Who should lead SG1?(Spoilers)

[ReganX]

BTW - I couldn't be more disgusted with the way they "handled" this mess and they way they (TIIC) "demoted" Carter - it is a joke now especially when you see what they made mitchell into - he is so far OUT of Carter's (and Daniel and Teal'c's) league I wouldn't let him lead a boy scout troop across the street.

I'm pretty disgusted with the current mess myself.

I know that TPTB seem to have a plan to fix the problem next season, but I think they may have dug themselves into too deep a hole.

Didn't they realize that people would be upset at Sam losing her command?

[Deevil]

Actually I don't think they realised people would notice her loosing command, and if you were to tune in once in a while, I don't think you would have.

They have dug themselves a hole I agree, but maybe by acknowledging it (Mitchell *****ing that there is no one to order about, no clear chain of command), it may be able to be dealt with.

I will admit, even though I am pretty easy going to when it comes to most things on TV (I believe in the creative process, and I believe it isn't something I should judge and expect to change because I am a fan), this is the one thing that pisses me off.

If, and I do mean if, they had Mitchell being more of a consistant, I don't think people would be having issues to this extreme. But the lack of this consistancy is a problem. But then again, I am still under the impression, with absolutely no evidence to back me up, that they are setting Mitchell up for a fall with a potentially very large body count.

[RealmOfX]

Actually Sam didn't have 2 commands taken from her, which is something important to note. She left 1 command for another; so it's on a rather even footing there, and then she returned to the SGC to a co-command position (because I will say, Mitchell isn't in sole command).

And that does happen in the military, in tranfers you are not guarenteed commands or positions... And they do still have their USAF advisor on the show.

Second, we just don't know what the hell is going on with their command, ad we are making some very heavy assumptions on it. But I still don't think a) this is going to kill her career, and b) that somehow not returning to the exact position she left is a slep in the face to her.

Now, we may not like exactly how it was written, and yes TPTB could have written it differently (they could have written Daniel as a mouse with galsses too) but this is how it is. And I don't see the brass as downplaying her achievments simply because we still don't know whether she chose to return, she was ordered to return, or there is a possibility she isn't even perminatly assigned to the team.

Anything is possible.

That's one way of looking at it and yes I agree that they have deliberately been ambiguous about what Sam's actual position is. However, there is no such thing as co-comand in the military. Mitchell was assigned command of SG-1 and nothing has been said to contradict this on the show. Sam is now in an undefined position, she has not been officially given command of anything. In the military if you are seen as being in a position that is not a command when you previously were in command (in Sam's case SG-1 and R&D at Area51) then it is seen as having two commands taken off of you.

I got the following from a website on officer promotion :
" The two most significant factors in an officer's promotion records are inarguably their fitness report(s) and level of responsibility in their current and past assignments. Because of this, many people consider the officer promotion system to be very "political," in nature. A "blah" fitness report can result in being "passed over." Lack of current or previous assignments that had significant degrees of responsibility can also result in not being selected. "

What they did to Sam is a career killer.

My view on who should lead has always been based on the way that TPTB has written the two officers. TPTB for whatever reason chose to write Sam out of command and into an ambiguous position, they chose to replace her with an officer that they told us had an impeccable record and yet they have failed to show us one (do I have to stick an IMO here?). Whether TPTB intended it or not they have taken a female officer out of command and replaced her with a male officer who didn't have the qualifications for the job and whose actions have been the subject of much debate. People are drawing their own conclusions.

Guess what - I still choose the officer that they have written as competent and deserving of the position - Carter.

<edited to add> DOH! I just figured out what ETA in all those posts were :headdesk:
Hey Deevil, I just read what I wrote (with my usual strong language) and I'm not taking a shot at you, it's just that you happened to have the last post that I read on the subject that I was interested in.
Where I'm coming from is that I do not like what they have written for either officer, I guess I'm harping on Sam's lack of command because people just don't seem to understand the seriousness of what they have done to her career. I have just caught up with the rest of the posts and yes I agree that they have dug themselves into a very big hole. I hope that they find a solution that will treat both officers with respect.

[Deevil]

That's one way of looking at it and yes I agree that they have deliberately been ambiguous about what Sam's actual position is. However, there is no such thing as co-comand in the military. Mitchell was assigned command of SG-1 and nothing has been said to contradict this on the show. Sam is now in an undefined position, she has not been officially given command of anything.

Yeah, I know co-command doesn't exist in the military... So I explained it away in my head that she isn't actually assigned to SG-1. She could still be 'on-loan', and thus still could have her position at Area 51. The problem is there is nothing to support anything to do with the current status of Sam's character - so we get to play with the fun of speculation.

It's great fan-fic fodder, but not great for canon.

Lack of current or previous assignments that had significant degrees of responsibility can also result in not being selected. "

What they did to Sam is a career killer.

Yes, but no at the same time. It all depnds on what her situation is. And honestly, she will still be heading up the science department at the SGC like she always did - so she still has those command points.

We have no where near enough info to make the detirmination of 'career killer'. And sadly, it would work the same way for Mitchell.

And I agree with the exact reasons why you chose Sam. It makes perfect sense to me!

[ReganX]

They have dug themselves a hole I agree, but maybe by acknowledging it (Mitchell *****ing that there is no one to order about, no clear chain of command), it may be able to be dealt with.

It will be very difficult.

One of the big problems I, and others I have spoken to, have with Mitchell being in command is that Sam isn't.

Maybe the situation would have been different had they restored Sam as leader of SG-1 as soon as she returned but they let it go on too long and now, as Lightsabre pointed out, taking command away would reflect badly on Mitchell - personally, I don't care about that but Mitchell fans may feel differently.

Even promoting Sam to full colonel and having her retake command based on rank mightn't be enough to satisfy everybody.

Having Cameron run to Landry to complain may not be the best way of handling the situation, either. I see it lowering his character even further in my esteem and potentially dragging Landry down with him, depending on his response.

[jckfan55]

The writers really dropped the ball here. They just haven't given us (IMHO) plausible reasons for Sam's change(s) in position. She is the more qualified person to (continue) to command SG1--years of experience in gate travel in general and a year commanding already. IMHO, they should have made the Area 51 thing a clearly temporary assignment to do some specific project with the expectation that she would resume command of SG1 once it was finished. Mitchell would have been only temporarily in charge. Upon Sam's return he'd fall under her command. He wanted to originally, according to actual dialogue. it would have been so much easier if they had just made him a major.

[Deevil]

Even promoting Sam to full colonel and having her retake command based on rank mightn't be enough to satisfy everybody.

Satisfying everyone is an impossibility. Oddly enough, some people are going to be happy with any kind of resolution. Just tell us what's going on, and we can accept it.

Yes, Sam should have been in command. I have been doing so research into Air Force proceedures, and seniority of rank can be displaced by those hwo have the most experience in that position. By that I mean, even if Mitchell (does anyone find it interesting we call hum by his surname and not his first?) was promted to Lt. Col. first, Sam still has the most experience and thus is most likely to be in command of the team. There are exceptions to this rule, but we are talking about the rule, not the exception.

I wouldn't have a problem if Mitchell was in charge if he acted like a leader, which is something I haven't seen him do. Sure, it'll mean Sam didn't come back to her old position, but hell why not just put in a throw away line that says she is still technically overseeing R&D at Area 51... That way she still has a command position.

I just think this needs to be rectified one way or another... then we can complain about the outcome.

Having Cameron run to Landry to complain may not be the best way of handling the situation, either. I see it lowering his character even further in my esteem and potentially dragging Landry down with him, depending on his response.

I don't see it that way, because I don't know how it is going to be handled. I just know it is. If it comes up in convo, it comes up in convo. There are many ways he can approach this without coming off like whinging, and I am not going to assume that's the way it'll end up.

[RealmOfX]

Mitchell (does anyone find it interesting we call hum by his surname and not his first?)

Yep. I don't know about others but I usually refer to characters by their first name but I refuse to use Cam and Sam together so in this thread I usually end up with Mitchell and sometimes Carter.

[Lightsabre]

Satisfying everyone is an impossibility. Oddly enough, some people are going to be happy with any kind of resolution. Just tell us what's going on, and we can accept it.

I fully agree.

Yes, Sam should have been in command. I have been doing so research into Air Force proceedures, and seniority of rank can be displaced by those hwo have the most experience in that position. By that I mean, even if Mitchell (does anyone find it interesting we call hum by his surname and not his first?) was promted to Lt. Col. first, Sam still has the most experience and thus is most likely to be in command of the team. There are exceptions to this rule, but we are talking about the rule, not the exception.

But there are also many many cases of a inexperienced superior officer taking command from an experienced senior officer.
And I don't find it interesting we use his surname, I call Carter Carter 90% of the time as well. I don't think it means anything.

I wouldn't have a problem if Mitchell was in charge if he acted like a leader, which is something I haven't seen him do. Sure, it'll mean Sam didn't come back to her old position, but hell why not just put in a throw away line that says she is still technically overseeing R&D at Area 51... That way she still has a command position.

I don't have a problem with Mitchell in charge, but I agree he needs to be written more of a commander and less as 'a guy on the team'. He's in charge and that needs to be shown.

[Lightsabre]

That's one way of looking at it and yes I agree that they have deliberately been ambiguous about what Sam's actual position is. However, there is no such thing as co-comand in the military. Mitchell was assigned command of SG-1 and nothing has been said to contradict this on the show. Sam is now in an undefined position, she has not been officially given command of anything. In the military if you are seen as being in a position that is not a command when you previously were in command (in Sam's case SG-1 and R&D at Area51) then it is seen as having two commands taken off of you.

I got the following from a website on officer promotion :
" The two most significant factors in an officer's promotion records are inarguably their fitness report(s) and level of responsibility in their current and past assignments. Because of this, many people consider the officer promotion system to be very "political," in nature. A "blah" fitness report can result in being "passed over." Lack of current or previous assignments that had significant degrees of responsibility can also result in not being selected. "

What they did to Sam is a career killer.

I gotta disagree here RoX. For one, your point of view that she has 2 commands taken off her is just that, your point of view. While you have backed it up, your evidence proves that it's the brass that make the decision.
Given that it's the self same brass you and others claim ordered Sam into her position, is it not concievable that they will know WHY she is in the position she is in and take that into account.

Also, given your explanation above, Sam has, for 7 years and despite gaining a promotion from Captain to Major, taken on NO new responsibilities. She's led the team a few times, but only as acting leader, which fits under the heading of her 2IC duties.
Given the criteria above takes into account the responsibilities that the officer holds and the fact that Sam has gained no new ones, isn't that likely to tell against her as badly or worse than her being reassigned?

[Deevil]

But there are also many many cases of a inexperienced superior officer taking command from an experienced senior officer.

The airforce is a very different animal then Army or Navy and they tend to favour experience over superority. That being said, if a Col come into the equation and a Lt. had more experience of course the Col. would be in charge.

But because Mitchell and Carter's ranks the same, they would technically favour experience over superioirty.

And I don't find it interesting we use his surname, I call Carter Carter 90% of the time as well. I don't think it means anything.

Actually I think it does. I think it has something to do with the fact that we know nothing of the person behind the insignia. We don't know Cameron, we only know Mitchell and tend to identify him as such.

Then again, I also agree with why RoX does it. Cam and Sam in the same sentence is odd.

I don't have a problem with Mitchell in charge, but I agree he needs to be written more of a commander and less as 'a guy on the team'. He's in charge and that needs to be shown.

He is? Really? I don't think I have seen it. I've seen Sam in charge, and Sam take charge, but not Mitchell. Which makes it difficult for me to say he is without a shadow of a doubt the (sole) commander of the team.

is it not concievable that they will know WHY she is in the position she is in and take that into account.

Not concievable actually. They look at positions, rarely the reasons for such. And since Jack and Landry don't decide who gets the promotions, they only recommend officers for promotions - the promotions board wouldn't have any idea as to why it has happened.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think what has happened is a career killer, as the way the ambeguity stands now - but there are different levels and postions of brass and they don't all talk.

Given the criteria above takes into account the responsibilities that the officer holds and the fact that Sam has gained no new ones, isn't that likely to tell against her as badly or worse than her being reassigned?

Umm, actually, once again I see why you might think this, but it is incorrect. Your position in any team does not need to change in order for you to get and be eligable for promotions. New responsibilites could mean new tasks on base (more OD duty, much more paperwork, more responsibility over subordinates and their actions), but your actual position need not change.

[the dancer of spaz]

Actually I don't think they realised people would notice her loosing command, and if you were to tune in once in a while, I don't think you would have.

They have dug themselves a hole I agree, but maybe by acknowledging it (Mitchell *****ing that there is no one to order about, no clear chain of command), it may be able to be dealt with.

I will admit, even though I am pretty easy going to when it comes to most things on TV (I believe in the creative process, and I believe it isn't something I should judge and expect to change because I am a fan), this is the one thing that pisses me off.

If, and I do mean if, they had Mitchell being more of a consistant, I don't think people would be having issues to this extreme. But the lack of this consistancy is a problem. But then again, I am still under the impression, with absolutely no evidence to back me up, that they are setting Mitchell up for a fall with a potentially very large body count.

I'm commenting because I can't green you, but, I totally agree with that. If it had been handled any other way on Mitchell's development, I don't think we would be debating this for 2+ months.

[Dani347]

(does anyone find it interesting we call hum by his surname and not his first?)

Depends on why each person does it. I call him Mitchell because Mitchell is a much better name than Cameron. And, I have no objections to the name Sam, and, to me, Carter refers to the character that Noah Wyle used to play on ER.

Of course, I've loved and known characters that have been known on tv and by fans by their last names, so I don't automatically see that as a sign of distance between them. If Mitchell had been on the show since season 1, I'd be calling him that instead of the icky Cameron. (No offense to any people named Cameron)

Oh, and because I can't resist, here's a link to what Daniel would look like as a mousehttp://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archiv...rtMouseWeb.jpg

[astrogeologist]

I will admit, even though I am pretty easy going to when it comes to most things on TV (I believe in the creative process, and I believe it isn't something I should judge and expect to change because I am a fan), this is the one thing that pisses me off.

I too, have found myself reacting much more strongly to this than I ever have with any other TV or scifi show.

For me, it never occurred to me that they would 'write Carter out of command'.
And I am still stunned that they did it.

I never expected Carter to be the center of every episode. I didn't expect the episodes to be focussed on her leadership. I thought that we were just going to get to see a woman competently leading this cool band of intrepid heroes on various adventures. Her leadership would be part of the background tapestry. Competent and reliable. Seasoned. And it just seemed like it was her time.

That AT got pregnant didn't seem like any reason at all to 'write Carter out of command.'

And it didn't occur to me (I guess I'm a naive fool) that TPTB would feel the need to replace RDA with another 'lead male' -- that would displace Carter from her hard-earned position.

Silly me, I thought they'd bring in another member for the team... another lead for the show... but one who would be a subordinate for Carter to command - and watch out for - and teach - as she learned from O'Neill.

I thought the show was growing and developing.

I did not expect them to try and 'reset' things back to a lead male (now BB, was RDA) with the female out of command.

D'oh! (Boy do I feel stupid after what they wrote for Season 9). To be honest, I still blink and wonder what I missed... because... surely, I've misunderstood, right? Surely, there's no way that they wrote Carter out of command and brought in a new male actor to be the new team leader?

Oy!

Like I said at the beginning, the storyline that they concocted and presented for Season 9 has me more pissed off at a TV show than I ever remember reacting. Usually, it's just TV. But this storyline with Carter sends a nasty message about our society that I don't like at all.

And - I'm disgusted that it's pitted fan bases against each other. Some who want Sam for CO and some who want Mitchell. The storyline that they've set up did not create a wonderful team for us all to enjoy - it's actually created huge schisms in the fan base - and that's just sad. Season 9 should have been fun and exciting - and something that pulled the fans together. But no matter what you liked about Season 9, you can't say that it pulled the fans together.

Whatever happens in Season 10, I fervently hope that *all* of the main characters are treated with respect - that they are all portrayed heroically - and that the team/the show pulls together.

[scarimor]

However, the oft glossed over part of that quote is that O'Neill finished his rant by saying 'He;s not going anywhere near the gate till he's had the proper training'. Given that we KNOW Mitchell has O'Neill's blessing, isn't it far more likely than not that Mitchell has done the proper training and that's WHY he has said blessing?

It's never been glossed over. One might assume he'd had off-screen training to be on an off-world team; but then this discussion has never been about team membership for Cameron, as everyone knows, so your point is an irrelevant tangent. It's about off-world team leadership. To be suitable to lead an off-world team, and what's more the flagship team, an officer should have plenty of experience of that team field-work first. Which Cameron hasn't. That pertinent issue, far from being glossed over, has been stated here over and over again. I doubt you could have missed it, really. Perhaps you forgot while you were away?