The Political Discussion Thread

[Annoyed]

He seems to be listening to the Trump propaganda again

Better than CNN, (P)MSNBC and the other leftist media.

[Gatefan1976]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOJqQqhX6TA

[aretood2]

ah the tired old "jobs americans won't do" bit....yeah the "young skulls full of mush" (as Annoyed calls it) generation doesn't seem to have much in the way of a solid work ethic but there are still plenty of my generation left (born in the early 80's, "X-ennial," not quite millenial, not quite Gen-X) that still have a solid enough work ethic that we'll take any job, even mucking out stables, if it meant we can pay our bills and put food on the table and a roof over our heads...heck it could be argued that I, as an American here LEGALLY, does a job that not many in today's times would be willing to do....one of which is to go outside, no matter the weather, and gather the carts, which I do by hand....we had one of those cart pusher machines but the number of carts I'm able to do by hand is impressive enough that they actually got rid of the machine (and the job I do at Whole Foods has actually done my waistline a world of good so I can't really complain as it seems like I'm essentially being paid to go to gym)

Citizens don't want certain jobs and that's just a fact. And it's not necessarily the pay either. My dad brings in a respectable salary working as a field supervisor and before then as a laborer. The thing is, that you have to be willing to do the odd hours, lack of holidays, lack of sick/personal days, and unreliable nature of seasonal work. The only citizens that would do that work in large numbers are naturalized citizens. Natural born citizens are extremely rare. It's just a fact, there's no need to ascribe any value judgement on that. Domestic work is universally (that means all over the world) dominated by immigrants and a lot of that is social expectations. Citizens just don't decide to go cleaning in the same numbers as non-citizens.

As for the pay, it's not a doctor's salary and it's not a unionized job salary like you find at unionized factories or skilled labor (think plumbing, electrician etc...). But most farmers (in my area at least) do pay at the limit of what they can afford for workers who are experienced and reliable. Thus my Dad's healthy paycheck. He's not going to buy a Mercedes Benz any time soon but it keeps the lights in his house on and food on the table and leaves enough for some finer things in life like cell phones and vacations.

Retail, construction, and factory are different, that one you do see more citizens (naturalized and natural born) working there.


None of that means that citizens are lazy. That is a gross oversimplification of a nation of over 300 million people. 300 million is a really really big number. Citizens are doing many hard back breaking jobs. It's just that some jobs are prefered by citizens more than others and it's those others that immigrants come in to fill.

1: It's really black and white. Either legal or not legal. There is no middle ground.

In your case, you think both are bad so I don't see what the point is here.

1.5: Our immigration policy is currently written so that it benefits two groups.

A: Big money interests such a Microsoft, Disney and such. That cannot be in question, there are more than enough documented stories of importing programmers who will work for lower wages, just as Disney has been replacing it's workers at its parks with immigrants on a massive scale, even requiring employees who will be replaced to train their replacements.

B: Immigrants themselves; Family-based, where current legal residents can get others in on their coattails.

Not true.

Trump has stated that he wants to change this to merit-based, so that legal status is granted when it benefits the US, not immigrants. The candidate must have skills that we cannot obtain with domestic labor. And the first situation ought to be a no-brainer; companies should NOT be able to import workers to keep wages low.

Under this system Andrew Carnegie would not have been American. We would be missing a few astronauts, many doctors, many lawyers, many teachers and businessmen and police officer and war heroes. Merit-Base means that we lower the pool of people who can contribute in the US and is an admission that social mobility in the US is dead (Do you know what social mobility means? It's a fancy word for "The American Dream" that you or at least your children can attain a better life).

2: That is how its done NOW, by people who don't really want to stop illegals.

That's based on a false dichotomy.

The law of supply and demand says so.

You don't understand the laws of supply and demand. And no, I did not make a mistake by saying "laws".

Consider. We are in the middle of a recovery from a long recession. This happens all the time, normal business cycle.
But for the past 30-40 years, these recession/recovery cycles have defied what had been previously considered normal in that cycle; as the economy surges, businesses have to hire more, and have to compete with each other for workers; offering better pay/benefits.

False. There's a lot more going on in these cycles than you mention. Once again, 300 million is a really really big number with thousands of different variables in play. Focusing on blind intuition is a mistake similar to thinking that if you kick your car it would "fix" itself.

But since the 1980's, these recoveries have been known as jobless recoveries. The corporations, stock market and the rest of the wealthy did well. But the workers got squat; businesses outsourced whatever labor they could to low wage backwaters, so there was little or no domestic hiring, therefore no upward pressure on wages, etc.

You're ignoring the role of taxes and their impact in business growth. You're also ignoring the issue of automation and the conversion from an manufacturing economy to a service economy. This, and other variables, make your conclusion incorrect.

But the current recovery, post Trump era is different. Trump has been making noise about scrapping all this free trade felgercarb. So outsourcing wasn't as big a factor. And guess what? Worker wages are rising, as a direct result of more domestic hiring. Even the local Walmart has a sign in the entrance, help wanted, starting wage $13 & change/hour. They have to have employees, and if they have to compete for them, they have to offer more $.

Free trade that the UK is looking for (and a chief reason behind Brexit). Now, outsourcing has not noticeably decreased at all. You have a handful of high profile kerfuffles about a factory here and there and all of a sudden claim that there's a real large change in numbers.

Obviously, it's in the U.S. worker's best interest to not only stop outsourcing of labor, but to block the importation of workers to take their jobs.

Immigrants aren't competing for Walmart jobs. And that's the biggest flaw here in your logic. Immigrants aren't competing for Walmart jobs. Wages that aren't growing aren't the factory jobs only, but all the jobs out there that immigrants don't compete for. That's what determines the wage increase or decrease. Corporate wages, retail wages and so on have not been growing (and still are not) faster than inflation. You're whole claim of increased wages falls flat on its face here.

[jelgate]

Better than CNN, (P)MSNBC and the other leftist media.

Not true. The media might spin facts. Trump is just making things up

[Annoyed]

ah the tired old "jobs americans won't do" bit....yeah the "young skulls full of mush" (as Annoyed calls it) generation doesn't seem to have much in the way of a solid work ethic but there are still plenty of my generation left (born in the early 80's, "X-ennial," not quite millenial, not quite Gen-X) that still have a solid enough work ethic that we'll take any job, even mucking out stables, if it meant we can pay our bills and put food on the table and a roof over our heads...heck it could be argued that I, as an American here LEGALLY, does a job that not many in today's times would be willing to do....one of which is to go outside, no matter the weather, and gather the carts, which I do by hand....we had one of those cart pusher machines but the number of carts I'm able to do by hand is impressive enough that they actually got rid of the machine (and the job I do at Whole Foods has actually done my waistline a world of good so I can't really complain as it seems like I'm essentially being paid to go to gym)

The young skulls full of mush want to have everything handed to them, because they think we did. Sure, we had didn't have the problems they do, but we had different issues.

But consider the education they've had at the hands of the public schools. Is it any wonder they've got their heads screwed on C-3PO style (backwards)?
And how many of their hot button issues have been directly caused by that education system?

But to be fair, I freely admit it was my generation which screwed this place up. No one is interested in doing what needs to be done to fix it, though. Frankly, I don't think it can be fixed at this point.

[Gatefan1976]

The young skulls full of mush want to have everything handed to them, because they think we did. Sure, we had didn't have the problems they do, but we had different issues.

But consider the education they've had at the hands of the public schools. Is it any wonder they've got their heads screwed on C-3PO style (backwards)?

But to be fair, I freely admit it was my generation which screwed this place up. No one is interested in doing what needs to be done to fix it, though. Frankly, I don't think it can be fixed at this point.

…. And that's why we don't want you in charge. You have already given up, and betrayed those who you hold high. That's why you would not get to the moon now.

[SoulReaver]

ah the tired old "jobs americans won't do" bit....yeah the "young skulls full of mush" (as Annoyed calls it) generation doesn't seem to have much in the way of a solid work ethic

(why does your post appear only now??)

gotcha
man the GOP are so easy to bait lol
you just admitted that your party hardly cares about mericans (except elite classes) any more than it does about migrants

so from the GOP's point you view riddle me this: what's the point of being merican, again? (and if you'll say "the right to vote" I'll say bollox - yours isn't even a representative democracy - as the neocons like to point out - let alone a true democracy)

Is it any wonder they've got their heads screwed on C-3PO style (backwards)?

as opposed to trumpets who lost their screw-on head? (but have many screws lose)

[jelgate]

The young skulls full of mush want to have everything handed to them, because they think we did. Sure, we had didn't have the problems they do, but we had different issues.

But consider the education they've had at the hands of the public schools. Is it any wonder they've got their heads screwed on C-3PO style (backwards)?
And how many of their hot button issues have been directly caused by that education system?

But to be fair, I freely admit it was my generation which screwed this place up. No one is interested in doing what needs to be done to fix it, though. Frankly, I don't think it can be fixed at this point.

You are in denial again.

[Gatefan1976]

Jel is the republican in the room, and no one denies his POV.
What are you annoyed?
Are you a republican, or just a trump fan?
Figure that out, because we on the supposed opposite side can say "yes, this goes to far" or "yes this won't work"
Are the idea's "bad"?
Is universal healthcare a "bad idea"?
Is educating your children a "bad idea"
HOW democrats might want to do things can be bad, that's a given, but do you feel the idea's are bad?
Actually think about it, then think about what trump is doing, and if you are STILL his fan, you have TDS.

[jelgate]

I consider myself more of an independent

[Annoyed]

Jel is the republican in the room, and no one denies his POV.
What are you annoyed?
Are you a republican, or just a trump fan?

Since 1980, I've always either voted for the Republican candidate, or I abstained in the Pres. race that year.
I've held most of my ideas since my teens or early twenty's. Some change over the years, but Ive been firmly ensconced on the right side of the spectrum for a long time. However, beyond that, Trump has an attitude and a manner that I like.

He's not the first example, nor is the left without theirs. Remember Governor Terminator? He leaned to the left, but I liked and respected him. He looked at a problem, decided what he thought he should do about it, and did just that, regardless of the whining from the peanut gallery.

Trump has that same quality; he's not afraid to tell anyone to take a flying leap.

Figure that out, because we on the supposed opposite side can say "yes, this goes to far" or "yes this won't work"
Are the idea's "bad"?
Is universal healthcare a "bad idea"?
Is educating your children a "bad idea"
HOW democrats might want to do things can be bad, that's a given, but do you feel the idea's are bad?
Actually think about it, then think about what trump is doing, and if you are STILL his fan, you have TDS.

I don't object to most of their ideas. Univ. health care is indeed a worthwhile goal.
But there is no way to pay for it.

Of course, education is important. But the existing system is badly broken, and the Democrats want to make it worse.
The problem w/student debt is the cost of the schools, which has risen far ahead of the inflation rate. The people in that industry, at both the primary and secondary level are milking it for all its worth, and as long as the government keep providing the money, the schools will keep on shearing the sheep.

[Gatefan1976]

Since 1980, I've always either voted for the Republican candidate, or I abstained in the Pres. race that year.
I've held most of my ideas since my teens or early twenty's. Some change over the years, but Ive been firmly ensconced on the right side of the spectrum for a long time. However, beyond that, Trump has an attitude and a manner that I like.

He's not the first example, nor is the left without theirs. Remember Governor Terminator? He leaned to the left, but I liked and respected him. He looked at a problem, decided what he thought he should do about it, and did just that, regardless of the whining from the peanut gallery.

Trump has that same quality; he's not afraid to tell anyone to take a flying leap.


I don't object to most of their ideas. Univ. health care is indeed a worthwhile goal.
But there is no way to pay for it.

Of course, education is important. But the existing system is badly broken, and the Democrats want to make it worse.
The problem w/student debt is the cost of the schools, which has risen far ahead of the inflation rate. The people in that industry, at both the primary and secondary level are milking it for all its worth, and as long as the government keep providing the money, the schools will keep on shearing the sheep.

So talk about the actual problem, not the person holding the reigns.
This is your mistake.
You have no real objection to "leftist ideals", you have real concerns about how they can be made to work, and you know what? that's FAIR, and absolutely worth discussing.
So discuss them.

[Annoyed]

So talk about the actual problem, not the person holding the reigns.
This is your mistake.
You have no real objection to "leftist ideals", you have real concerns about how they can be made to work, and you know what? that's FAIR, and absolutely worth discussing.
So discuss them.

They can't be made to work.

Ever hear the phrase 'mother nature always balances her books"?

So does economics. SOMEBODY has to pay for it. And that soebody is the guy who can't avoid paying for it.

[Gatefan1976]

They can't be made to work.

Ever hear the phrase 'mother nature always balances her books"?

So does economics. SOMEBODY has to pay for it. And that soebody is the guy who can't avoid paying for it.

So work it out rather than discarding it.
SOMEONE had to pay for you to go to the moon.
SOMEONE had to pay for the new deal.
SOMEONE had to do all of these things to create the better world you so desperately want to "restore"
But now that you might pay for it, it's too hard?
Come on man.
Is this REALLY the world you want to leave behind?
Is this the words of the KID, brain full of mush who fell in love with Star Trek, saw diversity, equality and acceptance and now want's none of those things?
What about the kid -now- who see's the same hope for humanity as you did then?
Screw them, they are not mine?
I hope the world I leave behind will be better, what do you hope for?

[aretood2]

Since 1980, I've always either voted for the Republican candidate, or I abstained in the Pres. race that year.
I've held most of my ideas since my teens or early twenty's. Some change over the years, but Ive been firmly ensconced on the right side of the spectrum for a long time. However, beyond that, Trump has an attitude and a manner that I like.

Making fun of disabled people is a manner you like?

He's not the first example, nor is the left without theirs. Remember Governor Terminator? He leaned to the left, but I liked and respected him. He looked at a problem, decided what he thought he should do about it, and did just that, regardless of the whining from the peanut gallery.

Are you talking about Arnold Schwarzenegger? He's a republican.

Trump has that same quality; he's not afraid to tell anyone to take a flying leap.

So name calling is the quality you like? Intimidating witnesses? Not paying contractors for services rendered? Commiting fraud? Telling bold faced lies?

I don't object to most of their ideas. Univ. health care is indeed a worthwhile goal.
But there is no way to pay for it.

Yes, yes there is. In fact there are many ways to pay for it. Just ask every other developed and nearly developed country in the world.

For starters, we could change the laws to make doctors and hospitals be upfront about medical costs. Such as providing "menus" of what different procedures cost. Allow for diversity of pricing and remove some barriers insurers have in providing their services across state lines. That alone will lower prices making medical expenses cheaper. Allow for the entry of foreign medical suppliers and pharmaceuticals in order to introduce more competition. Canadian companies would force American companies to drop the hyperinflated prices of things like insulin and epipens as soon as their cheaper products enter the market. Barriers to trade and commerce break the system that is supposed to force down prices and increase quality (a reason why I favor free trade).


Single payer isn't the only way to provide universal or near universal healthcare, I'm not sure why liberals are so attached to that model and I don't think it's the right one for us. But anything is better than nothing...so why not propose an alternative? That's been the GOP's problem this past decade. No alternatives get proposed beyond keeping the status quo of ridiculously overpriced medications, procedures, and supplies. And make no mistake, pharmaceuticals and medical supplies are grossly overpriced here in the US.

Of course, education is important. But the existing system is badly broken, and the Democrats want to make it worse.

And Trump's solution is to put a person in charge of the Department of Education that has zero experience and understanding who doesn't even know the basic fundamentals. I can still remember how she struggled to answer even the most basic questions during her confirmation hearing.

The problem w/student debt is the cost of the schools, which has risen far ahead of the inflation rate. The people in that industry, at both the primary and secondary level are milking it for all its worth, and as long as the government keep providing the money, the schools will keep on shearing the sheep.

What on earth do primary and secondary schools have to do with student debt? In case you forgot, public education is free for everyone.