Deep Space 9 Superior

[Whitestar]

I was never a big fan of TNG. Picard just wasn't "captain" material to me. I also found Data to be very irritating (I like true "comic" characters, not simply annoying ones like Data or McKay from Stargate Atlantis) and Wesley was too whiney. I felt Riker could have had more of a "role" and thought Geordie got promoted to chief engineer too fast. The show never really caught my imagination, I only watched it because it was part of the trek franchise. They put my favorite TNG character , Worf, on DS9 so I was very happy!

My older sisters watched the monkees every week..... "hey hey we're the monkees......

I agreed with everything you said, particularly about Data being annoying at times, except about Picard not being captain material. Could you elaborate on that?

[Starbase]

I was never a big fan of TNG. Picard just wasn't "captain" material to me. I also found Data to be very irritating (I like true "comic" characters, not simply annoying ones like Data or McKay from Stargate Atlantis) and Wesley was too whiney. I felt Riker could have had more of a "role" and thought Geordie got promoted to chief engineer too fast. The show never really caught my imagination, I only watched it because it was part of the trek franchise. They put my favorite TNG character , Worf, on DS9 so I was very happy!

TNG is not at the top of list as far as favorite Trek series go (I rank it 3rd best). I found Data's struggle with trying to more human quite fascinating at times. A lot of great episodes came out of that storyline for Data. Picard to me, was the consummate captain, sure he was annoying at times and way to Starfleet stiff for my taste, but he sured seemed like the kind of Captain I would want leading me into battle. TNG did get much better in the later seasons.

I agree with you about Worf!. He was so awesome on DS9, and so was O'Brien for that matter. DS9 gave them so much more to work with and they didn't disappoint, they both shined big time!. TNG definetly dropped the ball with those two.

My older sisters watched the monkees every week..... "hey hey we're the monkees......

Deep sailing Monkey around, were to busy singing, to put anybody dooooown, Hey Hey with the Monkees.

[USS Defiant]

WooooooooHooooooo Sharks

DS9 season
The Vortex:
In what is perhaps the best episode since the pilot, a wanted man from the Gamma Quadrant named Croden (Cliff DeYoung) kills a Miradorn in self defense following a botched theft attempt. Odo throws Croden in a cell and prepares to release him to the authorities of his home world.

Vortex is the first episode to deeply examine the unknowns of Odo's mysterious origins, and the result is a powerful character episode that successfully gets into the crux of the constable's loneliness and his quest for people like him. Croden capitalizes on Odo's loneliness by telling him a number of "Changeling tales" that may or may not be part of his web of dissembling lies - hoping to take advantage of the constable's Achilles heel. Cliff DeYoung effectively forces our perception of the situation to remain in stagnant neutrality between Croden and Odo. DeYoung brings a sense of ineptitude to his character's criminal activities that makes his motives seem as sincere as they later turn out to be--but without totally winning our trust in the meantime. What also works, surprisingly enough, is an action subplot involving the dead Miradorn's vengeful twin brother Ah-Kel (Randy Oglesby) chasing after Croden and Odo's Runabout to kill his brother's murderer. Most of this works because of the extremely high quality of the production. The special effects are outstanding, as Odo and Croden attempt to elude Ah-Kel by traveling through a dangerous, volatile vortex that looks really neat. The conclusion, which uncovers all the reasons behind Croden's lies and deceit - his need to retrieve his hidden daughter from a planet in the vortex--is a touching sentiment. When all is said and done Vortex is an episode that works wonders on many levels. There are interesting suppositions about Odo's origin with engrossing character impacts, a good action plot, terrific production values, interesting performances, and affecting drama.

[Rac80]

I agreed with everything you said, particularly about Data being annoying at times, except about Picard not being captain material. Could you elaborate on that?

I come from a military background and every commander I ever encountered (including dear old dad) had a commanding "presence". patrick stewart just doesn't come across as a "commander", he always seemed to be more of a bureaucrat... you know the guys that work in the pentagon . Great at following protocols but never think outside the box. They can talk the talk but are not able to see the big picture. He was never willing to "break rules that needed to be broken" and did not seem to have inner guiding principles beyond the Starfleet rule book. That is just IMHO.

[Rac80]

Deep sailing Monkey around, were to busy singing, to put anybody dooooown, Hey Hey with the Monkees.

Oh how we mutilate song lyrics when we are children...
it is :
hey hey we're the monkees 'cause people say we monkey around, but we're too busy singing to put anybody down. good try though

WooooooooHooooooo Sharks

DS9 season
The Vortex:
In what is perhaps the best episode since the pilot, a wanted man from the Gamma Quadrant named Croden (Cliff DeYoung) kills a Miradorn in self defense following a botched theft attempt. Odo throws Croden in a cell and prepares to release him to the authorities of his home world.

Vortex is the first episode to deeply examine the unknowns of Odo's mysterious origins, and the result is a powerful character episode that successfully gets into the crux of the constable's loneliness and his quest for people like him. Croden capitalizes on Odo's loneliness by telling him a number of "Changeling tales" that may or may not be part of his web of dissembling lies - hoping to take advantage of the constable's Achilles heel. Cliff DeYoung effectively forces our perception of the situation to remain in stagnant neutrality between Croden and Odo. DeYoung brings a sense of ineptitude to his character's criminal activities that makes his motives seem as sincere as they later turn out to be--but without totally winning our trust in the meantime. What also works, surprisingly enough, is an action subplot involving the dead Miradorn's vengeful twin brother Ah-Kel (Randy Oglesby) chasing after Croden and Odo's Runabout to kill his brother's murderer. Most of this works because of the extremely high quality of the production. The special effects are outstanding, as Odo and Croden attempt to elude Ah-Kel by traveling through a dangerous, volatile vortex that looks really neat. The conclusion, which uncovers all the reasons behind Croden's lies and deceit - his need to retrieve his hidden daughter from a planet in the vortex--is a touching sentiment. When all is said and done Vortex is an episode that works wonders on many levels. There are interesting suppositions about Odo's origin with engrossing character impacts, a good action plot, terrific production values, interesting performances, and affecting drama.

This too was one of my favorite episodes. I thought the character development for Odo was wonderful. It was good to see Odo show compassion for Croden despite croden's lies.

[the Fifth Race]

patrick stewart just doesn't come across as a "commander", he always seemed to be more of a bureaucrat... you know the guys that work in the pentagon . Great at following protocols but never think outside the box. They can talk the talk but are not able to see the big picture. He was never willing to "break rules that needed to be broken" and did not seem to have inner guiding principles beyond the Starfleet rule book. That is just IMHO.

Hmmm, interesting take on Picard Rac80. Most all of the Starfleet Captains we have seen over the entire Trek franchise were polar opposites of Picard. You make a valid arguement. And I would agree for the most part up until Picard became Locutus of Borg, After that ordeal he went through he seemed to become much more hardened and willing "to think outside the box". Picard probably would have made a better Admiral than Captain.

Oh how we mutilate song lyrics when we are children...
it is :
hey hey we're the monkees 'cause people say we monkey around, but we're too busy singing to put anybody down. good try though

LOLOL, I have heard my good friend Starbase sing before, the guy would butcher 'twinkle twinkle little star' if you asked him to sing it.

This too was one of my favorite episodes. I thought the character development for Odo was wonderful. It was good to see Odo show compassion for Croden despite croden's lies.

Vortex was one of the better season I episodes. It was basically Odo's first dedicated episode that went along way into giving and inside into his character. The plot-lines were a little too busy for my tastes and went around in too many circles - Crodin had too many enemies both on and off the station, plus there was a lengthy subplot about potential shady dealings between Quark and the aliens which never amounted to anything. And we got no real resolution to the question of whether Crodin had lied about his suspicions of other changelings, or his real reasons for being a wanted man.

Nonetheless "Vortex" was eerily compelling, and let us see an emotional side of Odo which would seem to be at odds with his usual rational demeanor; I was very surprised that he let Crodon go with so little information about whether he was, in fact, a dangerous criminal, particularly after the man held out as false bait the one thing in the universe Odo really wants. The actor portraying Crodin was skilled and subtle, leading us to believe he wasn't really as lackadaisical as he seemed in jail yet never appearing truly menacing. I liked the dynamic between himself and Odo.

[Rac80]

Hmmm, interesting take on Picard Rac80. Most all of the Starfleet Captains we have seen over the entire Trek franchise were polar opposites of Picard. You make a valid arguement. And I would agree for the most part up until Picard became Locutus of Borg, After that ordeal he went through he seemed to become much more hardened and willing "to think outside the box". Picard probably would have made a better Admiral than Captain.

Most people I know consider an admiral (especially one stationed at headquarters) to simply be a bureaucrat. A friend of my dad's always said the good captains don't become admirals....the incompetent ones do. I didn't like the first few episodes after Picard was no longer locutus. He seemed so unsure and fragile...even less "captain-like". He did toughen up after a while though and I think it improved his character overall.

Vortex was one of the better season I episodes. It was basically Odo's first dedicated episode that went along way into giving and inside into his character. The plot-lines were a little too busy for my tastes and went around in too many circles - Crodin had too many enemies both on and off the station, plus there was a lengthy subplot about potential shady dealings between Quark and the aliens which never amounted to anything. And we got no real resolution to the question of whether Crodin had lied about his suspicions of other changelings, or his real reasons for being a wanted man.

Nonetheless "Vortex" was eerily compelling, and let us see an emotional side of Odo which would seem to be at odds with his usual rational demeanor; I was very surprised that he let Crodon go with so little information about whether he was, in fact, a dangerous criminal, particularly after the man held out as false bait the one thing in the universe Odo really wants. The actor portraying Crodin was skilled and subtle, leading us to believe he wasn't really as lackadaisical as he seemed in jail yet never appearing truly menacing. I liked the dynamic between himself and Odo.

I felt the subplot was put in mainly to emphasise that quark was always up to something. There were a number of episodes where the background subplots were simply to keep quark fully ferengi ( i.e. shady )
I also felt that since Odo had been the "constable" of the station for many years, he probably has a very good "read" of people and saw that Croden's main concern was for his child. Cliff Young, who played Croden, is very good at portraying morally ambiguous characters. He is always interesting to watch.

[Starbase]

Most people I know consider an admiral (especially one stationed at headquarters) to simply be a bureaucrat. A friend of my dad's always said the good captains don't become admirals....the incompetent ones do. I didn't like the first few episodes after Picard was no longer locutus. He seemed so unsure and fragile...even less "captain-like". He did toughen up after a while though and I think it improved his character overall.

The Starfleet admirals we have seen from the various Trek series and movies have been rather stiff and "bureaucratic". Especially the Admirals we encountered on TNG. The only real Admiral I admired was Adm. Ross from DS9 - he wasn't afraid to think outside the box or recruit people that were willing to think outside for him. He took a lot of chances, although when in desperate times during war were your survival is in danger, anything goes.

I felt the subplot was put in mainly to emphasise that quark was always up to something. There were a number of episodes where the background subplots were simply to keep quark fully ferengi ( i.e. shady )
I also felt that since Odo had been the "constable" of the station for many years, he probably has a very good "read" of people and saw that Croden's main concern was for his child. Cliff Young, who played Croden, is very good at portraying morally ambiguous characters. He is always interesting to watch.

I find it kind of ironic that Sisko even allowed Quark to remain on DS9 considering his past record. I know they made mention to the fact that Quarks was always popular during the Cardassian occupation and Sisko wanted to maintain some sense of familiarity and normalcy when Starfleet took over DS9. Thank God Quark remained, he in in my top 5 of favorite characters from all the Trek series.

Cliff Young is a great character actor. I have admired his work on many television shows and movies over the years. Some of the more memorable character he played were - Col. James M Montgomery from the great movie Glory .... Carlton Reid from Murder She Wrote .... Dr. Jay Newman from the pilot episode of X-Files .... District Atty. West from The Practice .... Chuck De Palma from JAG .... Rueben Banks from Nash Bridges .... and the last thing I saw him in was where he played Charlie Miller in an episode of Threshold.

[USS Defiant]

The only real Admiral I admired was Adm. Ross from DS9 - he wasn't afraid to think outside the box or recruit people that were willing to think outside for him. He took a lot of chances, although when in desperate times during war were your survival is in danger, anything goes.

I am also a big fan of Adm. Ross, he definetly was not your typical Admiral, although being in charge of Dominion War operations kind of forces you to "think outside the box" and do things that you normally would never do in peace time. There were a handful of great DS9 after-launch novels that followed the adventures of Admiral Ross after the Dominion War conflict, including an incident involving the death of Bolian President Min Zife that resulted in Adm. Ross' resignation from Starfleet in 2380.

My favorite Admiral from any scifi series was Martok. Martok also appears in quite a few DS9 novels that follow him after the Dominion War. For those BSG fans out there, Ronald D. Moore named an area of land on Caprica Martok Valley, obviously to honor the Martok character.

Cliff Young is a great character actor. I have admired his work on many television shows and movies over the years. Some of the more memorable character he played were - Col. James M Montgomery from the great movie Glory .... Carlton Reid from Murder She Wrote .... Dr. Jay Newman from the pilot episode of X-Files .... District Atty. West from The Practice .... Chuck De Palma from JAG .... Rueben Banks from Nash Bridges .... and the last thing I saw him in was where he played Charlie Miller in an episode of Threshold.

So that guy played Croden. After reading through his IMBd and seeing his body of work, I remember him in quite a few of his many many roles over the years (very impressive). He was particulary good as Col. Montgomery in the truly great civil war classic movie Glory.

[Trek_Girl42]

I am also a big fan of Adm. Ross, he definetly was not your typical Admiral, although being in charge of Dominion War operations kind of forces you to "think outside the box" and do things that you normally would never do in peace time. There were a handful of great DS9 after-launch novels that followed the adventures of Admiral Ross after the Dominion War conflict, including an incident involving the death of Bolian President Min Zife that resulted in Adm. Ross' resignation from Starfleet in 2380.

My favorite Admiral from any scifi series was Martok. Martok also appears in quite a few DS9 novels that follow him after the Dominion War. For those BSG fans out there, Ronald D. Moore named an area of land on Caprica Martok Valley, obviously to honor the Martok character.

So that guy played Croden. After reading through his IMBd and seeing his body of work, I remember him in quite a few of his many many roles over the years (very impressive). He was particulary good as Col. Montgomery in the truly great civil war classic movie Glory.

Admiral Ross was a great character. And possibley the only sane Admiral in Starfleet. I really like how they kept the same Admiral for so many of their dealings on DS9- TNG kinda started to get that admiral-of-the-week feel as we saw so many different ones, and never really developed any attatchment to the characters. Though I think Admiral Nachayev(sp?) was in quite a few eps? Can't remember exactly.

Never knew about "Martok Valley".....where do you find that out?

[the Fifth Race]

Admiral Ross was a great character. And possibley the only sane Admiral in Starfleet. I really like how they kept the same Admiral for so many of their dealings on DS9- TNG kinda started to get that admiral-of-the-week feel as we saw so many different ones, and never really developed any attatchment to the characters. Though I think Admiral Nachayev(sp?) was in quite a few eps? Can't remember exactly.

The powers that be with DS9 wrote the storyline as such that Adm. Ross would be the head honcho (Vice Admiral) in charge of all operations involving the Dominion War. This is common practice in real life conflicts where an alliance of different nations are involved as allies. They will pick one supreme commander to make all the decisions for everyone, no matter what country or race there from.

Ahh, the indomitable Adm. Alynna Nechayev - the bane of Catain Picard. She was a firecracker. Natalia Nogulich portrayed the part of Nechayev beautifully. She appreared in 4 TNG and 4 DS9 episodes each. She was fairly involved with the Dominion War because of her expertise in dealing with the Cardassians and the fact that she is a great battle ready commander. She lead a couple different Starships into battle against the Dominion.

Never knew about "Martok Valley".....where do you find that out?

In a presentation to Commander William Adama and President Laura Roslin, in the episode Pegasus: Extended Version - Lieutenant Kara Thrace tells them that the "seven Raptors will jump above Martok valley", as part of her planned SAR mission to Caprica to retrieve Samuel Anders and other survivors. Very cool, Ronald D Moore showing some love for DS9. I have read a few times where RDM stated that Martok was one of his favorite Trek characters.

How About them Sharks
I wish you guys luck tonight Lady Trek. I believe the way the playoff bracket is set-up. We (Sharks) - play the the Red Wings if they take there series with Calgary. If Calgary wins and depending on what happens with your series, it is still up in the air as to who will play whom.

[Rac80]

My favorite Admiral from any scifi series was Martok. Martok also appears in quite a few DS9 novels that follow him after the Dominion War. For those BSG fans out there, Ronald D. Moore named an area of land on Caprica Martok Valley, obviously to honor the Martok character.

I too loved Martok and was so shocked when it was revealed ("in Purgatory's Shadow") that he was a changeling. I thought the episodes leading up to the denouement were incredibly well-written. The later episodes featuring the "real" Martok were wonderful, especially when he becomes chancellor (tacking into the wind). The writers and the actor did a wonderful job of making the "real" Martok different from the changling Martok without changing any essentials of the character.

Admiral Ross was a great character. And possibley the only sane Admiral in Starfleet. I really like how they kept the same Admiral for so many of their dealings on DS9- TNG kinda started to get that admiral-of-the-week feel as we saw so many different ones, and never really developed any attatchment to the characters.

And most of the ones we met were a bit short of a happy meal (Adm Satie in The drumhead) or not operating under their own steam (Adm. Gregory Quinn in Conspiracy). Compared to THEM, picard looked positively inspired.

[the Fifth Race]

I too loved Martok and was so shocked when it was revealed ("in Purgatory's Shadow") that he was a changeling. I thought the episodes leading up to the denouement were incredibly well-written. The later episodes featuring the "real" Martok were wonderful, especially when he becomes chancellor (tacking into the wind). The writers and the actor did a wonderful job of making the "real" Martok different from the changling Martok without changing any essentials of the character.

The season V episode In Purgatory's Shadow is one truly great episode from any television show, definetly one of the best of the series. Martok's presence is one of many very nice and intelligent touches to the episode. It builds upon past stories (like "Apocalypse Rising" and "Way of the Warrior") and brings new realizations to the surface. For example, one disturbing point that comes to mind is that the blood screenings Starfleet uses to detect Changelings may very well be useless. If Martok was replaced two years ago, it would've presumably been before "Way of the Warrior" - in which case the Martok who performed his own blood screening in that episode to "prove" he was the genuine article was really, in fact, a very clever shapeshifter.

Perhaps the biggest plot surprise is dear Doctor Bashir. Bashir turns out to be in this prison - because he himself has been replaced by a shapeshifter. The Bashir on the station is a Changeling spy who has been there for, as Bashir says, over a month. Upon this revelation I was sincerely shocked when originally watching it. It was a brave move on the writers' part that turned out brilliantly.

[Trek_Girl42]

The powers that be with DS9 wrote the storyline as such that Adm. Ross would be the head honcho (Vice Admiral) in charge of all operations involving the Dominion War. This is common practice in real life conflicts where an alliance of different nations are involved as allies. They will pick one supreme commander to make all the decisions for everyone, no matter what country or race there from.

Ahh, the indomitable Adm. Alynna Nechayev - the bane of Catain Picard. She was a firecracker. Natalia Nogulich portrayed the part of Nechayev beautifully. She appreared in 4 TNG and 4 DS9 episodes each. She was fairly involved with the Dominion War because of her expertise in dealing with the Cardassians and the fact that she is a great battle ready commander. She lead a couple different Starships into battle against the Dominion.


In a presentation to Commander William Adama and President Laura Roslin, in the episode Pegasus: Extended Version - Lieutenant Kara Thrace tells them that the "seven Raptors will jump above Martok valley", as part of her planned SAR mission to Caprica to retrieve Samuel Anders and other survivors. Very cool, Ronald D Moore showing some love for DS9. I have read a few times where RDM stated that Martok was one of his favorite Trek characters.

How About them Sharks
I wish you guys luck tonight Lady Trek. I believe the way the playoff bracket is set-up. We (Sharks) - play the the Red Wings if they take there series with Calgary. If Calgary wins and depending on what happens with your series, it is still up in the air as to who will play whom.

Good on the Sharks! Yesterday was actually the first day in a couple weeks that I watched absolutely no hockey. Felt strange.

I'll have to check out that Pegasus extended version again- I think I've only watch the extended one once. Pretty cool of RDM.

I too loved Martok and was so shocked when it was revealed ("in Purgatory's Shadow") that he was a changeling. I thought the episodes leading up to the denouement were incredibly well-written. The later episodes featuring the "real" Martok were wonderful, especially when he becomes chancellor (tacking into the wind). The writers and the actor did a wonderful job of making the "real" Martok different from the changling Martok without changing any essentials of the character.



And most of the ones we met were a bit short of a happy meal (Adm Satie in The drumhead) or not operating under their own steam (Adm. Gregory Quinn in Conspiracy). Compared to THEM, picard looked positively inspired.

Admiral Satie.....she was a bit of a looney.....and we can't forget that Admiral from insurrection (forget his name). Crazies, most of them.

The season V episode In Purgatory's Shadow is one truly great episode from any television show, definetly one of the best of the series. Martok's presence is one of many very nice and intelligent touches to the episode. It builds upon past stories (like "Apocalypse Rising" and "Way of the Warrior") and brings new realizations to the surface. For example, one disturbing point that comes to mind is that the blood screenings Starfleet uses to detect Changelings may very well be useless. If Martok was replaced two years ago, it would've presumably been before "Way of the Warrior" - in which case the Martok who performed his own blood screening in that episode to "prove" he was the genuine article was really, in fact, a very clever shapeshifter.

Perhaps the biggest plot surprise is dear Doctor Bashir. Bashir turns out to be in this prison - because he himself has been replaced by a shapeshifter. The Bashir on the station is a Changeling spy who has been there for, as Bashir says, over a month. Upon this revelation I was sincerely shocked when originally watching it. It was a brave move on the writers' part that turned out brilliantly.

That reveal of Bashir.....I never suspected a thing, they did such a great job misleading us with these hidden changelings, the whole thing with Bashir was great, and I loved that episode where he was in the prison with Martok and Garek.....poor Garek and his claustrophobia.

[Rac80]

The season V episode In Purgatory's Shadow is one truly great episode from any television show, definetly one of the best of the series. Martok's presence is one of many very nice and intelligent touches to the episode. It builds upon past stories (like "Apocalypse Rising" and "Way of the Warrior") and brings new realizations to the surface. For example, one disturbing point that comes to mind is that the blood screenings Starfleet uses to detect Changelings may very well be useless. If Martok was replaced two years ago, it would've presumably been before "Way of the Warrior" - in which case the Martok who performed his own blood screening in that episode to "prove" he was the genuine article was really, in fact, a very clever shapeshifter.

Perhaps the biggest plot surprise is dear Doctor Bashir. Bashir turns out to be in this prison - because he himself has been replaced by a shapeshifter. The Bashir on the station is a Changeling spy who has been there for, as Bashir says, over a month. Upon this revelation I was sincerely shocked when originally watching it. It was a brave move on the writers' part that turned out brilliantly.

Admiral Satie.....she was a bit of a looney.....and we can't forget that Admiral from insurrection (forget his name). Crazies, most of them.


That reveal of Bashir.....I never suspected a thing, they did such a great job misleading us with these hidden changelings, the whole thing with Bashir was great, and I loved that episode where he was in the prison with Martok and Garek.....poor Garek and his claustrophobia.

I will have to admit the two episodes (in purgatory's shadow and by inferno's light) about the changling substitutions are my favorite episodes in DS9. Seeing garak face his fears, the truth about martok and bashir, and worf's nobility make these two simply exceptional episodes. Garak was a very intriguing character and the actor obviously relished his role! DS9 truly had some great writing.