Dark Side Of The Moon (516)

[Crichiel]

Just two quick notes, I'm on borrowed internet time here...

I don't think Zach manipulated the whole 'heaven' thing, but I'm pretty sure about Mary Winchester, for two reasons. 1) Ash said Mary and John couldn't be found anywhere in heaven, and 2) the way Zach just 'snipped' Mary away. I'm kinda undecided about Pamela. Trying to convince Dean to say 'yes' to Michael seemed a bit off - while the kiss was definitely vintage the psychic we met in 'Lazarus Rising'.

As for the spoiler in Crichiel's post, I think it refers more to the fact that

Spoiler:

it's the 99th episode.

Ahhhh (concerning the spoiler)

Spoiler:

I figured that everyone who goes through the spoiler thread on a regular basis probably already knew what the title meant! (and that my idea was totally off the wall! It was just funny because when I saw all the beer bottles 'on the wall' at the beginning of the episode, the song popped into my head and it reminded me of the episode title. It makes sense with it being the 99th episode, though.

I never REALLY thought that Pamela WAS Zachariah. But her spiel sure sounded like something Zachariah would argue, didn't it?...although...if it WAS Zachariah, that would explain how he was able to mess up Ash's trick to shortcut the boys to the garden, if he was sitting right there, listening in...but then I'd hate to be Ash if Zachariah decides to punish him for helping the boys...but would God allow an angel to punish someone in heaven?...but Zachariah was basically torturing the boys in heaven...but but but.....my head hurts.

[starg8fans]

Just two quick notes, I'm on borrowed internet time here...

I don't think Zach manipulated the whole 'heaven' thing, but I'm pretty sure about Mary Winchester, for two reasons. 1) Ash said Mary and John couldn't be found anywhere in heaven, and 2) the way Zach just 'snipped' Mary away. I'm kinda undecided about Pamela. Trying to convince Dean to say 'yes' to Michael seemed a bit off - while the kiss was definitely vintage the psychic we met in 'Lazarus Rising'.

As for the spoiler in Crichiel's post, I think it refers more to the fact that

Spoiler:

it's the 99th episode.

[Crichiel]

Here we go…

Let’s start with Dean’s drinking. Holy COW!!! Getting a little excessive? To the point where it’s obviously affecting his hunting skills if those guys can sneak into the room and pull guns on them without Dean waking up. I’ve been waiting for this to come to a head. They’ve mentioned his drinking even more than they've mentioned that he's never really been in love. Spoiler for the next ep:

Spoiler:

Probably been brought up a dozen times on the spoiler thread as obvious, or everyone there already knows the meaning, or just my stupid idea, but is the “99” in the title of the next episode a reference to 99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall? Referring to Dean’s drinking and his loss of faith over all?

Hell of an opening, anyway. Nice to bring up hunters being after Sam again, and good shock with how coldly they shoot him.

Firework scene. Again, this scene just KILLS me! The look on Dean’s face is just so…parental. You can just see the love for Sammy on his face. I can see why it is so hard for Dean to treat Sam as an equal when he really started life as his ‘mother’!

That the path in heaven for these two would be a road makes beautiful, poetic sense.

Sam’s first memory for heaven threw me for a bit, but once he said what it was, I could understand…this FIRST memory.

I thought it sad that Sam doesn’t think he would ever get to heaven.

“Don’t go into the light!” “Ok. Thanks Carol Anne.” I laughed at that one!

Um, little upset, Cas? “ You think maybe, just MAYBE we should find out what the HELL God has been saying?!” I agree with Dean, “Geez, touchy.” Cas wasn’t THIS disillusioned last time we saw him.

Dean saying prayer is the last hope of a desperate man. He showed us his belief in this statement at the end of My Bloody Valentine when he prayed. And it reinforces just how desperately he’s been trying to hold onto his faith that things will work out. Which makes his total despair at the end totally understandable. He’s now had that final hope yanked away from him. That was all that was keeping him going.

“More Trippy. You apparently…wuv hugs.” Great line delivery, Jared.

Whoa, Samantha Smith looked gorgeous in this one! This lady looks younger now than she did in the pilot!

Scene with Mary. Wow. Just wow. Again, Dean just transforms into this lost little boy that you just want to hold. From the looks he gives her, to her hand on his head (and him accepting the hand on the head), to the way he wants just that one minute more, even though he KNOWS this isn’t real.

And knowing this isn’t real, he is still so completely devoted to making things better for his family, that even in a memory, he has to go over and comfort her.

“Dad always said they had the perfect marriage.” “It wasn’t perfect until after she died.” If I remember correctly, the clinical name for this is the Halo Effect. Very common human foible that when we lose someone close, we tend to forget the bad times. I like that this was added in here, because it makes John and Mary more human.

The realisation on Sam’s face as he sees Dean playing out his peacekeeper role at SUCH a young age. His comment, “I just never realised how long you’ve been cleaning up Dad’s messes.” Briefly brings up the old, angry Sam again. Angry at John for the way he raised them. So it makes sense that his next memory in heaven would be a time away from John.

Sam’s memories. This is a tricky one. Sam can’t be blamed for what he couldn’t control. But I also don’t think I agree that he has NOTHING to apologise for. The way he views family…Dean can’t HELP but take this personally!

Yes, it probably was a good thing for Sam to get away from John…but not to cut off Dean as well. Yes, a parents want the child to eventually go out into the world on their own…but not to leave in anger and cut the them off! Sam was so self-focused on getting himself out of a bad situation, that Dean, who raised him, who gave everything he had (and then some) to Sam’s happiness…didn’t even enter Sam’s thoughts when he decided to leave.

And you can see it. THIS is what kills Dean. That Dean was worried Sam was dead, had to face John’s wrath when Sam disappeared, but what does Sam say,? “Dean, look. I’m sorry. I never thought about it like that.” Exactly. He never thought about Dean. Sam (and John and Mary when they were alive) is ALL that Dean thinks about. It's one thing if Sam had thought, "I know this will be hard on Dean, too. But it's something I need to do." But, to not even THINK of Dean? Sam doesn’t see that when he “finally got away from Dad.”, he also abandoned Dean by default.

Again, I KNOW this is a tricky subject, because it Sam isn't WRONG, per se. It's not his fault he feels this way. You don't get to choose your feelings. When he says that he didn’t get his PB&J, he doesn’t say it in anger, he says it very matter-of-fact. This is how it was for HIM and it's WHY he doesn't feel that family attachment as strongly as Dean. And you can see he wants to spare Dean further agony, because he tries to get him away before he realizes what this memory is…but still.

So his point is valid, “I don’t look at family the way you do.” But you can feel the knife in Dean’s heart in his response, “Yeah, but I’m your family.” As I think one of you said, deep down I think Dean always believed/hoped that Sam felt as strongly about family as he did. But here in heaven, where you are shown the truth of your feelings, he sees once and for all that that isn't true. That’s a killing blow for him.

Ash and Pam in heaven. I like that Ash’s heaven is the Roadhouse. Having Pamela in the scene was disjointed to me. To me, it smacked of “which guest star is available?” It would have been more memorable for me had it been Ellen or Jo or half a dozen other people. But, they work with what they got. *shrug*

I did love the, “If it makes you feel any better, we got Ash killed, too” “I’m cool with it!”

Like Dean, I find the idea of walking through old memories alone in your own heaven lonely. And when Pamela started trying to convince Dean about what would the worst scenario be if he said ‘yes’ to Michael, she made sense, but I was starting to wonder if she was Zachariah in disguise. Trying to trick him again.

Pamela kissing Dean. Huh. I always got the impression she had more of a thing for Sam. She was always commenting on his bum!

Back at the house with ‘Mary’. Nice way to slide in YED. Ewwww, to Mary and Zach. Poor Dean AGAIN!! Jump in any time here, Sam, while she is verbally abusing your brother!

Zachariah getting so ticked about his turn of events the past couple years. Interesting because I just watched It’s a Terrible Life on Saturday. He seemed so calm and in control there! Amazing what a short time with the Winchesters will do to you! I gotta say, though, I am surprised he’s still trying to ‘help’ Michael’s side of the war. I can’t imagine God or Michael will be too happy with his methods!

LOVE Joshua. Great character, wonderful actor choice.

Hee hee. Botanical garden. One of the few Vancouver sites that Supernatural HADN’T used, yet.

That Joshua believes that maybe God “just doesn’t think it’s his problem”. As I already said, I don’t think I buy that. Nice to have the black and white answer to how they got on the plane, and how Castiel came back, though, instead of just guesses.

The look of pity on both Joshua’s and Sam’s faces when Joshua is talking to Dean about how he is losing faith. Very sad.

Back in the room. SAM having to say they have to have hope. And you can see him trying so hard to make it up to Dean, and what he said about family when he passionately insists, “We’ll find it. You and me. We’ll find it.”

But it is too little, too late. Dean might have bought it before their jaunt to heaven, but not anymore. Even if Sam means is NOW, Dean is too despondent to believe it.

The amulet. The look on Sam’s face when Dean throws it away says it all, Dean is well and truly broken.

[the fifth man]

Thanks again for that link.

Interesting theory raised. I could see that being a possibility...Zak picking and choosing which memories were brought forth, considering that according to Ash people don't generally mingle in each other's heaven, but I'm going to stick with no meddling by Zack. Sure that's the harder pill to swallow, especially for Dean, but I see Sam's point of view, and don't fault him for it. So while he has to have some happy memories of he and his family together, those just weren't the ones at the forefront of his mind. I like the more genuine experience, rather than the possibility that it was manipulated....other than for the nastiness of the last one with their mother saying all those hurtful things when Zack reappeared. Totally believe that was Zach's doing.

Yeah, that was definitely Zach twisting things. That was really evil of him.

[LoneStar1836]

One of my "must reads" when it come to rethink about an SPN episode is Maureen Ryans blog at the Chicago Tribune on-line, and you can find her recent blog here. Inside is a interesting idea: what if heaven wasn't the way it should normally be but it was twisted by Zach? It was his playground at all, and he knows that he has to break the boys to get to his goal. So why not show Dean a side of Sam he is trying to ignore for quite some time, and show Sam how much Dean is clinging on a glorified past which wasn't that good at all, pushing Dean all the way back to be Dads little soldier.

Honestly, I prefer the idea that Zach manipulated the boys road over the idea that there is really nothing in Sams heaven which puts him together with his real family.

Thanks again for that link.

Interesting theory raised. I could see that being a possibility...Zak picking and choosing which memories were brought forth, considering that according to Ash people don't generally mingle in each other's heaven, but I'm going to stick with no meddling by Zack. Sure that's the harder pill to swallow, especially for Dean, but I see Sam's point of view, and don't fault him for it. So while he has to have some happy memories of he and his family together, those just weren't the ones at the forefront of his mind. I like the more genuine experience, rather than the possibility that it was manipulated....other than for the nastiness of the last one with their mother saying all those hurtful things when Zack reappeared. Totally believe that was Zach's doing.

[LizzieAnne]

So, concerning this episode: I god really not interested in an intervention or is it part of his plan for team free will, that this team has to think that they are on their own?

When everything is really predetermined, why fight at all? I am still in for team free will, even if this episode was a heavy setback. Seeing Dean and Cas broken was heartbraking and I just hope that Sam picked up the amulet, I am sure that it will play a part very much later.

One of my "must reads" when it come to rethink about an SPN episode is Maureen Ryans blog at the Chicago Tribune on-line, and you can find her recent blog here. Inside is a interesting idea: what if heaven wasn't the way it should normally be but it was twisted by Zach? It was his playground at all, and he knows that he has to break the boys to get to his goal. So why not show Dean a side of Sam he is trying to ignore for quite some time, and show Sam how much Dean is clinging on a glorified past which wasn't that good at all, pushing Dean all the way back to be Dads little soldier.

Honestly, I prefer the idea that Zach manipulated the boys road over the idea that there is really nothing in Sams heaven which puts him together with his real family.

On an additional note: it was great to see Pam and Ash and the roadhouse again. Ash was such a great guy and this episode made it clear what we lost when the roadhouse burned down. Also Pamela. And Pam kissing Dean. Really loved that kiss.

So, isn't it really that bad up there? I mean, it's heaven, it's supposed to be great, isn't it?

Some really good points there.

I like that idea of heaven being twisted by Zach in some way because it makes sense....I need to watch it again ..one watch really isn't enough to pick up all those points but I did have a feeling that things were a bit off there. Pam was a bit too insistent that many people dying wasn't such a bad thing!! And Sam not being able to get any love or comfort from his mother as he had to watch Dean with her...that's not heaven...that's hell for him.

[Alan Wake]

I'd really like to see god in human form.

[iolanda]

So, concerning this episode: is god really not interested in an intervention or is it part of his plan for team free will, that this team has to think that they are on their own?

When everything is really predetermined, why fight at all? I am still in for team free will, even if this episode was a heavy setback. Seeing Dean and Cas broken was heartbraking and I just hope that Sam picked up the amulet, I am sure that it will play a part very much later.

One of my "must reads" when it come to rethink about an SPN episode is Maureen Ryans blog at the Chicago Tribune on-line, and you can find her recent blog here. Inside is a interesting idea: what if heaven wasn't the way it should normally be but it was twisted by Zach? It was his playground at all, and he knows that he has to break the boys to get to his goal. So why not show Dean a side of Sam he is trying to ignore for quite some time, and show Sam how much Dean is clinging on a glorified past which wasn't that good at all, pushing Dean all the way back to be Dads little soldier.

Honestly, I prefer the idea that Zach manipulated the boys road over the idea that there is really nothing in Sams heaven which puts him together with his real family.

On an additional note: it was great to see Pam and Ash and the roadhouse again. Ash was such a great guy and this episode made it clear what we lost when the roadhouse burned down. Also Pamela. And Pam kissing Dean. Really loved that kiss.

So, isn't it really that bad up there? I mean, it's heaven, it's supposed to be great, isn't it?

[Alan Wake]

It was a good episode !

Enough said !

[Skydiver]

The rule is to use spoiler tags for any spoilers NOT in the episode the thread is about.

so please tag your spoilers

[LoneStar1836]

If you're talking about what I wrote, I'd have stopped reading when I got to the text in bold. Sorry if anything has been spoilt for you, but you were the one that continued to read.

Then I think you need to go back and read the spoiler rules for GateWorld.

Here and here. Spoilers for future episodes require a proper spoiler warning unless it's in the appropriate thread.

GW has the spoiler tag function (the exclamation (!) icon). Use it.

[iolanda]

Please use the spoiler tags. This is not the spoiler-thread and I was just fast reading through this thread, thought to be safe of spoilers and sadly overlooked your warning.

The spoiler tags are there for a reason.

[Aerilon]

Spoiler:

Anyway, read one of the episode snips for one coming; it said something about Dean saying yes to Michael, but Michael not taking his body, as the Angels had a new 'game plan'. That being the case, what Gabriel said was a load of rubbish.

It would be cool to not be spoiled for upcoming episodes here

If you're talking about what I wrote, I'd have stopped reading when I got to the text in bold. Sorry if anything has been spoilt for you, but you were the one that continued to read.

[iolanda]

It would be cool to not be spoiled for upcoming episodes here

[Aerilon]

I still don't really believe God is out of it because He doesn't care. I think it's one of two things: 1) Everything that is happening has been predetermined and is all part of His plan. So, He is just letting it play out. Or 2) The Bible tells us that men are still given free will, to make good choices OR bad ones. He isn't there to referee, He is there as a judge to give out the scores when the performances are done.

By definition, if God isn't there to get in the way of Human free will, then the Angels have no buisness either.

I'm a little sceptical about this whole 'pre-determined' thing. Regardless as to what Gabriel said. If everything had already been decided, then surely the Angels would know about it, as would God, so there would be no need to 'get involved' because nothing could be changed?

Anyway, read one of the episode snips for one coming;

Spoiler:

it said something about Dean saying yes to Michael, but Michael not taking his body, as the Angels had a new 'game plan'. That being the case, what Gabriel said was a load of rubbish.