Avengers: Endgame Post Viewing MAJOR SPOILERS Thread

[P-90_177]

So, here's my thought processes on those things...


IM2/TIH/Consultant: It's not just the 'Culver University incident' we see in the background in IM2, which I would agree is not conclusive. There's also that, at the end of IM2, Fury 'downgrades' Stark to being a 'consultant.' In The Consultant, which I have replacing the TIH credits scene, "a consultant" is exactly how Tony identifies his role, when Ross starts questioning him in the bar.

I also like that The Consultant neatly identifies that Abomination is still around but locked up, and in the course of the story, completely takes him off the board for pretty well any future stories; so The Consultant pretty neatly ties into both Iron Man 2, TIH, and answers a dangling plot thread to explain away why we've never seen Abomination again.

Ultimately though I suppose it doesn't make a huge amount of difference, since the three movies in this period are more or less concurrent. There's no especially compelling reason why TIH (the film itself, rather than the credits scene) couldn't have started say a week before Iron Man 2, concluded at roughly the same time, and then have The Consultant happen after both films.


Regarding Guardians 1 and 2 -- and completely ignoring for a moment that Marvel's 'official' timeline puts them together, because I find their official timeline slightly dodgy...to me, the key timeline identifier is Groot. When we leave the gang at the end of the first film, he's just a baby, not much more than a sapling. When we meet up with the crew again in Guardians 2, Groot is still just a baby. He's out of the pot now, but still tiny and baby-ish. Fast forward to Infinity War (or the credits scene I choose to bump forward) and suddenly he's big, a teen. He goes from being little more than a sapling to being a teen in just four years, meaning he grows very very quicky. So in order for him to be Baby Groot in Guardians 2, I think it works better if it's in fairly close proximity to Guardians 1, rather than a year or more down the line.

He’s also an alien tree. I’m not sure you need to assign that much logic to groot.

[DigiFluid]

So, here's my thought processes on those things...


IM2/TIH/Consultant: It's not just the 'Culver University incident' we see in the background in IM2, which I would agree is not conclusive. There's also that, at the end of IM2, Fury 'downgrades' Stark to being a 'consultant.' In The Consultant, which I have replacing the TIH credits scene, "a consultant" is exactly how Tony identifies his role, when Ross starts questioning him in the bar.

I also like that The Consultant neatly identifies that Abomination is still around but locked up, and in the course of the story, completely takes him off the board for pretty well any future stories; so The Consultant pretty neatly ties into both Iron Man 2, TIH, and answers a dangling plot thread to explain away why we've never seen Abomination again.

Ultimately though I suppose it doesn't make a huge amount of difference, since the three movies in this period are more or less concurrent. There's no especially compelling reason why TIH (the film itself, rather than the credits scene) couldn't have started say a week before Iron Man 2, concluded at roughly the same time, and then have The Consultant happen after both films.


Regarding Guardians 1 and 2 -- and completely ignoring for a moment that Marvel's 'official' timeline puts them together, because I find their official timeline slightly dodgy...to me, the key timeline identifier is Groot. When we leave the gang at the end of the first film, he's just a baby, not much more than a sapling. When we meet up with the crew again in Guardians 2, Groot is still just a baby. He's out of the pot now, but still tiny and baby-ish. Fast forward to Infinity War (or the credits scene I choose to bump forward) and suddenly he's big, a teen. He goes from being little more than a sapling to being a teen in just four years, meaning he grows very very quicky. So in order for him to be Baby Groot in Guardians 2, I think it works better if it's in fairly close proximity to Guardians 1, rather than a year or more down the line.

[P-90_177]

Alright, here's my read of chronology that only includes movies and One-Shots (basically, completely ignoring TV) :


Captain America: The First Avenger (full film)
CA: TFA - SKIP credits scene entirely, as it repeats in The Avengers.
OPTIONAL: Skip opening/closing scenes of TFA entirely, watch them just before The Avengers.
One-Shot: Agent Carter
Captain Marvel (full film)
Captain Marvel - Credits scene 2: Goose coughs up the Tesseract.
Iron Man (full film)
Iron Man - Credits scene: Meeting Nick Fury.
Iron Man 2 (full film) *
Iron Man 2 - SKIP credits scene entirely, in favour of:
One-Shot: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer *
The Incredible Hulk (full film) *
The Incredible Hulk - SKIP credits scene entirely, in favour of:
One-Shot: The Consultant *
Thor (full film) *
Thor - Credits scene: Loki begins mentally dominating Erik Selvig.
The Avengers (full film)
The Avengers - Credits scene 2: The gang eating shawarmas shortly after the battle.
The Avengers - Credits scene 1: The Other informs Thanos of Loki's defeat.
OPTIONAL: Slot the beginning of Spider-Man: Homecoming in here.
One-Shot: Item 47
Iron Man 3 (full film)
Iron Man 3 - Credits scene: Banner is not a psychologist.
One-Shot: All Hail the King

Thor: The Dark World (full film)
Thor: TDW - Credits scene 1: Turning the Aether over to the Collector.
Thor: TDW - Credits scene 2: Thor comes back to Earth for Jane.
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (full film)
CA: TWS - Credits scene 1: Strucker, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch.
CA: TWS - Credits scene 2: Bucky goes to the Smithsonian.
Guardians of the Galaxy (full film)
Guardians - Credits scene 1: Dancing Baby Groot.
Guardians - Credits scene 2: Howard the Duck.
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (full film)
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 1: Kraglin trying to learn how to use the arrow.
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 2: The Ravagers.
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 3: The creation of Adam Warlock.
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 5: Stan Lee as a Watcher.**
Avengers: Age of Ultron (full film)
Avengers: AOU - Credits scene: Thanos's "fine, I'll do it myself."
Ant-Man (full film)
Ant-Man - Credits scene 1 - Hank shows Hope the Wasp suit.
Ant-Man - SKIP credits scene 2, as it repeats in Civil War.

Captain America: Civil War (full film)
Captain America: CW - Credits scene 1: Taking Bucky to Wakanda.
Captain America: CW - Credits scene 2: Peter back in Queens.
Black Panther (full film)
Black Panther - Credits scene 1: T'Challa before the United Nations.
Black Panther - Credits scene 2: Bucky awakens in Wakanda.***
Spider-Man: Homecoming (full film)
Spider-Man: HC - Credits scene 1: Toomes and Mac Gargan in prison.
Spider-Man: HC - SKIP credits scene 2: it's a real-world gag scene, not in-universe.
Doctor Strange (full film)
Doctor Strange - SKIP credits scene 1: as it repeats in Ragnarok.
Doctor Strange - Credits scene 2: Mordo has become a villain.
Ant-Man and the Wasp (full film)
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 4: Teen Groot is obnoxious.
Thor: Ragnarok (full film)
Avengers: Infinity War (full film)
Avengers: IW - Credits scene: Maria Hill and Nick Fury are dusted.
Ant-Man/Wasp - Credits scene 1: The Pyms/Van Dynes are dusted.
Ant-Man/Wasp - Credits scene 2: Big ant drums while alarms blaring (presumably from the snap).
Captain Marvel - Credits scene 1: Carol at the Avengers base demanding to know where Fury is.
Avengers: Endgame (full film)



*Technically all of these stories happen either at the same time or within hours/days of each other, so there's some wiggle room.

**I'm really torn on placement of this one, because it could go pretty much anywhere.

***This one could potentially also move up closer to Infinity War

I’d still stick Incredible Hulk between iron man 1 and 2 and ignore that particular end credits scene entirely since it doesn’t really fit in continuity now.

Also i’d Stick GotG vol 2 after Age of Ultron. Possibly straight after Ant Man since there is an implication of a good amount of time passing between the two films.

[DigiFluid]

Alright, here's my read of chronology that only includes movies and One-Shots (basically, completely ignoring TV) :


Captain America: The First Avenger (full film)
CA: TFA - SKIP credits scene entirely, as it repeats in The Avengers.
OPTIONAL: Skip opening/closing scenes of TFA entirely, watch them just before The Avengers.
One-Shot: Agent Carter
Captain Marvel (full film)
Captain Marvel - Credits scene 2: Goose coughs up the Tesseract.
Iron Man (full film)
Iron Man - Credits scene: Meeting Nick Fury.
Iron Man 2 (full film) *
Iron Man 2 - SKIP credits scene entirely, in favour of:
One-Shot: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer *
The Incredible Hulk (full film) *
The Incredible Hulk - SKIP credits scene entirely, in favour of:
One-Shot: The Consultant *
Thor (full film) *
Thor - Credits scene: Loki begins mentally dominating Erik Selvig.
The Avengers (full film)
The Avengers - Credits scene 2: The gang eating shawarmas shortly after the battle.
The Avengers - Credits scene 1: The Other informs Thanos of Loki's defeat.
OPTIONAL: Slot the beginning of Spider-Man: Homecoming in here.
One-Shot: Item 47
Iron Man 3 (full film)
Iron Man 3 - Credits scene: Banner is not a psychologist.
One-Shot: All Hail the King

Thor: The Dark World (full film)
Thor: TDW - Credits scene 1: Turning the Aether over to the Collector.
Thor: TDW - Credits scene 2: Thor comes back to Earth for Jane.
Captain America: The Winter Soldier (full film)
CA: TWS - Credits scene 1: Strucker, Quicksilver, and Scarlet Witch.
CA: TWS - Credits scene 2: Bucky goes to the Smithsonian.
Guardians of the Galaxy (full film)
Guardians - Credits scene 1: Dancing Baby Groot.
Guardians - Credits scene 2: Howard the Duck.
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (full film)
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 1: Kraglin trying to learn how to use the arrow.
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 2: The Ravagers.
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 3: The creation of Adam Warlock.
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 5: Stan Lee as a Watcher.**
Avengers: Age of Ultron (full film)
Avengers: AOU - Credits scene: Thanos's "fine, I'll do it myself."
Ant-Man (full film)
Ant-Man - Credits scene 1 - Hank shows Hope the Wasp suit.
Ant-Man - SKIP credits scene 2, as it repeats in Civil War.

Captain America: Civil War (full film)
Captain America: CW - Credits scene 1: Taking Bucky to Wakanda.
Captain America: CW - Credits scene 2: Peter back in Queens.
Black Panther (full film)
Black Panther - Credits scene 1: T'Challa before the United Nations.
Black Panther - Credits scene 2: Bucky awakens in Wakanda.***
Spider-Man: Homecoming (full film)
Spider-Man: HC - Credits scene 1: Toomes and Mac Gargan in prison.
Spider-Man: HC - SKIP credits scene 2: it's a real-world gag scene, not in-universe.
Doctor Strange (full film)
Doctor Strange - SKIP credits scene 1: as it repeats in Ragnarok.
Doctor Strange - Credits scene 2: Mordo has become a villain.
Ant-Man and the Wasp (full film)
Guardians 2 - Credits scene 4: Teen Groot is obnoxious.
Thor: Ragnarok (full film)
Avengers: Infinity War (full film)
Avengers: IW - Credits scene: Maria Hill and Nick Fury are dusted.
Ant-Man/Wasp - Credits scene 1: The Pyms/Van Dynes are dusted.
Ant-Man/Wasp - Credits scene 2: Big ant drums while alarms blaring (presumably from the snap).
Captain Marvel - Credits scene 1: Carol at the Avengers base demanding to know where Fury is.
Avengers: Endgame (full film)



*Technically all of these stories happen either at the same time or within hours/days of each other, so there's some wiggle room.

**I'm really torn on placement of this one, because it could go pretty much anywhere.

***This one could potentially also move up closer to Infinity War

[DigiFluid]

Something tells me that'll never happen, but it would be nice. I'd especially like it if the credits scenes that are just chopped down versions of other scenes were excised completely.

[P-90_177]

I did say that's how I chose to watch it, and that it flowed well

I hope one day that they bring out the box sets with the option of watching the post credits scenes at the point when they are supposed to be in the series. As Kevin Smith has said on his YouTube show, it is basically the world’s most expensive television show.

[DigiFluid]

I did say that's how I chose to watch it, and that it flowed well

[P-90_177]

I don't think there's actually anything in Ant-Man and the Wasp that precludes it happening at the same time as Infinity War. Everyone in the movie is so focused on the the quantum realm, and then the chaos in downtown San Francisco, that it's entirely conceivable that the donut attack on New York went completely unnoticed.

When I was doing my pre-Endgame rewatch, I actually moved Ant-Man and the Wasp (sans credit scene) to before Ragnarok. So I did Ant-Man/Wasp, Ragnarok (leads directly into Infinity War), Infinity War, Ant-Man/Wasp credits scene, then went to see Endgame.

I don't really think there's conclusive evidence in either direction, but I find that that watch order flowed pretty well.

Except it can’t be. The past credits sequence when the snap happens shows that the van has been outfitted with a brand new quantum tunnel, Janet is wearing new clothes and is all cleaned up and they’re starting a brand new experiment. That all implies time has elapsed from the movie proper. I mean if i’m Being generous i’d Say at least a week since Hank and the others would need to get the idea to use the van, then construct the quantum tunnel and then plan the experiment. I mean i’d Say that implies closer to a month or two really. Infinity War meanwhile takes place over the course of a couple of days.

[DigiFluid]

The end credits sequence is concurrent certainly cos that happens at the same time as the snap, but we have no idea how long after the movie that credit sequence comes.

I don't think there's actually anything in Ant-Man and the Wasp that precludes it happening at the same time as Infinity War. Everyone in the movie is so focused on the the quantum realm, and then the chaos in downtown San Francisco, that it's entirely conceivable that the donut attack on New York went completely unnoticed.

When I was doing my pre-Endgame rewatch, I actually moved Ant-Man and the Wasp (sans credit scene) to before Ragnarok. So I did Ant-Man/Wasp, Ragnarok (leads directly into Infinity War), Infinity War, Ant-Man/Wasp credits scene, then went to see Endgame.

I don't really think there's conclusive evidence in either direction, but I find that that watch order flowed pretty well.

[P-90_177]

I'd suggest that it's concurrent, but point well made.

The end credits sequence is concurrent certainly cos that happens at the same time as the snap, but we have no idea how long after the movie that credit sequence comes.

[DigiFluid]

I'd suggest that it's concurrent, but point well made.

[Kilgharrah]

Actually Ant Man and the Wasp was set chronologically before Infinity war.

[DigiFluid]

I also think it's a weird quirk that Ant-Man has been the dividing line Avengers movies in recent years....

Like, we got Age of Ultron, then next chronologically was Ant-Man, then next was Civil War (an Avengers movie in all but name). And here in Phase 3, we had Infinity War, next was Ant-Man and the Wasp, followed chronologically by Endgame.

[Kilgharrah]

Exactly! It's only good as a set-up. Other than that, it's just your average movie.

[P-90_177]

Nahhh all it would take would be a little tweaking.

Suppose....Doom's [technobabble machine] is based on research Nazi Hydra had done on a pair of infants (Xavier/Erik) with a peculiar genetic abnormality--a gene that's present in all humans, but only active in one out of every 20 million people or something like that. So mutants have been out there this entire time, but there are just so vanishingly few of them (+ most under Xavier's protection) that they've gone unnoticed by the world until now. Then Doom's [technobabble machine] goes off and causes the X-gene to be activated in 10x as many (or whatever multiplier) as before, so the secret is out and suddenly there are mutants everywhere and tons of possibilities for films about them, and about humanity's hateful/fearful reaction to them.

It's rough, it has holes, but it's workable. And if I, the nerd with zero Hollywood experience, can dream that up in 10 minutes on an internet forum, I'm sure the professionals can come up with something even better.


One particularly glaring catch though, that I think they're probably going to have to deal with: WW2 has gotten too far away from us to use as an origin story. Just by the realities of the passage of time, it really is no longer possible to have Xavier and Erik as children during the war. Even a child born in 1945 (which was my supposition above) would be 73 years old in 2018 (the year of the Snap), so by the time an X-movie comes out five years down the line, the character and actor would already be rapidly closing in on 80, with only one movie completed. They'll have to find some way of shifting the origin forward, in the way that Frank Castle's origin story has shifted forward from Vietnam originally, to Afghanistan for modern readers and audiences.

Yeah I reckon that sounds like the Inhumans arc in SHIELD too. I don’t really see an issue with simply saying that mutants have always existed in the MCU. They just are few in number and keep a low profile. The only reason why Xavier has managed to build up a number of them is because of Cerebro enhancing is abilities and start the film with the X-men already fully realised and developed. Much like Spider-man we already know the backstory so it’s better to just dive right in with Mutants now becoming noticed thanks to the Sokovia accords and the pressure being on for them to be registered and the mutants being like “but wait, we aren’t heroes. We’re just born like this.” And so on. Could even include a nice little nod to the Fox XMen where Xavier And the X-men choose not to register and the government being like “well what are you going to do if we come down there and make you” And Xavier basically repeating the “I have a great swell of pity...” line.

I didn't. I don't think it's very good, and it has a ton of problems, but it's also not actively bad IMO.

Same. It does have its issues but I still rather like it. And I think it does some stuff really well like the scene’s at the party with Thor’s hammer and the whole segment where they hide out at Hawkeye’s house. The Hulk Buster is awesome. And honestly I think James Spader was still an amazing Ultron. I think it falls down in the sense that they needed Age of Ultron to get to Civil War and since Thanos was going to be the big bad the culminate everything they needed to slot in Ultron somewhere as such an iconic Avengers villain.
The film as a whole suffers a lot from middle child syndrome. It’s not as good as Avengers or Infinity War So it just feels forgettable... I mean it is it’s a fairly forgettable movie compared with the others. Especially since around the same phase we also got Iron Man 3, Winter Soldier And Guardians of The a Galaxy. I think thst’s also why Thor 2 falls so flat too. They’re not bad. Simply outclassed.