Alteran-Ori Conflict: Impossible? (AOT SPOILERS)

[Darren]

When we're looking at the original Alteran-Ori feud and the creation of the Ark millions of years ago, you have to put the whole idea of ascension out of your mind. That happened far, far later, independently for both groups.

When the Ark was created they were both offshoots of the same, human-like species. The Ori became fanatical and persecuted the Alterans. The Ark was originally created and programmed to convince them this was wrong.

It's probable that this device would have never worked on the Ori once they ascended. But when they created and started influencing human followers, these mortal beings could be influenced by the Ark. It would seem that the programmed "truth" was not "The Ori are false gods," but more generic, like "It is wrong to persecute others to enforce your religious beliefs."

That sort of message would have been appropriate for the pre-ascension Ori millions of years ago, and would work on their followers today (without completing obliterating Origin as a peaceful religion).

[Ripple in Space]

When we're looking at the original Alteran-Ori feud and the creation of the Ark millions of years ago, you have to put the whole idea of ascension out of your mind. That happened far, far later, independently for both groups.

When the Ark was created they were both offshoots of the same, human-like species. The Ori became fanatical and persecuted the Alterans. The Ark was originally created and programmed to convince them this was wrong.

It's probable that this device would have never worked on the Ori once they ascended. But when they created and started influencing human followers, these mortal beings could be influenced by the Ark. It would seem that the programmed "truth" was not "The Ori are false gods," but more generic, like "It is wrong to persecute others to enforce your religious beliefs."

That sort of message would have been appropriate for the pre-ascension Ori millions of years ago, and would work on their followers today (without completing obliterating Origin as a peaceful religion).

Possible. Or maybe Janus just reprogrammed it between the Alteran split and Daniel finding it.

[Mister Oragahn]

When we're looking at the original Alteran-Ori feud and the creation of the Ark millions of years ago, you have to put the whole idea of ascension out of your mind. That happened far, far later, independently for both groups.

When the Ark was created they were both offshoots of the same, human-like species. The Ori became fanatical and persecuted the Alterans. The Ark was originally created and programmed to convince them this was wrong.

It's probable that this device would have never worked on the Ori once they ascended. But when they created and started influencing human followers, these mortal beings could be influenced by the Ark. It would seem that the programmed "truth" was not "The Ori are false gods," but more generic, like "It is wrong to persecute others to enforce your religious beliefs."

That sort of message would have been appropriate for the pre-ascension Ori millions of years ago, and would work on their followers today (without completing obliterating Origin as a peaceful religion).

It is evident that the message would need to be fitting for both periods.
That said, considering that they were brainwashed, why would their faith in their gods, still there but now pussyfied, disappear?

Would someone stop believing in God just because he decides, one day, not to hurt in the name of his god anymore?

No.

This is setting an awful false dilemna, in that either you have faith in gods but you're a lunatic extremist, or you're not a lunatic extremist, but then you don't believe in those gods at all.

The only way for this to work would be to convince the Ori pawns that they must not, in a way or another, believe in the Ori... faith powers them (an exploitation of Bernard Werber's story iirc, just with much less style and maturity).

The only way to weaken the Ori or Adria is to erase the faith, not to change its ways.

[Gibsnag]

the Ark was not made to be used against ascended beings it was meant to make
the followers of Origin believe something else. Even Daniel doesnt know what that something else is. it is probably used make the followers believe the same things the alterans believed. there would be no need to stop the followers from worshiping the Ori as gods since neither group had reached ascension

That was how I interpreted it as well.

The fact that the Ark of Truth was useful in defeating the Ori was simply a by-product of the fact that the Ori used people's belief to gain power. The Ark was just supposed to stop the followers of Origin from having faith, but to accept what is basically the scientific method.

Once it was used, it didn't kill Adria but made her vulnerable to Morgan's attack because her power was depleted.

The way I've interpreted the whole 'Origin' thing is that when the Ori / Ancient split occurred everyone was human and non-ascended. Origin was simply a religion (named 'Truth', and which religion doesn't claim to be the truth?) which the Ori followed. The Ancients left and the Ori went about their business, eventually (whenever) found out how to Ascend and did so. They then preceded to create human followers in their pre-Ascended images to use as batteries. I may have missed something or got it completely wrong, but it seems to make sense for me.

[Mister Oragahn]

That was how I interpreted it as well.

The fact that the Ark of Truth was useful in defeating the Ori was simply a by-product of the fact that the Ori used people's belief to gain power. The Ark was just supposed to stop the followers of Origin from having faith, but to accept what is basically the scientific method.

Once it was used, it didn't kill Adria but made her vulnerable to Morgan's attack because her power was depleted.

The way I've interpreted the whole 'Origin' thing is that when the Ori / Ancient split occurred everyone was human and non-ascended. Origin was simply a religion (named 'Truth', and which religion doesn't claim to be the truth?) which the Ori followed. The Ancients left and the Ori went about their business, eventually (whenever) found out how to Ascend and did so. They then preceded to create human followers in their pre-Ascended images to use as batteries. I may have missed something or got it completely wrong, but it seems to make sense for me.

The only message that would be atemporal and work both in the past and present can only be this:

Origin is bull.

Formidable eh?

[RepliVeggie]

I was under the impression that there was the Ori the Alterans and humans they had created already. The Alteran said that the Ori were amassing an army to destroy them. This sounded to me that they were calling there followers to fight. That the Ori were just humans manipulating the followers for whatever reason. Witiher pre-ascension the Ori thought Origin was right or they were just using it to manipulate people.

It seemed to me that Morgan might have reprogrammed it to do the new job.

[jenks]

I was under the impression that there was the Ori the Alterans and humans they had created already. The Alteran said that the Ori were amassing an army to destroy them. This sounded to me that they were calling there followers to fight. That the Ori were just humans manipulating the followers for whatever reason. Witiher pre-ascension the Ori thought Origin was right or they were just using it to manipulate people.

It seemed to me that Morgan might have reprogrammed it to do the new job.

The Alterans and the Ori were both part of the same human civilization. The Ori were religious fanatics and were preparing for war, so the Alterans left. The Ori never created more humans to worship them until after they ascended.

[-PITBULL-]

The timeline doesn't add up in this MOVIE at all ...

But this is what i feel it would have been like ...

ORI & ALTERANS - Both where the same race ( Like Humans today ) But over time created there own GROUPS ( Like we have on Earth ) .

ORI - Begin a religious group wouldn't want nothing to do with SCIENCE .

ALTERANS - The group that believed that ever thing could be answered in some way wanted ANSWERS ...

ORI & ALTERANS -At some point these two groups where working together for TRUE enlightenment , One with the Universe . But could have a difference on how to achieve it .

ALTERANS - Could have ben designing a system to let them Ascend with out true enlightenment . Witch they do have some evidence of that on other planets .

ORI - Begin of a faith group wanted nothing to do with it and wanted true enlightenment , but was having a hard time with it cause they had anger in there minds cause of the Atlerans , and there device they wanted to build ...

At some point both groups could have made it , they could have Ascended to this HIGHER PLAIN . But at this point they both found out there weren't the only ones to Ascend and weren't the first to Ascend .

The Others , could have told them the Rules and how it works up in this new world they where living in , but the Hate that the ORI had was still there , and could have gone on there own to try to take over there HOME Galaxy and to take out the rest of the Atlerans that lived in the ORI Galaxy .

This is when the Battle might have started , At the same time this could be where the First Ascended Alteran might have helped out , and told there brothers about the Ori intentions on take over there home galaxy . The Ascended Alterans could have helped there Bothers by Shielding them from the Ori while they built a way to get out of that galaxy .

This is why over the millions of years the ORI couldn't find the Alterans . A few of the Alterans left in the Ori galaxy might have wanted to help there Brothers tha might have falling to the Ori's hands and made them think they where GODS , This might be where the Ark of Truth came from .

ORI - Where trying to take control but couldn't convince everyone that they where GOD , but could convince the ORI that couldn't Ascend that they where gods , and if they believed in them as GODs , one day they would help there Brothers Ascend to the Heavens with them ...

ALTERANS - They knew the truth from there BROTHERS warnings and wanted to help the others see the truth , Might have even talked to them and tried to convince then that they weren't GODs , but the Ori could have been telling them about False truths or something like that . Thats when the Alterans turned to using the ARK of TRUTH , but at the last min had to leave or would have falling in to the hands of the ORI .

Or something like that .. LOL

[Sauron18]

I really do hope we get more official story about the Ori from interviews, there's a lot of stuff that is simply not clear enough:

What were the basics of their religion?

What sort of technology did they have?

When did they ascend?

What sort of society did they have?

How many of them were there?

All these kinds of things and more which are slightly touched upon. We get hints, and we can also tell several things from logic or watching the show, but not much.

[JohnDuh]

It's simply bull****.

It supposedly reveals a truth (spades of lolz for you) which the creator of the Ark couldn't even know anything about, since there would be no argument.

No, its just marketing. It stops them from believing them.

[Erak the Lantean]

And A bigger question: Did the Alterans that were left in the Ori home galaxy start the anti Ori underground?

Did the combined race control other planets other than just celestis?

WHERE IS THE FREAKING ORI GALAXY!?

[jenks]

What makes you think any Alterans stayed behind?

[RepliVeggie]

Theres no evidence one way or another that there were only the Alterans/Ori and normal humans or not. Maybe it will be touched upon in an interview. I don't think there were any ascended Ori or Alterans at that point. As for how far the Ori galaxy is. I think that likely the Alterans weren't extremely far away. We know that Ida is very close to MW. And Pegasus is maybe 10x as far away as Ida. I think the Ori galaxy is likely millions of times as far away from MW as Pegasus. The Alterans would flee somewhere they fought the Ori could never find them. Also the use of a supergate was obviously needed to get to MW. So the distance had to be immense.

[jenks]

Theres no evidence one way or another that there were only the Alterans/Ori and normal humans or not. Maybe it will be touched upon in an interview. I don't think there were any ascended Ori or Alterans at that point. As for how far the Ori galaxy is. I think that likely the Alterans weren't extremely far away. We know that Ida is very close to MW. And Pegasus is maybe 10x as far away as Ida. I think the Ori galaxy is likely millions of times as far away from MW as Pegasus. The Alterans would flee somewhere they fought the Ori could never find them. Also the use of a supergate was obviously needed to get to MW. So the distance had to be immense.

The Ori and Alterans were normal humans.

[Sauron18]

An update on certain questions, from RC's video interviews in the Stargate MGM homepage:

Someone asked about Amelius & the stargate designs, and whether he truly was the Alteran who designed them, as well as how this made sense with the Ori having Stargate technology as well.....

RC confirmed that Amelius was the origin of the stargates (if not the creator, at least the first to go there) and that the Ori gained their knowledge of the stargates when they ascended.

So I guess this implies the Ori had little to no tech before their ascension, and that all their amazing Ancient-level technology comes from knowledge gained from ascension....