Unthinkable (223)

[Linda06]

I didn't mind Oliver and Sara together. I just didn't feel like they developed it very well. But as far as Black Canary goes, to me it looks like Laurel's going to be Black Canary next year. While none of the writers have come out and said since the finale that's what's going to happen, one of them (Andrew Kreisberg) said before the finale aired

Spoiler:

that we would know who the true Black Canary is 43 minutes into the finale. And Katie Cassidy (who plays Laurel) has been very excited and talking about working out and saying that she thinks that's what's going to happen. All that to me adds up to Laurel being BC next year.

As far as Sara goes, what bothered me is that this is a woman who earlier in the season said that the killing was destroying her soul. Who took poison rather than go back to that life. Who has struggled to rise above being a killer all season, and in just the previous episode (Streets of Fire) we see her finally seemingly take on the hero's mantle - the Canary. And then in just the next episode she turns around and goes back to that life of being a killer. And if it had been played as a tragic moment - a terrible price she paid to save the city - it might have worked better. But that's not how it was played. It was weirdly played like it was supposed to be a happy moment. Quentin and Laurel are far too accepting for losing Sara all over again. Laurel is almost giddy when she gets the jacket from Sara. Quentin, who knows better than Laurel what Sara's going back to, too easily accepts the situation. It was like the writers thought that we were going to be so excited to see Laurel finally take up her comic book destiny as Black Canary that we wouldn't think too hard about what Sara's going back to. Not only that, but it's Sara who's been through the fire, but Laurel who gets to become the hero, and that really rubs me the wrong way.



I don't think I would mind Olicity if I didn't feel like the writers are just playing the audience. They know Olicity is massively popular so they're using it for the press, but it will be Laurel in the end - I'm almost sure of it. So all the Oliver and Felicity scenes are just a big tease. It's Chloe and Clark all over again. Andrew Kreisberg just a few weeks ago compared Oliver and Laurel to Lois and Clark. And Katie Cassidy has said that she thinks Oliver and Laurel are "soulmates" and that they will be together in the end. (I can't stand those two together). And if they were willing to throw away a season's worth of character development on Sara so that Laurel could be Black Canary just because she is in the comics, I don't doubt that Olicity will be similarly thrown under the bus whenever they decide that Oliver and Laurel must be together again, because you know, they're comics canon.

All this adds up to why I'm not wasting any more time on watching this show. If nothing else, SGA showed me the folly of sticking with a show too long. No point in putting myself through the aggravation.

Oliver goes for anything that takes his fancy at the time. I liked Sarah and she can do better for herself. Plus I didn't think they had that much chemistry.

Laurel has annoyed me since the start, dunno what it is. She just rubs me up the wrong way.

I see your point about Sarah and the LOA. I figured she would have fought tooth and nail to not go back to that life. To be honest I would prefer to have Sarah on the show than Laurel. I don't read the comic books so I dunno what's canon and what's not.

Again Oliver can't be faithful to anyone and I'd hate it to happen to Felicity, I like her and she deserves better. I hope the writers don't screw the charcter over just to advance Oliver's charatcer back to Laurel.

I can understand that what with what happened with SGA

I honestly don't understand the Laurel hate. Every argument against her has been weak or a double standard in my opinion. I kind of knew Sara as the Canary was limited. I think others should have realized that from the start instead of whining about it.

She just annoys me. I'm not sure why. I never read the comic books so I don't know much about the history.

Well quite frankly I thought the writers were smarter than to introduce a far more popular version of an already unpopular character and then expect the audience to be happy when forced to go back to version 1.0. As someone elsewhere said, it's like giving someone a Porsche and then taking it away and expecting them to be happy driving a Ford. I honestly did not think the writers were that stupid, but obviously I was giving them too much credit. It was beyond stupid for them to introduce Sara, make her an awesome kickass Canary, and somehow think that was going to improve Laurel's already low standing with the audience. Bringing Sara on was the worst thing they could have done for Laurel. If they wanted Laurel as Black Canary, they should have just done it instead of pulling the bait and switch with Sara. Nobody likes a bait and switch. Just look at how outraged people were recently at the HIMYM ending.

As for why I don't like Laurel, I think the character has been both terribly written and terribly acted. Katie Cassidy was completely miscast in the part IMO. And I find her scenes with Oliver, Laurel's supposed "soul mate", to be completely cringeworthy, the most recent example being that awful "I know you better than I know my name" scene in City of Blood. Their relationship makes not even the remotest amount of sense. In one episode we see that he got a girl pregnant behind her back, and in the next she's telling him she knows him "in her bones". It makes her look clueless and out of touch with reality. And yet this is supposed to be our show OTP. Why should I root for a couple like that?

Honestly, I could deal with Laurel by herself if they would take two things permanently off the table. 1) her ever becoming Black Canary, and 2) her ever EVER getting back with Oliver. The fear of those two things happening, and the feeling that she is completely unsuitable for either role, is what I believe drives much of the hate toward her character. If she was just a supporting character with no fixed destiny, you wouldn't see the hate you do now.

You're of course welcome to your opinion, but I would appreciate you not sneering at mine.

He cheats on Laurel with her own sister, cheats on Laurel with another girl and gets her pregnant, him and Laurel go behind his best friends back and have an affair. He goes back to Sarah when she's been back in town for 5 minutes after he and Laurel break it off again 5 minutes ago.I mean seriously. Is she really that stupid. I know she probably didn't find out about the other girl but the evidence is there that he doesn't possess the capabilities to be faithful in a relationship. Is she so gullible? It's turning into a soap opera.

[jelgate]

You are being a little harsh Linda. Oliver before the island is a whole different person than after the island. Plus until S2 he thought Sarah was dead. It had been months between Laurel and when Sarah returned.

[garhkal]

(Not to mention that I think what happened with Roy shows that Oliver is kind of a terrible teacher, and it'd be even worse with Laurel because of their history.)

Since Roy had the Mirakru in him, i doubt his failure there was a smack ON Oli's training capabilities.

[Linda06]

You are being a little harsh Linda. Oliver before the island is a whole different person than after the island. Plus until S2 he thought Sarah was dead. It had been months between Laurel and when Sarah returned.

He still can't decide what sister he wants, plus he and Laurel cheated behind Tommy's back, who was supposed to be his best friend. So I don't think he's changed that much where women are concerned. I thought it was weeks between Laurel and Sarah But he still went back to Sarah once he found out she was back so if I was Laurel would I go back to him after al that's happened? HELL NO He's proven time and again when it comes to romantic relationships he can't be trusted and if she does go back to him then she deserves everything she gets for being so gullible.

[jelgate]

He really hasn't pursued Laurel at all in S2. He thought Sara was dead until then. I disagree. All Oliver thought was having sex before the island. I don't see that kind of thought process since he became the Arrow. I show him caring about people on a personal a lot more since the Island. I don't see your switching between sister methodology post island.

[Killdeer]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Jelgate on this one - sorry Linda. I don't see that Oliver has been a cheater since the shipwreck. Before the shipwreck, yeah, he cheated with Sara, the girl he got pregnant, and who knows how many others. But I don't see that he's cheated since then that we know of. While on the island he was with Shado, and then she died. Sara was there for a while, but they never slept together that I recall. He kissed her, right before her (presumed) death on the freighter, but that's as far as they went toward resuming that relationship at that point. After he comes back to Starling City, the first person he gets into a relationship with is Helena, because he feels like she's like him and they can understand each other. But Helena's a little bit further off the deep end than he'd bargained for, and so that doesn't end well. So then a little while later he tries again with McKenna, and that's better except that she's hunting the vigilante and he IS the vigilante, and then she gets caught in the crossfire between him and Helena and her career is destroyed and she ends up leaving town. And it's all bad.

I think right there is when he decides he can't be in a relationship with anyone as long as he's the vigilante/Hood/Arrow. He only sleeps with Laurel in the season finale because he thinks he's about to be done with his "mission" and that he could actually maybe have a relationship. And Oliver and Laurel didn't cheat on Tommy because Tommy and Laurel were broken up at that point. Now that said, it was a jerk thing for Oliver to do, to encourage Tommy to reconcile with Laurel and then decide he wanted to be with her himself. But I don't see it as cheating. And then the Undertaking happens, Oliver disappears back to the island for five months, and when he returns, he and Laurel decide they're better off not together (and oh if only they would stick with that *facepalm*). And after that Oliver isn't with anyone save the brief casual hookup with Isabel in Russia (which I'm sure he deeply regretted when finding out she had been his father's mistress) until Sara. Considering Arrow makes it a point most of the time to stick to real time (if there's five months between seasons, five months have passed on the show), it's about nine months from the time he's with Laurel in the season one finale to the time he gets together with Sara at the end of Heir to the Demon, in which he is with no one at all save the previously mentioned one-time hookup with Isabel.

And I think again with Sara it's the same thing that drew him to Helena. Because of what she's been through, Sara is someone who can understand what he's been through and what he deals with, and he doesn't have to hide or lie to her. I get why they got together. I don't know that I thought the relationship would end up lasting long term, but I was (mostly) fine with it while it did. (I'm not a huge Oliver/Sara shipper, but I've never been against the pairing. I don't know that I'm against any pairing on the show actually other then Oliver/Laurel.)

As far as we know, the only person he ever cheated on was Laurel (and he did that multiple times which is one reason why I think that relationship of any relationship should never ever happen again). But he didn't cheat on Shado, or Helena, or McKenna, or Sara, while in relationships with them. He never had a real relationship with Isabel, and he and Laurel never really restarted their relationship other than that one night. So long story short (too late!), no I don't consider Oliver a cheater anymore. I don't think he makes the best choices in relationships perhaps, but that doesn't make him a cheater.

And I don't really get the sense that Oliver is ever pursuing Laurel while with Sara, or at all really in season two. She is still someone he cares about, but to me it kind of felt like in the sense of something in the past (though that might just be my wishful thinking). Now granted, there were some weird scenes between them in the last two-three episodes, but I didn't really get the sense that he was pining after her, if you get my drift. I'm not sure what the writers intended me to get, but that's not what I picked up. Now where Laurel's head's at I have no idea. But I didn't get the sense that Oliver's just chomping at the bit to get back with her now that she knows he's the Arrow and Sara's out of the way. I just got the feeling he had too much other stuff going on to really even think about it right then.

Now do I think the writers will eventually force them back together? Yes. The Lois and Clark comparison told me that. I'm just not sure if it will be sooner or later.

[Linda06]

eek: KILLDEER, how could you. You know you should always agree with me. After all, I am always right, even when I'm wrong

Personally what I see is, he is selfish, self centred a lot of the time and untrustworthy when it comes to romantic relationships. But that's just my opinion.

He chose Sarah every time as far as I know, he chose Sarah to go with him on the yacht, chose her when crazy guy (forgot his name ) threatened both her and Shado, even though he was in a relationship with Shado at the time. Went back to Sarah when she came back. So IMO Laurel would be crazy to go back to him because the way I see it is that if Sarah does come back to Starling city some time in the future there is a high probability that he will go back to her again and where would that leave Laurel? No, surely this woman isn't that unbelievably gullible and stupid. Especially after Sarah more or less told her that she's done with him so Laurel can have him back if she wants If she does get back with Oliver then my low estimation of her would hit an all time low.

[jelgate]

eek: KILLDEER, how could you. You know you should always agree with me. After all, I am always right, even when I'm wrong

Personally what I see is, he is selfish, self centred a lot of the time and untrustworthy when it comes to romantic relationships. But that's just my opinion.

I would suggest visiting ophthalmologist to have your eyes checked

He chose Sarah every time as far as I know, he chose Sarah to go with him on the yacht,

Again that was the old Oliver who didn't care about anyone but himself

chose her when crazy guy (forgot his name ) threatened both her and Shado, even though he was in a relationship with Shado at the time.

That is unfair Linda. Their is so much more going on than romantic love when a madman points a gun at two people you care about and makes you choose one them has to die. Adrenaline for one is going to cloud judgment

Went back to Sarah when she came back.

That too is unfair. He thought she was dead and then she was on the rum from the League of Assassins.

So IMO Laurel would be crazy to go back to him because the way I see it is that if Sarah does come back to Starling city some time in the future there is a high probability that he will go back to her again and where would that leave Laurel? No, surely this woman isn't that unbelievably gullible and stupid. Especially after Sarah more or less told her that she's done with him so Laurel can have him back if she wants If she does get back with Oliver then my low estimation of her would hit an all time low.

Like always you are wrong Linda I have seen no indication of Oliver leaving a person now just because of someone else shows up. Since after the island Oliver has never cheated or left a person for another person. That is just not Oliver anymore.

[Linda06]

She was on the rum? That can't be good having an assassin on the rum

[jelgate]

Why do you think they are called the League of Assassins? The kill so many people because they are drunk.

[Killdeer]

eek: KILLDEER, how could you. You know you should always agree with me. After all, I am always right, even when I'm wrong

Hahahaha sorry I forgot.

Personally what I see is, he is selfish, self centred a lot of the time and untrustworthy when it comes to romantic relationships. But that's just my opinion.

I don't really see him like that. I think he's a guy that's been through hell and is trying to be a hero, but isn't always doing the greatest job. That said, I haven't always agreed with his choices. I think, for one, how he's treated Thea has been appalling. He ran off and left her for five months after the Undertaking. Her mother had just been thrown in jail - who exactly was looking out for her? And then he abandons her again after Slade kills Moira. I get that both times he was pushed to the breaking point, but he's all the family Thea has left (that he's aware of anyway).

I also think he can be rather astoundingly hypocritical at times - his break with Moira over her secret keeping, when he was planning on keeping the same secret from Thea, was one of the more breathtaking examples.

But I still like him as a character and I think he's trying to do the right thing - he's just not always succeeding. (And I should say I don't actually totally agree with his "no killing at all" stance.)

chose her when crazy guy (forgot his name ) threatened both her and Shado, even though he was in a relationship with Shado at the time.

I firmly believe that Oliver did not consciously choose Sara over Shado. Oliver says that in his feelings of guilt, but that's not what I saw. What I saw was Oliver refusing to choose, and then throwing himself in front of the gun when Ivo pointed it at Sara. I believe he would have reacted exactly the same way if Ivo had pointed the gun at Shado and then Sara would be dead. There was no choice. Ivo tricked him. (And by the way, may I just say how utterly contrived that whole scenario was? I realize they needed a reason to set Slade against Oliver, but surely they could have come up with something less ridiculous than that.)

And I guess I don't see how Oliver and Sara getting back together in Starling City was him somehow choosing her over Laurel. There's nothing to "choose" her over. He and Laurel weren't in a relationship - it's not like she was an option for him to be able to choose. (I just reread that and I'm not sure it makes any sense, but I'm not sure how else to say it.)

If she does get back with Oliver then my low estimation of her would hit an all time low.

I'm not sure it's possible for my opinion of Laurel to get lower, but I agree on them getting back together. She should be singing that Taylor Swift song to him...what are the words? Something like..."we are never ever getting back together, like, EVER."

Why do you think they are called the League of Assassins? The kill so many people because they are drunk.

HAHAHA rofl. .

[Linda06]

Why do you think they are called the League of Assassins? The kill so many people because they are drunk.

That explains a lot

Hahahaha sorry I forgot.

Let that be a lesson to you


I don't really see him like that. I think he's a guy that's been through hell and is trying to be a hero, but isn't always doing the greatest job. That said, I haven't always agreed with his choices. I think, for one, how he's treated Thea has been appalling. He ran off and left her for five months after the Undertaking. Her mother had just been thrown in jail - who exactly was looking out for her? And then he abandons her again after Slade kills Moira. I get that both times he was pushed to the breaking point, but he's all the family Thea has left (that he's aware of anyway).

I also think he can be rather astoundingly hypocritical at times - his break with Moira over her secret keeping, when he was planning on keeping the same secret from Thea, was one of the more breathtaking examples.

But I still like him as a character and I think he's trying to do the right thing - he's just not always succeeding. (And I should say I don't actually totally agree with his "no killing at all" stance.)



I firmly believe that Oliver did not consciously choose Sara over Shado. Oliver says that in his feelings of guilt, but that's not what I saw. What I saw was Oliver refusing to choose, and then throwing himself in front of the gun when Ivo pointed it at Sara. I believe he would have reacted exactly the same way if Ivo had pointed the gun at Shado and then Sara would be dead. There was no choice. Ivo tricked him. (And by the way, may I just say how utterly contrived that whole scenario was? I realize they needed a reason to set Slade against Oliver, but surely they could have come up with something less ridiculous than that.)

And I guess I don't see how Oliver and Sara getting back together in Starling City was him somehow choosing her over Laurel. There's nothing to "choose" her over. He and Laurel weren't in a relationship - it's not like she was an option for him to be able to choose. (I just reread that and I'm not sure it makes any sense, but I'm not sure how else to say it.)



I'm not sure it's possible for my opinion of Laurel to get lower, but I agree on them getting back together. She should be singing that Taylor Swift song to him...what are the words? Something like..."we are never ever getting back together, like, EVER."



HAHAHA rofl. .

That's just the way he comes across to me sometimes *shrugs*

Is Laurel really that unpopular with a lot of folks?

Anyways, I'm not familiar with the comic book canon. Does Roy become a fully fledged vigilante? Does he have a code name? How did Malcolm Merlyn survive being stabbed through the heart? Was he juiced up on the same stuff that Drake used? Will Thea return to Starling City. I think it'd be cool if Malcolm managed to get Thea onside, it would be an interesting twist.

[jelgate]

Linda is often wrong. She forgets this because of her goldfish

I am going to use Batman references to make you understand. If Green Arrow is Batman than Roy will become his Roebin (His name is Speedy) and Merylin is the Joker. The Dark Archer was always the Green Arrow's archnemesis. I can't say much about Thea as she was created just for the show.

[Killdeer]

Ha.

Jelgate is partially right. In the Green Arrow comics, Speedy was to Green Arrow what Robin is to Batman. However, like the Robins, it's a bit more complicated than that. The first Speedy was Roy Harper, who later became Arsenal, and then Red Arrow. The Arrow PTB have recently confirmed that Roy will become Arsenal. The second Speedy was a girl named Mia Dearden. I don't therefore think it's coincidental that Thea's full name is Thea Dearden Queen and that Oliver's nickname for her was Speedy. So Jelgate is partially right that Thea was created for the show because Oliver didn't have a sister in the comics, but I believe Thea is eventually intended to be Speedy.

[jelgate]

I was being simplistic to not confuse Linda. That happens easily.