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    #31
    Originally posted by nivao View Post
    I'm not sure if you know this, I think it was revealed in that episode, but the Wraith are mutated Iratus bugs. Due to feeding off of the Ancients during the war, they somehow mutated to mix human (Ancient) DNA with their own. After thousands of years, if not a couple of million, they mutated into the form we know today. The retrovirus would subdue the Iratus DNA and introduce more human DNA, thus making a Wraith more human.

    I think because the bugs are smaller, they require a simpler metabolism so don't need to completely "drain" a full-sized human to revitalize themselves. Then again, we never really saw any deeper clarification of the bugs' biology to understand them. The Wraith have "evolved" so there would be differences.
    Shep got turned (well almost) into a wraith by being bitten by a bug, so I'm not sure it's a generational evolution thing. It may have been accelerated by Ellie trying to feed on him however, but if that was the case, Ford should have gone full wraith by pumping himself full of wraith enzyme.
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      #32
      Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
      Shep got turned (well almost) into a wraith by being bitten by a bug, so I'm not sure it's a generational evolution thing. It may have been accelerated by Ellie trying to feed on him however, but if that was the case, Ford should have gone full wraith by pumping himself full of wraith enzyme.
      The bugs turned into a humanoid form, not the other way around so still what happened to Shepard is no indication of the evolution of the Wraith.

      Specifically though, what happened to Shepard was unique. He would not have turned into a Wraith, but something closer to the Iratus bug. When Ellie attacked him, she had taken Beckett's experimental retrovirus that should have turned her into a full human but had the opposite effect; she became more like the Iratus bug. She tried feeding off of Shepard, which caused him to receive the enzyme and the mutated retrovirus. He then started to change into something less human and more like the Iratus bug. The flashback of Shepard being fed on by the bug in the earlier episode has no direct relation to this other than to reiterate that the Wraith mutated from the Iratus bugs and that he was attacked by one.

      TL;DR the retrovirus is the cause of Shepard mutating, whereas the regular feeding off of humans slowly evolved the Iratus bugs into the Wraith.

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        #33
        Originally posted by nivao View Post
        The bugs turned into a humanoid form, not the other way around so still what happened to Shepard is no indication of the evolution of the Wraith.
        Are you sure about that?
        My memory is hazy, but I thought the reason the bugs still exist is because the bug is their natural form and the "human hybrid" is an evolution of that.
        Specifically though, what happened to Shepard was unique. He would not have turned into a Wraith, but something closer to the Iratus bug. When Ellie attacked him, she had taken Beckett's experimental retrovirus that should have turned her into a full human but had the opposite effect; she became more like the Iratus bug. She tried feeding off of Shepard, which caused him to receive the enzyme and the mutated retrovirus. He then started to change into something less human and more like the Iratus bug. The flashback of Shepard being fed on by the bug in the earlier episode has no direct relation to this other than to reiterate that the Wraith mutated from the Iratus bugs and that he was attacked by one.
        It's a good theory, but I'm not sold on it.
        Why did the wraith drone leave him there if the change is generational?
        TL;DR the retrovirus is the cause of Shepard mutating, whereas the regular feeding off of humans slowly evolved the Iratus bugs into the Wraith.
        Is that ever mentioned in the show?
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        ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
        A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
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          #34
          Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
          Are you sure about that?
          My memory is hazy, but I thought the reason the bugs still exist is because the bug is their natural form and the "human hybrid" is an evolution of that.
          Isn't that what I wrote? The bugs were their original form and they mutated into the Wraith over the course of some time while the Ancients were colonizing the galaxy. That doesn't mean every Iratus bug mutated. The general consensus is that we humans evolved from monkeys, yet monkeys still exist don't they?

          It's a good theory, but I'm not sold on it.
          It's not a theory as it's clearly explained on the show that Ellia was turning into something more bug and less human, and so was Shepard at some point. Their appearance (makeup) even shows that.

          Why did the wraith drone leave him there if the change is generational?
          If you mean the episode "Thirty-Eight Minutes", I don't know what you mean with that. The drone left Shepard there because he knew Shepard was going to die. What happened in that episode had nothing to do with the bugs evolving into Wraith or Shepard later changing into a human-Wraith/bug hybrid, it merely revealed that the Iratus bugs were what the Wraith originally were like.

          Is that ever mentioned in the show?
          It is revealed in "Thirty-Eight Minutes", and "Instinct" and "Conversion" expand on that with Ellia and the retrovirus.

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            #35
            Then of course there is the matter of interaction between the Wraith and Asgard. I couldn't understand the role of the Asgard puppet in Allies. I thought the Asgard had a specific limited role in SG1.

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              #36
              Nivao is right, I actually rewatched SGA not so long ago and can confirm. The only reason they show this flashback scene of Shep and the bug is to give us a bit of context, but absolutely not related indeed. The first time around Shep seemed very ill, yet no mutation. Second time with Ellie/Ellia (aka Jewel Staite) he literally morphed into a gazunga-big-honking bug.

              I strongly believe that Wraith is the result of an experiment, possibly Ancient rather than *evolution* from the bug which makes no sense whatsoever. First off, it doesn't seem like a human-bug encounter is a friendly one, basically you die. Also who would have children with a Bug-infected human a la Sheppard? Natural evolution is a laughable hypothesis.
              Spoiler:
              I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

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                #37
                Well, the Wraith story line was worth it to produce Michael at least in Season 3 episode 1 which I just saw. And the retrovirus not to provide a feeding source but manpower for fighting the non-gassed Wraith. I never thought I'd like the disgusting Wraith. But right now I like Michael.....Too bad the retrovirus won't work on the females.....I hope Rodney and Beckett have something up their sleeves. In the meantime maybe Michael would be willing to restore humanity and eliminate the Iratus DNA. We see no signs of ethical struggle even for a Wraith, which itself makes me wonder why they don't or can't feed on themselves?!
                Last edited by Davey; 04 September 2018, 03:22 PM.

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                  #38
                  Well, since the Wraith only need to feed once in a few years, they have plenty of time to contemplate on their existence. After all, what do they do either on the hive ships or on their planet(s) in between? Do they go to the beach? Do they watch television or go to a football game? Do they get bored of feeding with a clear climactic orgasmic reaction once in some years?
                  How do they feel about having only one source of "nourishment" in the entire universe?
                  How would we feel if we could only get nourishment from cows which were becoming less available?
                  Do they wonder how they got this way? Do they examine human life and wish they didn't have to live the way they do? Do they find any beauty or charm in their existence of plastic faces and animal growls when there is now a possibility to eliminate the Iratus DNA?

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                    #39
                    Originally posted by nivao View Post
                    Isn't that what I wrote? The bugs were their original form and they mutated into the Wraith over the course of some time while the Ancients were colonizing the galaxy. That doesn't mean every Iratus bug mutated. The general consensus is that we humans evolved from monkeys, yet monkeys still exist don't they?
                    My issue with this is, if a Iratus bug bite is inevitably fatal -HOW- do you get an evolution? The physics of a wraith popping out of a bug mother is beyond belief, the physics of a human coming from a monkey however is not.
                    It's not a theory as it's clearly explained on the show that Ellia was turning into something more bug and less human, and so was Shepard at some point. Their appearance (makeup) even shows that.
                    Sure, but you have the retrovirus playing around with that, in dosage levels even Beckett never intended.

                    If you mean the episode "Thirty-Eight Minutes", I don't know what you mean with that. The drone left Shepard there because he knew Shepard was going to die. What happened in that episode had nothing to do with the bugs evolving into Wraith or Shepard later changing into a human-Wraith/bug hybrid, it merely revealed that the Iratus bugs were what the Wraith originally were like.
                    Exactly, he KNEW Shep was going to die, that's my problem. You can't have an evolutionary path when the mating of genetics is fatal!

                    It is revealed in "Thirty-Eight Minutes", and "Instinct" and "Conversion" expand on that with Ellia and the retrovirus.
                    But it does not work in any real evolutionary sense. It can work in a "aliens" sense of going from one form to another form, but not in a natural evolution.
                    sigpic
                    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
                    A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
                    The truth isn't the truth

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
                      My issue with this is, if a Iratus bug bite is inevitably fatal -HOW- do you get an evolution? The physics of a wraith popping out of a bug mother is beyond belief, the physics of a human coming from a monkey however is not.

                      Sure, but you have the retrovirus playing around with that, in dosage levels even Beckett never intended.


                      Exactly, he KNEW Shep was going to die, that's my problem. You can't have an evolutionary path when the mating of genetics is fatal!


                      But it does not work in any real evolutionary sense. It can work in a "aliens" sense of going from one form to another form, but not in a natural evolution.
                      How do you think evolution works? A human didn't suddenly "pop out" of a monkey. DNA changes over time, it's called mutation, as in the real kind of mutation not X-Men. By feeding off of humans, the Iratus bugs began to blend with human DNA, much like how the retrovirus attempts to override Wraith DNA with human DNA, except that with feeding it happens so slowly (and the retrovirus is, well, a virus that actively attacks Wraith DNA). Slowly, over time, their DNA mutated until eventually, after thousands of years, or a few million, they had become the Wraith as we know them. This didn't happen overnight like with the retrovirus.

                      The bug was feeding off of Shepard, not mating with him (ugh). Shepard would have died, but the bug wouldn't. That feeding could have caused a slight, and I mean a very slight, mutation of the bugs DNA. Not enough to instantly change it into something human, but enough to be passed on to its offspring. If its offspring continues to feed on humans, and their offspring did the same, then their DNA would slowly change to incorporate human DNA. This may not be realistic; since when can something drain the life energy out of someone for food? But the change of DNA is how evolution works; the change of characteristics over successive generations.

                      There is a difference between the evolution of the Iratus bug to the Wraith, and Shepard being being fed off of by a bug and later changing into a half-human/half-bug hybrid because of the retrovirus. These things are not linked except for the retrovirus suppressing or rewriting the Iratus bug DNA with human DNA, thus changing the Wraith into a full human. The virus initially didn't work and resulted in more of the Iratus bug DNA. Thus for both Ellia and Shepard their human DNA began to rapidly mutate (as in the fake kind) into Iratus DNA, making them both closer to the Iratus bug than human. It is that part that is fake as mutation doesn't work that way.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by nivao View Post
                        How do you think evolution works? A human didn't suddenly "pop out" of a monkey. DNA changes over time, it's called mutation, as in the real kind of mutation not X-Men. By feeding off of humans, the Iratus bugs began to blend with human DNA, much like how the retrovirus attempts to override Wraith DNA with human DNA, except that with feeding it happens so slowly (and the retrovirus is, well, a virus that actively attacks Wraith DNA). Slowly, over time, their DNA mutated until eventually, after thousands of years, or a few million, they had become the Wraith as we know them. This didn't happen overnight like with the retrovirus.

                        The bug was feeding off of Shepard, not mating with him (ugh). Shepard would have died, but the bug wouldn't. That feeding could have caused a slight, and I mean a very slight, mutation of the bugs DNA. Not enough to instantly change it into something human, but enough to be passed on to its offspring. If its offspring continues to feed on humans, and their offspring did the same, then their DNA would slowly change to incorporate human DNA. This may not be realistic; since when can something drain the life energy out of someone for food? But the change of DNA is how evolution works; the change of characteristics over successive generations.

                        There is a difference between the evolution of the Iratus bug to the Wraith, and Shepard being being fed off of by a bug and later changing into a half-human/half-bug hybrid because of the retrovirus. These things are not linked except for the retrovirus suppressing or rewriting the Iratus bug DNA with human DNA, thus changing the Wraith into a full human. The virus initially didn't work and resulted in more of the Iratus bug DNA. Thus for both Ellia and Shepard their human DNA began to rapidly mutate (as in the fake kind) into Iratus DNA, making them both closer to the Iratus bug than human. It is that part that is fake as mutation doesn't work that way.
                        Nice theory, although only one (potential) flaw I can see with it. We would need to know the time span between the arrival of the Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy VS the first appearance of a wraith. Millions of years makes no sense to me, which is usually how long it takes for evolution to significantly affect a life form. We know that Ancients seeded life throughout the Pegasus galaxy, question is: was there a race of humans already present on the bug planet prior to the Lanteans arrival?

                        At least in the Goa'uld storyline, TPTB explained it pretty clearly how they went from symbiote to Unas to Humans. I always found SGA had so much storytelling potential but somehow only scratched the surface of these aspects of the show.
                        Spoiler:
                        I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
                          Nice theory, although only one (potential) flaw I can see with it. We would need to know the time span between the arrival of the Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy VS the first appearance of a wraith. Millions of years makes no sense to me, which is usually how long it takes for evolution to significantly affect a life form. We know that Ancients seeded life throughout the Pegasus galaxy, question is: was there a race of humans already present on the bug planet prior to the Lanteans arrival?

                          At least in the Goa'uld storyline, TPTB explained it pretty clearly how they went from symbiote to Unas to Humans. I always found SGA had so much storytelling potential but somehow only scratched the surface of these aspects of the show.
                          I think that area was deliberately left ambiguous. Atlantis left Earth 10 to 15 million years ago, which still has a margin of 5 million years like it's nothing. The Ancients only abandoned Atlantis roughly 10,000 years ago, give or take a few decades or even centuries, before Ra discovered Earth.

                          The hologram, seen in "Rising", indicated they set foot upon a world with a dangerous enemy that quickly began spreading across the galaxy. It never indicated when they discovered that planet, nor if they already were the Wraith as we know them now, or some other kind of "proto-Wraith"; it's more likely that they meant the Iratus bugs instead. We do know that by the time the Ancients abandoned Atlantis the Wraith had become how we know them now (at least their ships look like they do in the present), as seen in "Before I Sleep". That still leaves a gap of at least 10 million years. Todd also once stated that the Wraith as a race were about 100,000 years old.

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                            #43
                            If the hologram is correct, that would mean that the Wraith existed already and that the Ancients had a first contact situation that turned south. So many questions, if there were indeed ''indigenous'' Wraiths already present on the bug planet, who were they feeding on? If there was a human colony, I'd say they would've been wiped out pretty quickly considering that such a small food source couldn't sustain the population. Therefore, they needed new feeding grounds, perhaps the Lanteans were somehow fooled by them and gave them gate addresses so they may spread out across the galaxy.

                            Other option I see is that the Wraiths were already there, they were already advanced enough that they built ships and spread across the galaxy. Still goes back to question 1, on what did they feed exactly? Were those wraiths able to digest food as we've seen with children in the Ellie episode? How did they attain such technological level?
                            Spoiler:
                            I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Is it ever clarified whether in desperation a Wraith can feed on a fellow Wraith, or is it considered against their values and constitutes "cannibalism"??!! Speaking of ships, what is the source of the economic wealth of the Wraith to construct massive ships and weapons? In fact, what is the source of wealth of Earth and Atlantis to create so many bombs, weapons, food sources, structures in the city, etc.? I thought the US government was always complaining they didn't have enough money to maintain the stargate program....For that matter, how many people from Earth on in Atlantis together with some other humans to handle cleaning, cooking, laundry, plumbing, electricity, maintenance, food shipments, etc. etc.??

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                                #45
                                The problem with all this evolution is that the favorable mutations would have been so subtle and gradual that there is no guarantee that any intermediate "species" could have even ever survived.....How would it be possible that the mutating bugs managed to survive among all the rest so successfully over such a long period of time and so gradually?

                                Originally posted by nivao View Post
                                How do you think evolution works? A human didn't suddenly "pop out" of a monkey. DNA changes over time, it's called mutation, as in the real kind of mutation not X-Men. By feeding off of humans, the Iratus bugs began to blend with human DNA, much like how the retrovirus attempts to override Wraith DNA with human DNA, except that with feeding it happens so slowly (and the retrovirus is, well, a virus that actively attacks Wraith DNA). Slowly, over time, their DNA mutated until eventually, after thousands of years, or a few million, they had become the Wraith as we know them. This didn't happen overnight like with the retrovirus.

                                The bug was feeding off of Shepard, not mating with him (ugh). Shepard would have died, but the bug wouldn't. That feeding could have caused a slight, and I mean a very slight, mutation of the bugs DNA. Not enough to instantly change it into something human, but enough to be passed on to its offspring. If its offspring continues to feed on humans, and their offspring did the same, then their DNA would slowly change to incorporate human DNA. This may not be realistic; since when can something drain the life energy out of someone for food? But the change of DNA is how evolution works; the change of characteristics over successive generations.

                                There is a difference between the evolution of the Iratus bug to the Wraith, and Shepard being being fed off of by a bug and later changing into a half-human/half-bug hybrid because of the retrovirus. These things are not linked except for the retrovirus suppressing or rewriting the Iratus bug DNA with human DNA, thus changing the Wraith into a full human. The virus initially didn't work and resulted in more of the Iratus bug DNA. Thus for both Ellia and Shepard their human DNA began to rapidly mutate (as in the fake kind) into Iratus DNA, making them both closer to the Iratus bug than human. It is that part that is fake as mutation doesn't work that way.

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