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    #76
    Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    Because Michael ENGINEERED that system, nature did not.
    No, Michael did not engineer the process I described to you in the part of my post that you quoted. That is how it works naturally. As I've said more than once now, in learning how Michael accelerated the natural process and how he selected for specific traits, we learned how the natural process works.

    He said that he allowed an iratus bug to gorge on a human and he said that it passed on human DNA to its offspring if it laid eggs shortly after feeding. AFTER he allowed the iratus bug to do this he manipulated the hybrid embyro's genetic material to "accelerate" the natural process.

    As I have said to you in a previous post, you're conflating the last two lines that I quoted with the first two. The first two explain how iratus bugs are able to naturally pass genetic material to their offspring. The second two deal with how he manipulated this process to produce humanoid beasties faster and with carefully selected traits.

    What happens when a population cannot defend itself?
    It dies.
    How does a bug get more human DNA if they have killed all the humans?
    Why so you think they couldn't defend themselves? People can build shelters and protections to guard against bitings. All these bugs need is to occasionally find a single careless person and feed on that person under the right conditions for the next generation to hybridize a little further.

    Predators regularly kill their prey in order to survive, but if they are too good at it and, in the process, kill off their entire food supply they would die off. The very existence of iratus bugs demonstrates that their non-human sources of food are able to to maintain sustainable populations and are not driven into extinction by X number of them being fed on and killed each year, so what makes you think humans, with their high problem solving and tool use capabilities would be over hunted by the iratus bugs?

    I did not say "big number", I said overblow. If he can do it, he says a second, if he can't, he says it's impossible.
    The number had nothing to do with his capabilities. Your examples of when he manipulates numbers speaks to my point that it's related to his ego. You did not offer any example of his exaggerating everyday numbers.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
      No, Michael did not engineer the process I described to you in the part of my post that you quoted. That is how it works naturally. As I've said more than once now, in learning how Michael accelerated the natural process and how he selected for specific traits, we learned how the natural process works.
      It would work naturally if there was more and more human DNA to alter the bug DNA, but the bite KILLS people. Bugs can't work a stargate to get more human DNA to eat, once they kill a population, no more infusions of human DNA.
      Michael manipulated the process to achieve a goal because he had the ability to do so, and even his manipulations look nothing like a Wraith. They look more like super mutant hounds from fallout.
      He said that he allowed an iratus bug to gorge on a human and he said that it passed on human DNA to its offspring if it laid eggs shortly after feeding. AFTER he allowed the iratus bug to do this he manipulated the hybrid embyro's genetic material to "accelerate" the natural process.
      No, he repeated that process artificially. He gorged a parent, made a egg, gorged that egg, and gorged another egg and so on.
      As I have said to you in a previous post, you're conflating the last two lines that I quoted with the first two. The first two explain how iratus bugs are able to naturally pass genetic material to their offspring. The second two deal with how he manipulated this process to produce humanoid beasties faster and with carefully selected traits.
      They can pass along traits, absolutely, but if actually developing those traits requires a constant food source, that would not happen.

      Why so you think they couldn't defend themselves? People can build shelters and protections to guard against bitings. All these bugs need is to occasionally find a single careless person and feed on that person under the right conditions for the next generation to hybridize a little further.
      No, and this is my issue.
      People would -Naturally- defend against a threat, which would prevent a bug from getting the required infusion of DNA to evolve to a higher form. It's NOT an "occasional thing", it requires direct intervention.
      Niavo posited that the wraith evolved from feeding on an ancient, or more specifically, an semi-evolved ancient, and I actually agree with him/her.
      Predators regularly kill their prey in order to survive, but if they are too good at it and, in the process, kill off their entire food supply they would die off. The very existence of iratus bugs demonstrates that their non-human sources of food are able to to maintain sustainable populations and are not driven into extinction by X number of them being fed on and killed each year, so what makes you think humans, with their high problem solving and tool use capabilities would be over hunted by the iratus bugs?
      That's backwards.
      I think that BECAUSE of human intelligence, they would stay away from bug planets, and let them die off.
      The number had nothing to do with his capabilities. Your examples of when he manipulates numbers speaks to my point that it's related to his ego. You did not offer any example of his exaggerating everyday numbers.
      I agree it's all about his ego?
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        #78
        Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
        It would work naturally if there was more and more human DNA to alter the bug DNA, but the bite KILLS people. Bugs can't work a stargate to get more human DNA to eat, once they kill a population, no more infusions of human DNA.
        You did see "Thirty-Eight Minutes"? Shepard got bitten by a bug and they took him back to Atlantis. The bugs could have easily spread throughout the galaxy, if they hadn't already, by the Ancients unknowingly allowing them to. They're very resilient, because even multiple gunshots at point blank range did not kill it. Knowing the Ancients they would take the bugs for studying, or take the victims to Atlantis or another outpost for treatment. The bugs could have stowed away on ships or whatever. We just don't have enough information. They could be quite intelligent for all we know. Since they based a lot on the Ancients, their language and basic technology, it's quite possible they learned how to use the gates very early in their evolution. You don't need opposable thumbs to press the big buttons on a DHD. And they definitely had sufficient time to figure out viable addresses, if they didn't already learned them from the Ancients themselves. They would've had more time then the Goa'uld did.

        All we do know is that the bugs eventually evolved into the Wraith. That's what this was all about and that has been proven several times now. All these other questions were never answered but that doesn't mean what did get explained on the show is not possible. A writer doesn't have to explain every little detail, and that would also be costly and time consuming. Especially with sci-fi and fantasy a lot of background is purposefully left open for interpretation. We've discussed what we do know about the Wraith and Iratus bugs and we've explained what that implies, and what other possible paths could be. That's it. Now we're going around in circles.

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          #79
          According to the hologram in the pilot, the Ancients seeded a thousand worlds with human life and then, at some point down the road, they stepped onto a dark world where they encountered a terrible enemy. This implies that the iratus bugs fed off a local population of humans that was self-contained on their homeworld. You have again repeated that the bugs kill individuals, but you have done nothing to say why you think they would be able to kill off the sum total of people living on a planet, which for all we know could have been in the hundreds of thousands or even millions before they spread to the land mass that the bugs were native to.

          You know what has killed people? The plague. It killed a LOT of people and it was difficult to protect against. These are large bugs that can be kept at bay by building structures and fended off with weapons. Not everyone would be successful in doing this all the time. There will always be "stragglers." Bugs will get into poorly designed or damaged structures just as vampire bats do, they will get people who are late getting home, etc. The poorer someone is, the more likely they would be a victim because their resources would be limited and their dependency on outdoor work would be high. This means that the bugs would both have enough people to feed on to continue the hybridization process and there would be enough people who weren't fed on to keep their human population going.

          That balance makes humans a sustainable food source. Humans stop becoming a sustainable food source when the iratus bugs turn into the Wraith and the Wraith develop technology that allows them to pummel human civilization to its meekest level and to harvest humans quickly and efficiently.

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            #80
            Originally posted by nivao View Post
            You did see "Thirty-Eight Minutes"? Shepard got bitten by a bug and they took him back to Atlantis. The bugs could have easily spread throughout the galaxy, if they hadn't already, by the Ancients unknowingly allowing them to. They're very resilient, because even multiple gunshots at point blank range did not kill it. Knowing the Ancients they would take the bugs for studying, or take the victims to Atlantis or another outpost for treatment. The bugs could have stowed away on ships or whatever. We just don't have enough information. They could be quite intelligent for all we know. Since they based a lot on the Ancients, their language and basic technology, it's quite possible they learned how to use the gates very early in their evolution. You don't need opposable thumbs to press the big buttons on a DHD. And they definitely had sufficient time to figure out viable addresses, if they didn't already learned them from the Ancients themselves. They would've had more time then the Goa'uld did.

            All we do know is that the bugs eventually evolved into the Wraith. That's what this was all about and that has been proven several times now. All these other questions were never answered but that doesn't mean what did get explained on the show is not possible. A writer doesn't have to explain every little detail, and that would also be costly and time consuming. Especially with sci-fi and fantasy a lot of background is purposefully left open for interpretation. We've discussed what we do know about the Wraith and Iratus bugs and we've explained what that implies, and what other possible paths could be. That's it. Now we're going around in circles.
            38 minutes requires a jumper to TAKE the bug, the bug CANNOT do it itself.
            The WRAITH use ancient tech and language, the BUGS do NOT.
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              #81
              Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
              38 minutes requires a jumper to TAKE the bug, the bug CANNOT do it itself.
              The WRAITH use ancient tech and language, the BUGS do NOT.
              Are you being intentionally obtuse? Do you read a single line or two and then reply without reading the rest of what someone says? I'm really confused by your responses. His point was very clearly that travelers who were bitten on the iratus bug's planet could carry bugs back through the Stargate with them by attempting to save people who were bitten as the Atlantis expedition did in Sheppard's case. This is a perfectly valid point that you disregarded by misrepresenting what he was saying.

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                #82
                Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                Are you being intentionally obtuse? Do you read a single line or two and then reply without reading the rest of what someone says? I'm really confused by your responses. His point was very clearly that travelers who were bitten on the iratus bug's planet could carry bugs back through the Stargate with them by attempting to save people who were bitten as the Atlantis expedition did in Sheppard's case. This is a perfectly valid point that you disregarded by misrepresenting what he was saying.
                Excuse me?
                His post implied some kind of motive by a bug, to get more DNA, and bugs have NO such motive. I did read it all, I did not misrepresent him, I just pointed out the FLAW in it. There is NO, ZERO, NONE evidence that a bug would follow a victim ANYWHERE, they would just feed where they could. They make WEBS for god's sake, a trap for things that just happen to go past, why would they follow anything?
                Shep got bit, do you think a person like McKay would not CHECK to make sure there were no more bugs?
                Do you think the ANCIENTS wouldn't?
                sigpic
                ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
                A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
                The truth isn't the truth

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                  #83
                  Okay, so you're conflating his two separate points? You initially replied to the top bit about "Thirty-Eight Minutes." In that point he talked about the iratus bugs inadvertently spreading as a result of travelers carrying them through the gate. It's not impossible for even an Ancient to recover a bitten person, bring them through the gate, and lose track of the bug after it's finished feeding, resulting in it being allowed to lay eggs somewhere on this new planet. If that happened, it's more likely that humans were involved, but I can list scenarios where it could happen to Ancients for you if you like.

                  One very obvious problem is that most gates on Ancient worlds are not located in a closed off facility (as is the case on Atlantis). Rather, they are out in the open and a bit of a walk from an Ancient city/outpost. This means that if an Ancient who has been bitten by an iratus bug dies as he's being carried to a city/outpost, the bug has an opportunity to fly off and disappear into the countryside.

                  Moving on: Later on in his post, he talked about them learning how to use the gate "very early in their evolution." It could be worded a little clearer and there should a paragraph break there, but he's referring to proto-Wraith and not actual iratus bugs in that instance. What this means is that we don't know how long it took them to transform to a point where they were able to escape their planet after they started feeding on the initial population of seeded humans. The Ancients might've arrived there when they were very primitive, but smart enough to learn from the Ancients how to use to the gates and from there they could have become a scourge that was very difficult to fully exterminate.

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                    #84
                    I'm not sure this thread had to be moved since the issues related to the Wraith are not limited to their involvement in SGA per se.
                    In any case, there is one other ethical dilemma that has been addressed in Season 2 of SGA by Michael himself ("Do I have a disease that needs a cure?") and I hope is elaborated. The idea of the retrovirus ignores the fact that the Wraith are not "humans infected by a pathogen that made them into Wraith." They are essentially bugs who absorbed some human DNA. The injection of the retrovirus does not eliminate this fact. They are merely now bugs who bugginess has been suppressed. Thus, though they are in human form they are really NOT actually humans. This is an ethical quandary because in all ways they seem to be humans....
                    Though I am neither an ethicist or biologist, I would certainly oppose letting these Wraith mingle among humans and even have children with humans to pass along whatever Iratus bug DNA they have. The only benefit in such a situation is that they need a daily dose. Thus, then can never escape their Wraithness. But what if they ended up like Michael in a position where the retrovirus was unavailable?! The danger is too risky.
                    Beyond that as I mentioned earlier, it is impossible that creatures engaged in interplanetary travel with such fancy technology over hundreds of years could not find a way to seek out a permanent solution, though I am not sure this would even satisfy me ethically.

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                      #85
                      evolution, intelligence, new life.....

                      anyways, the wraithe would have made a almost better villain if they were still that early proto barbarian race useing thegates and their were actually some sort of off shoot human/ancient hybred race


                      the hybred human/ancient race could have been acting as a sort of combination galaxy police and wraithe/vampire hunters who would constantly be paranoid and travelling planet to planet while dealing with other issues, for the sake of argument say they do not have or use much in the way of ancient technology, but that is due to the ancients not trusting them with it when they left because they are so focused on hunting the wraithe, could have been sorta cool, but then youd still need a reason for hte ancients to have packed up and left etc.... perhaps the ori had launched some sort of automated machines to hunt them down that followed them out of the galaxy back to hte milky way and they lead them into a clever trap to destroy them but didnt risk going back to the milky way to protect it since the machines hunted their technology signals etc

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                        #86
                        Did anyone notice the mistake in Condemned when the Wraith told the magistrate "when our two peoples (I don't remember if he said people) diverged." This suggested that originally the humans and Wraith had originated from the same species, which of course is not true at all.

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                          #87
                          What happened if a Wraith had his right hand amputated and couldn't feed?

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                            #88
                            Another Wraith should be able to feed that individual in the same way that Todd restored Sheppard's life force in "Common Ground." Todd hinted as much in that episode:

                            WRAITH: The gift of life is reserved only for our most devout worshippers ... and our brothers.

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                              #89
                              Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                              Another Wraith should be able to feed that individual in the same way that Todd restored Sheppard's life force in "Common Ground." Todd hinted as much in that episode:
                              Xaeden, meaning that other Wraith would have to give up his/her own life force for that unfortunate Wraith and then feed again for his own benefit. How compassionate and altruistic. ;-) I supposed they would have had drives of their version of the Red Cross!
                              "Join the Wraith Association for Your Unfeedable Brethren! Contribute your life force today! Save your fellow Wraith twice a year and enjoy an added feeding at no extra cost!"
                              Last edited by Davey; 16 September 2018, 07:18 AM.

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                                #90
                                Technically, any scientist/queen can just order a drone to give them the gift of life and they'd do it out of blind obedience. If a higher class Wraith was the only one available to do it in a specific instance, whether it actually happened would probably be less about altruism and more about the wounded Wraith's value to the a collective. Queens and scientists with specific knowledge would be less likely to be left to die, I would assume.

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