Deep Space 9 Superior

[Trek_Girl42]

I wish Deep space nine was back on space. Can't believe the cancelled it. anyone know where i can see them.

I think you can pick up Spike tv most places in Canada (if you have SPACE you should also have it, I think it's in the cable package below SPACE).

[teal'c2006]

I think you can pick up Spike tv most places in Canada (if you have SPACE you should also have it, I think it's in the cable package below SPACE).

Would have to get ilico to get that station.

[Starbase]

Yes! Got to watch Dogs of War this evening- great ep, and I'm very excited for the next two eps- I'll probably go into them all furthar on Wednesday or Thursday after I've seen them.

Excellent Trek Girl!, I Tivo'd it myself and just finsihed watching it...... Given all that's right with this episode, I almost hate to mention what's wrong. The biggest problem with "Dogs of War" is the sometimes-awkward, uneven structure. It's a bit jarring to move back and forth between the Ferengi comedy scenes (which were quite funny) and the starkly darker themes on Cardassia. And while it would've been wrong to forego closure for Quark, it's still pretty hard to look at the Ferengi story as a necessary part of this arc. Although it was successful, it pales in comparison to the other rich material we've seen the past two episodes, and when there are two stories as there are here, with such different priorities and tones, they tend to get in each other's way. I hope I'm not overstating the case. "Dogs of War" is good work - but it's disparate in its thought process, perhaps by definition, considering its various subplots. It does set-up the 2 part conclusion quite well.

[the Fifth Race]

Yes! Got to watch Dogs of War this evening- great ep, and I'm very excited for the next two eps- I'll probably go into them all furthar on Wednesday or Thursday after I've seen them.

Sweet!, enjoy the finale over the next couple of days. I look forward to discussing it with you.

[QUOTE=Starbase;6435524]Given all that's right with this episode, I almost hate to mention what's wrong. The biggest problem with "Dogs of War" is the sometimes-awkward, uneven structure. It's a bit jarring to move back and forth between the Ferengi comedy scenes (which were quite funny) and the starkly darker themes on Cardassia. And while it would've been wrong to forego closure for Quark, it's still pretty hard to look at the Ferengi story as a necessary part of this arc. Although it was successful, it pales in comparison to the other rich material we've seen the past two episodes, and when there are two stories as there are here, with such different priorities and tones, they tend to get in each other's way.[/QUOTE

There's a moment in "The Dogs of War" when Quark has had enough. He has watched as Ferengi society around him has become, in his view, a travesty. And he realizes he hasn't been immune from the changes over the years; he sees that he has gone "soft." He launches into a histrionic tirade that continues to build in amusement as Quark's disgust is unleashed. Then he yells: "The line has to be drawn here! This far, and no further!"

I couldn't stop laughing.

It perhaps helps to know that the line was lifted almost directly from the speech Picard made in First Contact, and that First Contact co-writer Ronald D Moore probably had it in mind when he co-wrote "Dogs of War." It's refreshing to see an inside joke taken to such a blatantly over-the-top, self-referential, take-us-none-seriously extreme. But despite the fact the jokes aren't meant to be taken seriously, there's something about the character undercurrent that can be. Quark's story - undoubtedly DS9's last visit to Ferengi society - is without a doubt comedy, but behind it is a bizarre ring of truth.

Sisko also has some good moments, like his introduction to his new starship, the USS Sao Paulo, a Defiant-class ship that, naturally, Starfleet allows him to rename Defiant. While the addition of a new Defiant might seem to lessen the impact of the previous Defiant's death, the evident awe of Sisko settling into his new ship (including the nice, simple line, "Hello, ship") really makes the scene work.

[Trek_Girl42]

There's a moment in "The Dogs of War" when Quark has had enough. He has watched as Ferengi society around him has become, in his view, a travesty. And he realizes he hasn't been immune from the changes over the years; he sees that he has gone "soft." He launches into a histrionic tirade that continues to build in amusement as Quark's disgust is unleashed. Then he yells: "The line has to be drawn here! This far, and no further!"

I couldn't stop laughing.

It perhaps helps to know that the line was lifted almost directly from the speech Picard made in First Contact, and that First Contact co-writer Ronald D Moore probably had it in mind when he co-wrote "Dogs of War." It's refreshing to see an inside joke taken to such a blatantly over-the-top, self-referential, take-us-none-seriously extreme. But despite the fact the jokes aren't meant to be taken seriously, there's something about the character undercurrent that can be. Quark's story - undoubtedly DS9's last visit to Ferengi society - is without a doubt comedy, but behind it is a bizarre ring of truth.

I was wondering if that was the intent- it was pretty frakkin hilarious. And I loved to see the Ferengi story wrapped up so well- for a species that I did not like at the beginning of a series, I truly came to love many of their episodes, and this was a nice conclusion to that storyline.

[Missster.Freeman]

Yes! Got to watch Dogs of War this evening- great ep, and I'm very excited for the next two eps- I'll probably go into them all furthar on Wednesday or Thursday after I've seen them.

Just think, after the next two episodes it will all be over (barring a few episodes you missed), no more new DS9 episodes to watch. You could always start from the beginning again.

[Trek_Girl42]

Just think, after the next two episodes it will all be over (barring a few episodes you missed), no more new DS9 episodes to watch. You could always start from the beginning again.

*sigh* I know.....heartbreaking really......On the bright side I'll have nine episodes to go back and watch sometime! (somehow that looks like a bright side now) Then I'll have seen every Trek episode (except the Animated ones).....rather depressing to think that there's no more.

[Starbase]

I watched What You Leave Behind part I yesterday on Spike. Much better than I remembered. I will hold off my review until Trek_Girl watches Part 2.

I heard that on the DVDs, there is a feature where they did an alternate ending where the Federation looses. Is that true? If it is, I’d like to see it but I’m glad they didn’t do that!!

LOL, although the thought of alternate ending sounds rather intriguing, no such thing exists on DVD or anywhere else other than a canon novel maybe. I know they did do a handful of canon and non-canon books that pick up where DS9 ended. Some follow Sisko and Kira's journey after the Dominion War ended. Some follow the adventures of various Starfleet ships exploring the Gamma Quadrant. One book is about how some of Alpha Quadrant Jem'Hadar broke away from the Dominion and started there own society. There is even a set of novels that follow the advetures of Quark, Grand Nagus Rom and other Ferengi after the Dominion War ends. Some I have read and others I haven't gotten around to yet.

[mckaychick]

what you leave behind was on yesterday???

[Starbase]

what you leave behind was on yesterday???

Yup, Part 2 is on Spike today. Don't miss it McKay Chick.

[Trek_Girl42]

Yup, Part 2 is on Spike today. Don't miss it McKay Chick.

In 23 minutes!

[the Fifth Race]

In 23 minutes!

LOLOL, I got the jump on all of you, I watched it on DVD last night. I have reviewed this episode more than a few times, and each time, I seem to have a slightly different take. I think a lot of that has to do with this wonderful thread and all of the knowledgable Trek brethren that help "make it so". I have absorbed so much from everyone here, that some of my opinions of many things are different, and it seems to change each time I re-watch the entire series. Trust me, this is a good thing!........

I liked this closing chapter in the DS9 saga a great deal. No, it's not perfect. I wouldn't call it the best overall episode of the season. But I would call it a big winner, and probably the most emotion-packed and important DS9 outing of season VII. Even if it can't wrap up every one of a million storylines, it's a captivating ride that does many things.

The episode's got it all: tense action, smart and probing discussions, gripping final showdowns, fulfilled prophecies, tragic consequences, satisfying comeuppance, gut-wrenching suspense, bittersweet goodbyes, some laughter, and plenty of tears. There's a lot here to reflect upon, even though there's the temptation to reflect upon what there wasn't.

This episode has some flaws when considering the very big series-spanning picture. There's the sense that anything less than perfection would seem somehow disappointing because the series is over. The book is closed and what is here is all we have left to answer the many questions DS9 has posed during its run.

I was somewhat disappointed by Damar's death. It comes in an action scene and with very little fanfare. Perhaps that's the point--he died in a routine firefight trying to free Cardassia. Still, as a key element in this arc for the past two months, it's almost as if there simply wasn't time to deal with the death of the man who would've been the leader of a new Cardassia. The notion seemingly is: He's dead; on with the story.

Well, if there's one thing Weyoun and the Dominion haven't learned, it's that their attitude of absolute totalitarian control over such "Dominion puppets" isn't as easy in the Alpha Quadrant as it may have been in the Gamma Quadrant. Just as Weyoun completely misread Damar before his defection, so has he misread the Cardassian population. This is a group that's supposed to be intimidated into submission with threats of annihilation? Cardassian society is as good as dead under Dominion rule, and given Cardassia's proud history, Weyoun's speech is more likely to cause further upheaval, methinks. Needless to say, it's a thrill to watch all of Cardassia begin to finally turn on their supposed ally, an "ally" that assumes its occupied territory's citizens will sit by idly while their interests are being blatantly ignored. Brilliant writing!.

In the end, I think the way Cardassia played into the end of the war is among the most brilliant and well-conveyed of the series' large-scale ideas. Their alliance with the Dominion came under extreme, desperate circumstances; the alliance didn't pan out as I'm sure Dukat had envisioned, and ultimately, Cardassia pays the price and becomes a destroyed, defeated, anguished world with more than 800 million dead. One difficulty in the war storyline has been in showing huge losses in the Federation, simply because the higher powers in the Trek universe dictate (appropriately) that the Federation must survive. Making Cardassia pay the price, especially given how much of them we've seen over the course of the "Final Chapter," is the next best thing dramatically.

And watching Cardassia's fate unfold through Garak's eyes couldn't be more appropriate, because he is the survivor we identify with. He is the one who has longed to return to Cardassia and loved his world for what it was. And his painful, truthful, perceptive discussion with Bashir afterward is one of the highlights of the two hours. His acknowledgement of the oft-unspoken-of Cardassian arrogance that "betrayed the entire Alpha Quadrant" is powerful to hear in actual dialog, and his mix of sadness and anger and ultimately his calm acceptance that "We live in uncertain times" is superbly portrayed by Andrew Robinson. Tragic and beautiful to watch.

Also of interest is Martok's toast over a devastated Cardassia, and Sisko and Ross' refusal to participate. It's almost as if the war's end has brought about a new sobriety concerning the lingering consequences that lie ahead -yet Klingon warriors will celebrate the victory nonetheless. Don't you just love them Klingons. Martok is such an underratted character.

The actual end to the war, not surprisingly, comes with a truce, and not the battle to the last Dominion soldier as the Female Founder initially promises. The nature of the truce makes sense, and builds through Odo's arc involving the Founders' disease, the cure, and the long relationship Odo has with his people.

The fact Odo is able to persuade the Female Founder to surrender is a notion that has numerous implicit possibilities. Over the past few months the Founder has grown increasingly ruthless and impatient. (One argument is that the consequences to the Great Link have become increasingly clear and dire.) The ability for Odo to change her mind by linking with her and offering to cure the Link is something that is completely consistent with the nature of the Founders as we've known them.

I know this rather long winded and took me forever to write. Fact is I have a lot more to say about What You Leave Behind, I will post that tomorrow.

[USS Defiant]

Wow, what a great and detailed review brother Fifth. I know what you mean about covering all the bases in this fine finale that DS9 gave us. I will make mine the readers digest version - short and sweet.

First of all, I loved this show. It was everything Next Generation and Voyager weren't. The characters grew and evolved, the DS9 universe was really created. We got to live outside of the hermetically sealed world of a starship...what a wonderful thing to watch and follow.

Each character was allowed their moment in this finale. Not that they weren't in the other Star trek series. We got to the epic ending of the Dominion way with a few requisite twists, nothing surprisingly spectacular, just good solid ending. The civil war quote from Adm. Ross was a nice and fitting touch.

And...then of course, the finale showdown between Sisko and Dukat. I'm sorry Kahn (Ricardo Montalban), DuKat (Marc Alaimo) is the greatest villian in Star Trek. Sisko's transcendancy was a wonderful peice of the puzzle.

One of the most touching parts of this episode was listening to Vic singing as ever character went through a series of flasbacks as they prepared to move on with their lives. That, tied in with the final scene with Odo and Kira, and then seeing Jake watching the worm hole open and close truly did bring closure and an end to the series.

I guess the thing to say is...this episode really wrapped things up nicely. And I was sad to see them go...repeatedly. So, that either shows me how sensitive I am...or how great an series/episode this was. (Maybe it's both.)

[Starbase]

/\/\ Great reviews you two /\/\ I just got around to re-watching What You Leave Behind this morning. So much going on this series finale, it's hard to comment on everything. I will try to hit on some stuff the both of you didn't cover to much.......DS9's final episode is an emotional, eventful story that covers ground like there's no tomorrow, because there is no tomorrow. Here's an episode that must end a war, tie up numerous threads, and essentially close the book on every recurring DS9 character in existence, not an easy task. I dare say they pulled it off very well.

But at the same time, they could've done some things better. Naturally, with the series now over, there could still be half a season's worth of stories to follow up what happens here. Not everyone is going to be satisfied with what we leave behind (there are of course some issues that go unresolved), but I'd guess a handful of you out there will be. Me, I'm mostly satisfied, although there were some things on the wish list I didn't get.

Perhaps the most interesting series-spanning parallel in What You Leave Behind is that of Cardassia and Bajor. I like the idea of the series ending where it started, with an analysis of Cardassia and Bajor. Society-wise, it would seem this episode is more interested in Cardassia than in Bajor (Bajor has been limited via microcosm to Winn, Sisko, and the Prophet/Pahwraith struggle), but along with the topic comes the full circle that plays into a little bit of everything about these two cultures. I actually felt like I have visited Bajor and Cardassia.

I was ho-hum about the Bashir/Ezri bedroom scene, which seems to exist for confirmation of consummation more than anything else. On the other hand, I did like the subtle shot later on where the two glance worryingly across the bridge seeing if the other has been harmed when the Defiant comes under heavy fire. Nice touch.

There's plenty of crosscutting between the storylines, and since they're all interesting, none of them really trip up any of the others. Indeed, it's a credit to Allan Kroeker's direction that an episode with so much going on proves, surprisingly, mostly dead-on in terms of pacing. The story doesn't feel rushed the way a lot of Big DS9 Episodes in the past have. Fast-paced at times, yes, rushed, no.

Behind the lines are Weyoun and the Female Founder, who share a god/child relationship that we've long since understood, but it benefits here from some interesting dialog. There's the sense that Weyoun's unconditional worship of the Founder often falls on deaf ears, as the Founder has an almost unconscious tendency to cast him aside as an irrelevant servant. Still, though, there's a bond here that seems to be unique, as she confesses at one point that Weyoun is the only solid she has ever come to really trust. These are the types of conversations that make DS9 much more than an exercise in plot and instead a rich character show. She had a look of disgust and almost anquish when Garak killed the last Weyoun.

I must admit I had quite a lump in my throat for most of the final act. The episode gets all the poignant goodbye moments right, whether it's the last crew get-together at Vic's, the wordless O'Brien/Bashir hug-goodbye, or the amusing Quark/Odo banter-goodbye, it was all pulled off with sentiment that proved genuine. The Kira/Odo parting was particularly romantic and moving, with the visual of Odo returning to the Link providing almost a storybook finish to their relationship, I found it quite touching. Kudos, of course, go out to Visitor and Auberjonois, who play their characters with all the right notes.

[the Fifth Race]

Wow, what a great and detailed review brother Fifth. I know what you mean about covering all the bases in this fine finale that DS9 gave us. I will make mine the readers digest version - short and sweet.

Thanx brother Defiant. I could have written another few paragraphs easily on What You Leave Behind.

First of all, I loved this show. It was everything Next Generation and Voyager weren't. The characters grew and evolved, the DS9 universe was really created. We got to live outside of the hermetically sealed world of a starship...what a wonderful thing to watch and follow.

Well said. I found following a series on a space station a lot more interesting than I originally thought when I first read about what DS9 was going to be about. Characters were given a much better chance to develop on DS9 compared to other Trek series'. I especially appreciated the vast array of non Starfleet characters that we got to know, love and hate.

Each character was allowed their moment in this finale. Not that they weren't in the other Star trek series. We got to the epic ending of the Dominion way with a few requisite twists, nothing surprisingly spectacular, just good solid ending. The civil war quote from Adm. Ross was a nice and fitting touch.

That scene towards the end of What You Leave Behind where the female founder signs the declaration of surrender with Martok, Sisko, Ross, Odo, Worf, the Romulans and other personnel standing or sitting around the table was a very powerful and moving scene. I also loved the little send off they did involving Vic and the holosuite with each character.

And...then of course, the finale showdown between Sisko and Dukat. I'm sorry Kahn (Ricardo Montalban), DuKat (Marc Alaimo) is the greatest villain in Star Trek. Sisko's transcendence was a wonderful piece of the puzzle.

You get no argument from me my friend. - Dukat definetly goes down as not only the greatest Star Trek villain, but one of the best written, portrayed and acted characters period!.

I guess the thing to say is...this episode really wrapped things up nicely. And I was sad to see them go...repeatedly. So, that either shows me how sensitive I am...or how great an series/episode this was. (Maybe it's both.)

LOL, well said.