            I'm talking about how the rest of the galaxy perceives them....hence the comment about making recruiting videos just like the jihadis do. Botched attacks can make you look weak to others watching. Doesn't exactly make a statement if you can't actually blow anything up and cripple your greatest foe. (Actually the writing does somewhat parallel current events as in 1993 the botched bombing of the World Trade Center with a truck bomb eventually led to 9/11 and suicide attacks.) I bet their next plan to attack Earth includes suicide bombers.

                            My intent wasn't to be underhanded, just poking fun. Your opinion on the threat you perceive from the Lucian Alliance is entirely subjective, so there is no point debating it, not for me at least.
                            Which is why I find it highly advisable to stick to the discussion of the subject and not start making comments about the poster...joking or not...since this is in written form and hard to judge what the poster intends by it. That guideline has generally served me well all these years at GW.

                            They're not more powerful, but they're proving themselves to be a damn sight more dangerous. Honestly, SGU's Lucian Alliance make the Ori look like simpletons. Considering the net achievement, the Ori were pretty much a joke when all is said and done.
                            The Ori were a joke because the writers made them a joke. They were given uber weapons, but they had to be kept stupid in order for Earth not to be wiped out. With the LA, it's the opposite. They have to be puffed up and made out to be formidable. I considered the LA episodes in SG-1 to be among the worst because it was laughable that the SGC even bothered with drug dealers peddling magic space corn. How we ever got entangled with them in the first place only adds to my dislike of bringing the LA over to SGU, and then making them a focal point.

                            You misunderstand. I was agreeing with your assertion and following it to a logical end where it is one of the opinions that I feel is a strong voice in Earth decision making. The point I was making is that it is one of many approaches and has its own benefits and drawbacks. The very nature of this kind of political situation is that there is no correct approach, the IOA is only left with bad choices and worse choices. Someone somewhere is guaranteed to lose.
                            I agree. My initial point in making that statement was to point out the ruthlessness in what Earth did on Langara, and that the abandoning of other worlds to the hands of the LA might as be next on their list of things to do. It Earth is so willing to blow up a planet with millions and a source of naquadria, then what do other backwater planets matter to them in the scheme of things. Other than the strategic ones for military outposts/resources.

                            I don't see how it contradicts canon so I don't know what you are talking about.
                            I never said it contradicted canon. But canon does lend itself to how the Langaran political structure operates. Last I knew it was a conglomeration of the different factions that inhabit that planet...three main groups iircc. Those three groups greatly distrusted each other. I'd find it a huge stretch to believe that after so little time they'd all willingly agree to let the LA use their planet to dial Destiny...especially after knowing what happened the previous two times. Hence, if the other groups knew what was going on and didn't agree to it, they'd warn Earth or try to mount a defense against such a plan...attack whoever is holding the gate, etc.


                            Earth knows Langarans were in contact with the LA. The UK and other allies talk to terrorist nations, but I'm not going to suddenly assume that the UK is in bed with Iran just because they exchange communications that I can't read. That is such a huge leap in logic.


                            Well, at least you conceded the covert aspect. The 9th chevron dial attempt is a convoluted issue by itself since one can fashion any number of reasons Earth would get more serious.

                            -One is an internal political aspect, as the visit from the senator and scientist goes, the Destiny mission has become about a bit more than the people stranded there.
                            I always found the convert stuff to be believable as my previous posts in this thread and others attest to.

                            As an example, the US is not going to put a priority on a manned mission to Mars over a military action on Earth. In SGU, Earth is willing to gamble the trust of an ally, the lives of millions, and a valuable resource (naquadria) on some mission to discover an ancient signal.

                            -The other is willing informants. Currently, Earth's ability to impede Lucian Alliance activity has essentially failed. So far the Alliance has managed to launch a rather successful counter-intelligence campaign against Earth, even achieving the unthinkable of brainwashing and turning an Airforce Colonel, a very high ranking officer who has given them goodness knows what already. Earth's sources of intelligence seem wholly ineffective in even stopping cloaked Tel'taks from coming and going from our atmosphere. Given this alarming position, Earth has a gift in a number of Alliance Traitors who they can draw info from. That is an information source that given the current state of affairs is desperately needed.
                            By now, the LA on Destiny should have offered up everything they knew. There is generally a window of usefulness for info sources like them. Once they are out of the loop, what new info could they possibly offer? Conveniently, Varro knew how to defuse the bomb, but he's certainly not worth the lives of millions.

                            -Another reason is technology acquisition. So far the Lucian Alliance are able to successfully jam Asgard beaming and sensor technology which was supposed to be years ahead of the Goa'uld tech that the Lucian supposedly just stole and don't understand. The Alliance are learning at a very alarming rate, neutralizing several of the core technologies that gave Earth an edge in most space conflicts. Letting the Alliance acquire Destiny is a disaster waiting to happen as they seem to have some background info on the ship that Earth doesn't, even with the Atlantis database. If they are able to acquire any sort of technological edge through the Destiny's technology, Earth would be at a major disadvantage.
                            Which is why you work with the Langarans and agree to protect them like they had asked for. But Earth was holding military protection over their heads. "You either let us use your gate to dial Destiny...NOW, or no military protection for you."

                            TELFORD (to Ovirda): The Lucian Alliance wants Destiny. They know that your facility can get them there, and you know damned well that they will not take "no" for an answer.

                            OVIRDA: There's an excellent argument to dismantle the facility altogether.

                            TELFORD: Don't think that that will stop them. They will move in faster. They will do anything to get to the Destiny, and won't give a damn if they blow up your planet in the process.

                            OVIRDA: Then don't let them.

                            WOOLSEY: If we were allowed to show you that Doctor McKay's dialling solution is safe ...

                            OVIRDA: Oh, that is the price of your protection from the Lucian Alliance?

                            WOOLSEY: As a life-long practitioner of diplomacy, you must understand that sovereign states act in their own interest.

                            OVIRDA: The defence of a supply line, for example.

                            WOOLSEY (holding his gaze): For example.

                            OVIRDA: If and when our scientists reach the same conclusion as Doctor McKay ...

                            McKAY: No-no-no-no-no-no. It could take months for them to understand the science.

                            OVIRDA: Then that is how long you will have to wait.

                            TELFORD: The Alliance won't be as patient.

                            OVIRDA: I have no choice but to hope that you are wrong. Good day, gentlemen.
                            IMO always implied.

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                              Just like when shepard was making that deal in the Eye/storm, for that planet to house the lantean evacuees, "its better to be our friends than our enemies".

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                                hahaha other humans matter not, Earth humans lives take precedence over all

                                jk

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