The Conference Room-A Thread for Season 4 Peace Talks

[bluealien]

In some ways I can understand people wanting to have a place to vent their frustrations about what they don't like about the show, but after a while I just don't see the point. What can be achieved by this?. If changes are made and we are not happy with them - what good comes out of constantly complaining about them. If the show offers you nothing whatsover to look forward to, why continue to discuss it? I can understand it being difficult to move on and let go of what you enjoyed about the show,but why begrudge other fans who are still looking forward to the show,and have accepted the changes,and are willing to give them a chance. Why blame certain characters for just being part of a show and accuse them of causing the downfall of SGA. I doubt very much whether any one character could be blamed for the downfall of the show, should that happen - if the show does get cancelled it will be a combination of many things, including lack of promotion and dire scheduling.

The show is struggling at the moment and tptb felt it necessary to make some changes to improve it and take it in a new direction. If nothing had been done then the show would probably have been cancelled anyway. Better writing all round at times could definitley have served all the characters on the show better,but would it have been enough to improve ratings or bring in more viewers. At the end of the day the show was beginning to flounder and I'm sure there will be lots of different opinions as to why it was, and even more suggestions as to what it "needed" to improve, or what it didnt need - but at the end of the day we are not the showrunners and cannot make these decisions, so we either have to accept the changes the ptb are implimenting or decide, possibly a bit prematurely that we don't want anything to do with these changes.

If we accept the changes and are willing to give the show a chance then I don't see anything wrong with being excited about spoilers for season four or looking forward to certain story lines for our favourite characters - or looking forward to our favourite character joining the show.

I can also sympathise with fans who are loosing their favourite characters and who are upset by these changes, but what I can't understand is taking their frustrations out on certain characters or getting upset with fans who are looking foward to the show. Also posting that they hope the show gets cancelled !! why? so we can all be miserable together. Would that make the unhappy fans happier to see that noone gets what they want?. If your favourite character is not featured in an episode does that make the episode automatically terrible. Would Sunday or First Strike have been considered good eps if certain aspects had not happened. ie Carson not getting killed and Weir not getting injured (which may be the reason for her departure).

So for some the absence of certain characters is enough of a reason to not watch and also to dismiss the possibility of the episode being any good with the remaining characters - who have also been around for 3 years.

So the dynamic may change but it may be just as good. How can we know until we watch. I know it won't make up for the disappointment of loosing a fav character but constantly saying that season four will be crap or SGA will be cancelled because of these changes, doesn't seem to be at all productive -

If we only watch for ONE character or just one aspect of the show then if we know that we are not going to get this - why hang around to bemoan something that is not going to happen. What good can come of it, or how can it make us feel any better to constantly surround ourselves in negativity. If you were excited or looking forward to something would you enjoy having someone constantly complain about it without having even seen it? I watch a show to be entertained, and as soon as it stops doing that for me I will stop watching and move on - but that doesn't mean that I would expect other to feel the same - if the show entertains others then why would I want the show to end just because I am not getting what I want out of it.

[Mandysg1]

In some ways I can understand people wanting to have a place to vent their frustrations about what they don't like about the show, but after a while I just don't see the point. What can be achieved by this?. If changes are made and we are not happy with them - what good comes out of constantly complaining about them. If the show offers you nothing whatsover to look forward to, why continue to discuss it? I can understand it being difficult to move on and let go of what you enjoyed about the show,but why begrudge other fans who are still looking forward to the show,and have accepted the changes,and are willing to give them a chance. Why blame certain characters for just being part of a show and accuse them of causing the downfall of SGA. I doubt very much whether any one character could be blamed for the downfall of the show, should that happen - if the show does get cancelled it will be a combination of many things, including lack of promotion and dire scheduling.
<snip>

I have been on both the anti and pro sides. Pro for Atlantis and Anti S9 and 10 in SG1. An anti thread is a good idea for people to discuss what they don't like about the show, without offending those who do. Many posts we have made in the Anti S10 thread have been of constructive critism. Also people and I shall say "of like minds" for lack of a better term also go in there to get opinions of upcoming episodes others have seen but they haven't yet. I usually don't post in the episode threads because I know many posters get upset with opposing views, so I post where I feel comfortable...and yes we have also said what we liked about the episode as well as disliked. As posters if we categorize ourselves as a Pro or Anti we shouldn't be going into the opposite threads for Pro or Anti only and posting our views, it just not nice and is OT for that thread. It's okay to read them to get ideas of what people are thinking, but it's not a place to post an opposing view.

[SG13-NightOps]

Spoilers within

I had all these replies to other posts worked out - but instead I shall post this.

The cause of the "Fan war" is everyones need to reply. Why?

I mean, especially when we are dealing with comments based solely on speculation. "The ratings will go up/down". If someone is using such unreliable information to argue their point, what makes anyone think their logical or sometimes equally illogical reply is going to change anything. If we were to discuss this on facts alone - there is not going to be a great deal to say.

S4 is being filmed now
Carter is in S4
Weir is recurring in S4
Carter is in command of Atlantis.
Keller is the CMO
Carson is coming back from the dead. (2 Episodes)

Then we have the arguments for and against.

Carter will bring all the other SG1 stuff and make SGA, SGA-1. Assumption.
Weir is being dumped. untrue - we know she is in 4 eps of the first half.
The ratings will go down/up. Assumption.
Carter will/wont steal screen time. Assumption.
Carter will make McKay a drooling idiot. Assumption.


Perhaps if all the assumptions were left out of it, and it was based on facts alone - no one would feel the need to jump in and defend their position.

What would definately keep me from replying is if when people say "SGA fans will be" - they prefix that with word 'Some'.

[cshawzye]

Perhaps if all the assumptions were left out of it, and it was based on facts alone - no one would feel the need to jump in and defend their position.

What would definately keep me from replying is if when people say "SGA fans will be" - they prefix that with word 'Some'.

I liked what you posted. And I definitely agree with most of what you've said. The only thing I would say is that sometimes peoples assumptions are based on past experiences which ends up lending a little bit more credibility and/or believability to specific arguments. For example, the assumption that Carter will turn McKay into a drooling idiot. Yes, it's completely true that that is totally an assumption. But, for some fans, it's an assumption based in past interactions between the characters in episodes of SG1. Although this may not happen in season 4 I think it's something that some fans may be worried/concerned about simply based on previous their individual experiences with these two characters in the past.

And I definitely agree about the need to prefix with the word "some" (or something similar). I'm not sure the problem so much lies just in the assumptions that people make. But in the sweeping generalizations that follow those assumptions. If a person from an "anti" thread believes x about what Carter's interactions will be, it doesn't mean that every other person who participates in the "anti" thread feels the same way. And vice versa. Similar points of view are not necessarily identical points of view.

Then again, that's the problem with speculation. There's nothing to really do but assume. The only solid facts that are out there are in the form of spoilers that are intentionally vague.

[SG13-NightOps]

I liked what you posted. And I definitely agree with most of what you've said. The only thing I would say is that sometimes peoples assumptions are based on past experiences which ends up lending a little bit more credibility and/or believability to specific arguments. For example, the assumption that Carter will turn McKay into a drooling idiot. Yes, it's completely true that that is totally an assumption. But, for some fans, it's an assumption based in past interactions between the characters in episodes of SG1. Although this may not happen in season 4 I think it's something that some fans may be worried/concerned about simply based on previous their individual experiences with these two characters in the past.

And I definitely agree about the need to prefix with the word "some" (or something similar). I'm not sure the problem so much lies just in the assumptions that people make. But in the sweeping generalizations that follow those assumptions. If a person from an "anti" thread believes x about what Carter's interactions will be, it doesn't mean that every other person who participates in the "anti" thread feels the same way. And vice versa. Similar points of view are not necessarily identical points of view.

Then again, that's the problem with speculation. There's nothing to really do but assume. The only solid facts that are out there are in the form of spoilers that are intentionally vague.

Well the reason I call the Carter/McKay part an assumption, is everyone is forgetting about one very important factor. Katie the Botanist. JMs blog stated we shall see more of them.

[cshawzye]

Well the reason I call the Carter/McKay part an assumption, is everyone is forgetting about one very important factor. Katie the Botanist. JMs blog stated we shall see more of them.

Just curious, as I don't quite follow. Do you mean Katie would be a mellowing kind of factor for Rodney that might trump his interactions with Carter and change them in some kind of way?

[jenks]

Rodney usually wants to get into Carters pants, but now he has a girlfriend.

[SG13-NightOps]

Just curious, as I don't quite follow. Do you mean Katie would be a mellowing kind of factor for Rodney that might trump his interactions with Carter and change them in some kind of way?

I have no idea. I do know that we will see more of Rod and Katie - so speculation could lean heavier towards non "Drooling Carter Fan" rather than the opposite. But she is an unknown quantity that takes the McKay/carter interaction deeper into the assumption catergory.

[cshawzye]

I have no idea. I do know that we will see more of Rod and Katie - so speculation could lean heavier towards non "Drooling Carter Fan" rather than the opposite. But she is an unknown quantity that takes the McKay/carter interaction deeper into the assumption catergory.

Ah, ok. Makes more sense now.

[Killdeer]

So glad to see things seem to be peaceful. Had long trip today, and am exhausted right now. So, just making sure things have not exploded yet. I'm curious... do people think progress is being made, or too soon to tell?

Bye now *waves*

[PG15]

I don't know; today felt a little calmer than yesterday.

[Alipeeps]

I thought this thread wasn't about explaining why you are "Pro" or "Anti" because then that leads people to want to respond/explain their position and we end up derailing into the same old Pro/Anti argument that this thread is supposed to be trying to prevent/heal?

And applauding someone for expressing/explaining the "Anti" opinion is not really gonna help things either?

My thoughts on the whole fandom division thing..

First off, I get that people have concerns over the show and the changes being made to it. I have my own concerns and I have had my little "Anti" moments here and there and posted, "Why are they making these changes?!!" rants here and there. And I also understand that, whether you are "Pro" or "Anti", it's nice to have somewhere to post and share your sentiments with like-minded folks who understand how you feel. So I get the need for an Anti thread and a Pro thread.

I'm also in favour of analysis and discussion and feel that all opinions should be welcomed in general discussion threads.. that goes for Episode Discussion threads and the more recent Discussion/Speculation threads for Season 4 episodes. However, I do feel that the Discussion/Speculation threads for Season 4, though not specifically labelled "Pro" threads, are by their nature slanted towards the positive... after all, wanting to discuss and speculate on the episodes is kinda indicative of an interest in the episodes?

I think - please correct me if I am wrong - that probably the majority of "Anti" fans are people who have varied concerns about aspects of the show and the changes made, and wanting to discuss those concerns is perfectly valid and I'm all for that kind of discussion. But.. there also seems to be a small group of "Anti" fans whose opinion is just blanket negativity - they have decided that the show is/is going to be crap, they are determined not to watch it and feel that, effectively, the show is over. Now, they are perfectly entitled to that opinion and are welcome to discuss it and post it as much as they like in the appropriate threads - I personally, however, don't feel that the Episode Discussion/Speculation threads are appropriate for those kind of sentiments. Saying "It's going to be crap" is not discussion or speculation. It is one thing to discuss aspects of the episode and explain your concerns and why you think this is not going to be a good thing ("I think this is going to be not good because..." or "I'm concerned that this aspect of the ep is not going to work well") - it is another to just make blanket negative statements to the effect that the whole show is crap and everything is going to be crap, with no explanation of what your specific concerns are and no willingness to debate the matter. This is what I see *some* posters doing and I think this really does not help the divisiveness in fandom right now.

I can't help but feel that if you don't like the show anymore and have decided not to watch Season 4, they why would you want to read/discuss spoilers/information about those episodes? To me, that seems kinda like you're torturing yourself. If you truly believe the show is crap/going to be crap from X point onwards and nothing you read about the show or the future plotlines etc etc is ever going to change that opinion, then why spend your time reading about the plotlines etc that you have already decided are going to be awful? To go into those threads and post blanket negative statements does come across, to me at least, as wanting either to ruin other people's enjoyment of discussing the spoilers or to make sure that everybody knows how much you dislike the show - neither or which is productive or conducive to a friendly fandom.

Posting such generalised negativity, with no willingness to discuss or support your statement, in the more general threads does come across as trying to derail the thread/spoil things for those who are not so comprehensively negative. Just because people post "Pro" opinions in the discussion threads does not mean they are blindly happy and accepting of every aspect of the show and the changes made to it.. as I said, I myself still have concerns (and, for example, would rather not have Carter in SGA)... but merely that there are still aspects of the show they enjoy and are looking forward to and they are perhaps being optimistic in choosing to wait and see how the areas they have concerns about work out. I would like to think that most fans, whether they consider themselves "Pro" or "Anti" are willing to discuss the show constructively and look at both positive and negative aspects... it is the hardcore element who don't want to discuss but rather state their opinions as fact (whether that be, "It's all bad! End of story!" or "It'll all be great, no matter what!") that result in bad-feeling and animosity. You can't have a discussion with someone who refuses to even acknowledge that your opinion has any merit and that causes frustration and arguments.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not all "Anti" fans are 100% against the show/the changes and not all "Pro" fans are 100% happy and blithely accepting of the show/the changes. And we need to accept that and accept that people have differing opinions. Where I find the animosity sparks is when people post 100% polarised opinions - and that goes as much for "Pros" as "Antis". Posting "the show is crap, it's all gonna be awful" is not helpful and does not engender fruitful discussion.. and neither does posting "the show can do no wrong, everything will be wonderful".

What I personally really don't understand though is the stance of some of the 100% negative posters. I have seen some people posting that they hope the show gets cancelled. Now how can that be anything but divisive? If you no longer like the show and don't wish to watch anymore then that's your choice and your prerogative. But to say that, because you don't want the show to change and don't want to see it with the changes in place, nobody else should get to see it either? I just find that a very difficult stance to justify and I feel that statements like that can only cause division and anger within the fandom.

I've waffled an awful lot here and I'm still not sure I've adequately expressed/explained my feelings on the subject but, for what it's worth, there they are. I think at the end of the day we need to simply be accepting of the fact that people do have opinions different to our own, that we won't be able to change those opinions (nor should we necessarily try to) and that, much as we might be 100% convinced of the validity of our opinions, that does not preclude the opinions of others and that we should be prepared to discuss and accept other people's opinions without taking it as a personal insult - or that they are attacking our opinion - that they don't feel the way we do.

[expendable_crewman]

I thought this thread wasn't about explaining why you are "Pro" or "Anti" because then that leads people to want to respond/explain their position and we end up derailing into the same old Pro/Anti argument that this thread is supposed to be trying to prevent/heal?

And applauding someone for expressing/explaining the "Anti" opinion is not really gonna help things either?

My thoughts on the whole fandom division thing..

[EC's comment: the rest is under tags for length. Good post.]

Spoiler:

First off, I get that people have concerns over the show and the changes being made to it. I have my own concerns and I have had my little "Anti" moments here and there and posted, "Why are they making these changes?!!" rants here and there. And I also understand that, whether you are "Pro" or "Anti", it's nice to have somewhere to post and share your sentiments with like-minded folks who understand how you feel. So I get the need for an Anti thread and a Pro thread.

I'm also in favour of analysis and discussion and feel that all opinions should be welcomed in general discussion threads.. that goes for Episode Discussion threads and the more recent Discussion/Speculation threads for Season 4 episodes. However, I do feel that the Discussion/Speculation threads for Season 4, though not specifically labelled "Pro" threads, are by their nature slanted towards the positive... after all, wanting to discuss and speculate on the episodes is kinda indicative of an interest in the episodes?

I think - please correct me if I am wrong - that probably the majority of "Anti" fans are people who have varied concerns about aspects of the show and the changes made, and wanting to discuss those concerns is perfectly valid and I'm all for that kind of discussion. But.. there also seems to be a small group of "Anti" fans whose opinion is just blanket negativity - they have decided that the show is/is going to be crap, they are determined not to watch it and feel that, effectively, the show is over. Now, they are perfectly entitled to that opinion and are welcome to discuss it and post it as much as they like in the appropriate threads - I personally, however, don't feel that the Episode Discussion/Speculation threads are appropriate for those kind of sentiments. Saying "It's going to be crap" is not discussion or speculation. It is one thing to discuss aspects of the episode and explain your concerns and why you think this is not going to be a good thing ("I think this is going to be not good because..." or "I'm concerned that this aspect of the ep is not going to work well") - it is another to just make blanket negative statements to the effect that the whole show is crap and everything is going to be crap, with no explanation of what your specific concerns are and no willingness to debate the matter. This is what I see *some* posters doing and I think this really does not help the divisiveness in fandom right now.

I can't help but feel that if you don't like the show anymore and have decided not to watch Season 4, they why would you want to read/discuss spoilers/information about those episodes? To me, that seems kinda like you're torturing yourself. If you truly believe the show is crap/going to be crap from X point onwards and nothing you read about the show or the future plotlines etc etc is ever going to change that opinion, then why spend your time reading about the plotlines etc that you have already decided are going to be awful? To go into those threads and post blanket negative statements does come across, to me at least, as wanting either to ruin other people's enjoyment of discussing the spoilers or to make sure that everybody knows how much you dislike the show - neither or which is productive or conducive to a friendly fandom.

Posting such generalised negativity, with no willingness to discuss or support your statement, in the more general threads does come across as trying to derail the thread/spoil things for those who are not so comprehensively negative. Just because people post "Pro" opinions in the discussion threads does not mean they are blindly happy and accepting of every aspect of the show and the changes made to it.. as I said, I myself still have concerns (and, for example, would rather not have Carter in SGA)... but merely that there are still aspects of the show they enjoy and are looking forward to and they are perhaps being optimistic in choosing to wait and see how the areas they have concerns about work out. I would like to think that most fans, whether they consider themselves "Pro" or "Anti" are willing to discuss the show constructively and look at both positive and negative aspects... it is the hardcore element who don't want to discuss but rather state their opinions as fact (whether that be, "It's all bad! End of story!" or "It'll all be great, no matter what!") that result in bad-feeling and animosity. You can't have a discussion with someone who refuses to even acknowledge that your opinion has any merit and that causes frustration and arguments.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that not all "Anti" fans are 100% against the show/the changes and not all "Pro" fans are 100% happy and blithely accepting of the show/the changes. And we need to accept that and accept that people have differing opinions. Where I find the animosity sparks is when people post 100% polarised opinions - and that goes as much for "Pros" as "Antis". Posting "the show is crap, it's all gonna be awful" is not helpful and does not engender fruitful discussion.. and neither does posting "the show can do no wrong, everything will be wonderful".

What I personally really don't understand though is the stance of some of the 100% negative posters. I have seen some people posting that they hope the show gets cancelled. Now how can that be anything but divisive? If you no longer like the show and don't wish to watch anymore then that's your choice and your prerogative. But to say that, because you don't want the show to change and don't want to see it with the changes in place, nobody else should get to see it either? I just find that a very difficult stance to justify and I feel that statements like that can only cause division and anger within the fandom.

I've waffled an awful lot here and I'm still not sure I've adequately expressed/explained my feelings on the subject but, for what it's worth, there they are. I think at the end of the day we need to simply be accepting of the fact that people do have opinions different to our own, that we won't be able to change those opinions (nor should we necessarily try to) and that, much as we might be 100% convinced of the validity of our opinions, that does not preclude the opinions of others and that we should be prepared to discuss and accept other people's opinions without taking it as a personal insult - or that they are attacking our opinion - that they don't feel the way we do.

I've had a similar reaction to reading about high hopes for (not fears of) the show *not* going on for *not* meeting the needs of the person who is online to discuss said show. I know that's what a scroll bar is for, but it's getting to the point that I'm using the scroll bar so often, I might as well get off that particular thread.

I have no problem discussing the show, for and against whatever there is to be for and against. Uniforms, gate versus ship, more ships (the ones that fly and the ones that don't), less ships, cast changes, planet changes-- there's a feast of topics to discuss if discussing Atlantis (the good, the bad, and the ugly) is your happy place.

My thing is, since when did it get to be okay that a minority, either 100% high on things going their way or 100% ticked off about things going another way, get to divide fandom into "true fans," "pure fans," "real fans," and now I'm seeing there's a definition of THE SG1 fan and THE SGA fan. What's bad about this is it's not up for discussion. I mean, is there a sign-up sheet? There must be a manifesto and a banner somewhere and I missed the window for registration. Do T-shirts and free Kool-Aid at the rallies come with the membership card? All this drum beating (on both sides) comes complete with that old favorite song titled, "If you're not with us, you're against us."

Not knowing who "us" may be or what the war is about exactly, I'm sidelined (1) because I'm still really interested in discussing Stargate, and that means that whether or not I'm jumping up and down with glee over all topics A-Z, I find lots to discuss, and (2) I'll never go to war (so to speak) over a TV show. World hunger, maybe. But not over a bit of entertainment.

To me, the problem online lately is not an Anti issue or a Pro issue. It's not Anti versus Pro either.

Anti and Pro threads and the folks who love them co-exist just fine on GW more or less. I see those threads as sanctuaries, a breather if you really need one.

It's the fans who are anti discussion in discussion threads that I don't get. If a fan is high on the whatever is going on at the moment or down on said stuff, great, but (for this mess to ever end) that fan's got to accept that he or she is not the only fan that really loves and "understands" this show.

That kind of posting needs a rest, IMO.

[Pegasus_SGA]

I thought this thread wasn't about explaining why you are &quot;Pro&quot; or &quot;Anti&quot; because then that leads people to want to respond/explain their position and we end up derailing into the same old Pro/Anti argument that this thread is supposed to be trying to prevent/heal?

</p>
I can't say much as i'm in work, so this is just a quickie until I get home. But I actually asked Paris why she wanted the show to be cancelled. Hopefully to try and understand where her and the others who are unhappy are coming from... you know i'm not going to say pro and anti anymore because I think it's only fuelling the fire. But I asked her in the hopes of trying to get a picture of what it is that is causing the divition between fans and the animosity (imo) seems to be stemming a lot from those who have concernes about S4 and those who don't. SO by Paris explaining her reasons, may give us a glimpse of how others feel, and it's only when we know how others feel that we can find some common ground and hopefully stop the animosity that seems to be dividing the fans. I doubt that we will ever be happy either side, but if we comprimise and see what the other persons point of view is, then it will hopefully pave the way for the... two sides coming together. That's where the negotiation comes in and is a good grounding for all sides if we find out what the root of the problems are. And while I disagree with Paris, it doesn't mean that I don't respect her honesty and thoughtful post. Hopefully I can answer a bit more ini detail, but this is just how I feel. My job involves negotiating and this is the first step, so thank you Paris. Hopefully we can all work through what it is that's splitting up the fandom and try and at least have an amicable discussion. Gotta go now, hope that answers your question Ali.

[Alipeeps]

It's the fans who are anti discussion in discussion threads that I don't get. If a fan is high on the whatever is going on at the moment or down on said stuff, great, but (for this mess to ever end) that fan's got to accept that he or she is not the only fan that really loves and "understands" this show.

That kind of posting needs a rest, IMO.

An excellent point.. that's what I was trying to get at above, I think - but you expressed it much more concisely than I!

What causes so much of the animosity is people, of whatever opinion, who come to discussion threads not to discuss, not to both offer and receive an opinion, but to state their opinion and refuse to acknowledge any attempts to rationally discuss it.